"at the table none of them are a threat if you are half decent GM"
Oh my dog. The problem is NOT that the player who gamed his stats is too powerful for the dm. The dm just adds more monsters until the encounters are balanced. The dm has no restrictions, so obviously the dm can out powergame the powergamer.
The problem with the player who rerolls characters until he gets two 18's is the rest of the party. Think of the "average" dm. Now realize that HALF of all dms are worse than that. When a below averagd dm (half of all dms), run into a "roll until you get 18's" player, what happens is the DM lets that player run with 18s while the rest of the players tried to keep balanced scores (point buy) for balance BETWEEN thr players.
Balance between the max-roller and dm is irrelevantt. The dm just adds m9nsters or hit points until encounters are balanced.
Balance between players is where it breaks. Players should be similar levels and similar power levels. Poijt buy helps maintain that. If youve got a munchkin who rolls stats until 1 of them is an 18, and the dm us below average ( half of all dms), then the munchkin player is going to treat the rest of thr party like his sidekicks, and the below average dm will be too clueless to understand what is happening or too scared to confront the munchkin.
The guy who rolls until he gets 18's is never a team player. They want the spotlight, they want to get the max body count, they want all the loot, they want to hog all thr social interactions. Below average dms (HALF of all dms) generally are too clueless or spineless to stand up to the roll until 18 stat munchkin, and the rest of the party suffers for it.
Point buy keeps players balanced within the party, even for below average dms.
The guy who rolls until he gets 18's is never a team player. They want the spotlight, they want to get the max body count, they want all the loot, they want to hog all thr social interactions...Point buy keeps players balanced within the party, even for below average dms.
If the player is never a team player, then his stat generation is not relevant. The non team player will continue to ""...want the spotlight, they want to get the max body count, they want all the loot, ..."
That type of player will hound the DM for better and higher magic items etc. The balance via lower ability rolls will never happen. That non team player will find other ways to "unbalance".
But the approach of "roll for stats and get my character killed until i roll really good stats" is raw and results in stats WAY above point buy.
In a campaign.that starts at level 1, the players rolling for stats will go through a handful of charavters quickly, until they get at least 1 score thats an 18, and then they play to win.
I’ve been playing for more than 40 years and I’ve never seen this happen. Now, my friends and I did have a lot of rolling stats back in 1e, looking at the stat line and deciding it was an unplayable character so re-rolling. (We were 12, it was what was fun for us.) Though that was the old 3d6 in order and see what you get, so unplayable was common. Actually with class and race minimums, an unplayable set of rolls (by RAW at the time) was actually possible.
(Side note: 1 e had rules like, if your dex was below an 6 or 8 or something, you had to play a cleric. But then maybe you rolled a 10 for your wisdom score, you would be unable to cast any cleric spells (casting required a score of 10+spell level in the score to be able to cast) so you’d be unable to be a cleric, for example. When that happened, we’d decide he’s going to go be a farmer and do new rolls.)
But back to the point, this basically, temper tantrum of suicide by goblin so you can re-roll. Never seen it. And like I said, I used to play with 12-year-olds.
This is out of a facebook character optimizing channel I keep tabs on.
The original post:
"Got dealt the worst stat roll I've ever seen and DM won't let us roll again. 14 13 11 9 9 4. What do you even do with that other than cry?"
Various responses:
"Kill it and start over. "
"Just get your character killed as soon as you can."
"Make a deal with your DM talk to them about that you'll try it but if it's not fun you want to reroll it."
"Purposefully get your character killed so you can roll a new one."
"Decide if you want to play with that DM. Someone like that, enjoys controlling his players. Any DM i have played with, would let you reroll."
"If you really want to play with DM and willing to be a little trolly. Charisma 4, talk to EVERYONE. Increase risk of starting a scenario that gets you killed through lack of social ability.
Wisdom 4, make many unwise and dangerous decisions that increase likely hood of fatality.
Intelligence 4, character makes really stupid decisions that quickly lead to their demise.
Better luck on the reroll of a new character."
"4 in charisma and say your character is a huge jerk. Make racial slurs at everyone and get into bar fights. "
"CON 4, and hope to get killed outright in one hit?"
I could go on, but the point has been made beautifully, and finally, by all these power-gamers. The reason people want to use the 4d6 system is to get better stats than the standard array or the 27 point buy. There is no other reason. And if they can't get their way, the idea is to wreck the game for everyone else.
Rolling 4d6 for character creation is a win some lose some chance. The safe way is the point buy. People always get mad when the dice aren’t your friend in the rolling option (because they were hoping for multiple scores above 15, then throw a hissy fit afterwards. You live by the sword and die by it.
Besides being the safe route scores can be validated easily by the DM. I don’t trust nobody and would have to witness the rolling.
I liked in AD&D another option of rolling 3d6 (12x) and choosing your best 6. They should revive that option as well.
I know that this post will most likely be locked soon however I am going to share my two cents on the matter as a DM who runs with the 4d6 stat set up.
Now, I will say that 4d6 is very much a powerful system and can cause players to have widely good stats. However, I have found that players who get some low stats don't often ask to be killed off. They often make it a flaw of their character, for example we have a barbarian in my group who got some awful stats (Like two 7s) so they put them in their mental stats and is playing the fake wizard subclass for barbarian. I've also had players roll really good stats and after a session or two of playing that character decided they want to kill them off as they just don't find them fun to run.
I will say that it is not as bad as the original post made it out to be nor is it perfect, but it definitely does it's job and can make some very fun characters.
Note: I do have a home rule in which they do get 1 extra reroll but that is all they get.
However, I have found that players who get some low stats don't often ask to be killed off.
The problem isn't some low stats. The problem is when it's things like "your best stat is a 13".
So why not let them have a reroll or just bump two of their stats up to 15+?
I think I remember that being a rule in 3e. Something like , if you had no stat above a 13, or if the sum of all your modifiers was 0 or lower, it was considered an unplayable character and you got to re-roll.
So why not let them have a reroll or just bump two of their stats up to 15+?
Because then you aren't actually using 4k3? The general solution to rolling stats is to not roll stats. There are methods of having randomized character creation that's still fair, but they don't look a lot like rolling for stats individually.
However, I have found that players who get some low stats don't often ask to be killed off.
The problem isn't some low stats. The problem is when it's things like "your best stat is a 13".
So why not let them have a reroll or just bump two of their stats up to 15+?
I think I remember that being a rule in 3e. Something like , if you had no stat above a 13, or if the sum of all your modifiers was 0 or lower, it was considered an unplayable character and you got to re-roll.
So why not let them have a reroll or just bump two of their stats up to 15+?
Because then you aren't actually using 4k3? The general solution to rolling stats is to not roll stats. There are methods of having randomized character creation that's still fair, but they don't look a lot like rolling for stats individually.
Or you could roll stats but with guardrails to insure that someone doesn't get stuck with an unplayable characters. There's no need to insist on some sort of silly "purity" of rolls that's completely unnecessary.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The correct way to play is whatever is fun for everyone at the table (yes, this includes the Dungeon Master). Whether or not your stats are generated with point buy or dice isn't important.
I will say that if I start a new game I'm tempted by my own variant:
Attributes are rolled on 3d6, in order (no placing them where you want them to be)
Background does not grant any ability scores (those rolls are what you have)
You get to roll 100 characters (tool will be provided).
An example of doing this, with the 'best' 6 (by a custom rating algorithm that seems... reasonable to me)
Str 5 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 13 Cha 8 Str 13 Dex 15 Con 14 Int 15 Wis 17 Cha 3 Str 14 Dex 13 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 15 Cha 11 Str 14 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 11 Wis 8 Cha 11 Str 9 Dex 10 Con 15 Int 16 Wis 7 Cha 16 Str 14 Dex 16 Con 11 Int 17 Wis 12 Cha 11
I'm not 100% sure which of those I'd pick, but there's certainly something viable there, and they do have more character than you see from point buy or standard array.
I will say that if I start a new game I'm tempted by my own variant:
Attributes are rolled on 3d6, in order (no placing them where you want them to be)
Background does not grant any ability scores (those rolls are what you have)
You get to roll 100 characters (tool will be provided).
An example of doing this, with the 'best' 6 (by a custom rating algorithm that seems... reasonable to me)
Str 5 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 13 Cha 8 Str 13 Dex 15 Con 14 Int 15 Wis 17 Cha 3 Str 14 Dex 13 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 15 Cha 11 Str 14 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 11 Wis 8 Cha 11 Str 9 Dex 10 Con 15 Int 16 Wis 7 Cha 16 Str 14 Dex 16 Con 11 Int 17 Wis 12 Cha 11
I'm not 100% sure which of those I'd pick, but there's certainly something viable there, and they do have more character than you see from point buy or standard array.
The most fun I've ever had rolling up characters was doing this:
The DM has everyone roll up a set of six numbers using 4k3, keeping them in order. If there were fewer than six people in the party, the DM rolled extra sets until we had six
Those stats were then laid out in a 6x6 grid
We then determined a random order and each player picked a column, row or diagonal to use, with each set only being used once, from a grid that looked something like this:
That way, if someone rolled really well, it could benefit multiple people, and if someone rolled poorly it wasn't an issue. It also made it easier to pick a set more tailored to your build or character concept, if it was MAD/SAD or whatever
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue) Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I will say that if I start a new game I'm tempted by my own variant:
Attributes are rolled on 3d6, in order (no placing them where you want them to be)
Background does not grant any ability scores (those rolls are what you have)
You get to roll 100 characters (tool will be provided).
An example of doing this, with the 'best' 6 (by a custom rating algorithm that seems... reasonable to me)
Str 5 Dex 17 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 13 Cha 8 Str 13 Dex 15 Con 14 Int 15 Wis 17 Cha 3 Str 14 Dex 13 Con 14 Int 16 Wis 15 Cha 11 Str 14 Dex 14 Con 18 Int 11 Wis 8 Cha 11 Str 9 Dex 10 Con 15 Int 16 Wis 7 Cha 16 Str 14 Dex 16 Con 11 Int 17 Wis 12 Cha 11
I'm not 100% sure which of those I'd pick, but there's certainly something viable there, and they do have more character than you see from point buy or standard array.
The most fun I've ever had rolling up characters was doing this:
The DM has everyone roll up a set of six numbers using 4k3, keeping them in order. If there were fewer than six people in the party, the DM rolled extra sets until we had six
Those stats were then laid out in a 6x6 grid
We then determined a random order and each player picked a column, row or diagonal to use, with each set only being used once, from a grid that looked something like this:
That way, if someone rolled really well, it could benefit multiple people, and if someone rolled poorly it wasn't an issue. It also made it easier to pick a set more tailored to your build or character concept, if it was MAD/SAD or whatever
There was this system I heard of but never used. I want to say it’s from 13th Age. You roll 6 d6’s and give each one a letter A through F. Then you start with 6 13’s. To the first 13 you add dice A and subtract B. Then add B and subtract C and so on until you add F and subtract A. It always seemed like an interesting idea. But as I said, I’ve never actually tried it.
I've read a bit in this thread. I don't care for the Coville method, or other methods which include "roll stats in order," because I like being able to choose my own character, with created backstory hooks (not answers, hooks) instead of having to improvise one on the spot. That might be fine for the old-school dungeon crawl type games, but if I want to do a dungeon crawl with a minimal, irrelevant backstory, I have my pick of videogames which are better suited for that. The appeal of playing at the tabletop is a unique, interactive story.
Something I don't think anyone else has said is that "roll stats in order" also could create problems in party composition if the stat spread for one of the columns is uniformly poor, or another is overrepresented.
I don't have a problem with point buy or standard array, but I do think rolling can lead to more interesting variations for classes. The argument that rolling is the generation method for min-maxers is a bit silly; point buy and standard array INSIST on min-maxing. I'm also going to agree with the sentiment that if someone is the kind of person who wants to roll stats and then whines and complains if they don't get a perfect, amazing stat line, they would surely whine and complain about a lot of things during the game no matter what stat generation method they use.
The method one of my DM's used for rolling stats was that each player rolled two sets of 4d6dl. If the total of each set was below 72 (sum of standard array), you reroll both sets, but if at least one set was 72 or higher, you have to use one of them. But the method I'm thinking of, if I DM for another game, is to roll up (player count + 1) sets of 4d6dl stats (min total of 72), and the group as a whole chooses which set of stats everyone uses. That solves the issue of a discrepancy between someone who gets a poor set and someone who gets a great set. (I guess if someone really REALLY wants, they could pick a different set.)
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"at the table none of them are a threat if you are half decent GM"
Oh my dog. The problem is NOT that the player who gamed his stats is too powerful for the dm. The dm just adds more monsters until the encounters are balanced. The dm has no restrictions, so obviously the dm can out powergame the powergamer.
The problem with the player who rerolls characters until he gets two 18's is the rest of the party. Think of the "average" dm. Now realize that HALF of all dms are worse than that. When a below averagd dm (half of all dms), run into a "roll until you get 18's" player, what happens is the DM lets that player run with 18s while the rest of the players tried to keep balanced scores (point buy) for balance BETWEEN thr players.
Balance between the max-roller and dm is irrelevantt. The dm just adds m9nsters or hit points until encounters are balanced.
Balance between players is where it breaks. Players should be similar levels and similar power levels. Poijt buy helps maintain that. If youve got a munchkin who rolls stats until 1 of them is an 18, and the dm us below average ( half of all dms), then the munchkin player is going to treat the rest of thr party like his sidekicks, and the below average dm will be too clueless to understand what is happening or too scared to confront the munchkin.
The guy who rolls until he gets 18's is never a team player. They want the spotlight, they want to get the max body count, they want all the loot, they want to hog all thr social interactions. Below average dms (HALF of all dms) generally are too clueless or spineless to stand up to the roll until 18 stat munchkin, and the rest of the party suffers for it.
Point buy keeps players balanced within the party, even for below average dms.
If the player is never a team player, then his stat generation is not relevant. The non team player will continue to ""...want the spotlight, they want to get the max body count, they want all the loot, ..."
That type of player will hound the DM for better and higher magic items etc. The balance via lower ability rolls will never happen. That non team player will find other ways to "unbalance".
I’ve been playing for more than 40 years and I’ve never seen this happen. Now, my friends and I did have a lot of rolling stats back in 1e, looking at the stat line and deciding it was an unplayable character so re-rolling. (We were 12, it was what was fun for us.) Though that was the old 3d6 in order and see what you get, so unplayable was common. Actually with class and race minimums, an unplayable set of rolls (by RAW at the time) was actually possible.
(Side note: 1 e had rules like, if your dex was below an 6 or 8 or something, you had to play a cleric. But then maybe you rolled a 10 for your wisdom score, you would be unable to cast any cleric spells (casting required a score of 10+spell level in the score to be able to cast) so you’d be unable to be a cleric, for example. When that happened, we’d decide he’s going to go be a farmer and do new rolls.)
But back to the point, this basically, temper tantrum of suicide by goblin so you can re-roll. Never seen it. And like I said, I used to play with 12-year-olds.
Rolling 4d6 for character creation is a win some lose some chance. The safe way is the point buy. People always get mad when the dice aren’t your friend in the rolling option (because they were hoping for multiple scores above 15, then throw a hissy fit afterwards. You live by the sword and die by it.
Besides being the safe route scores can be validated easily by the DM. I don’t trust nobody and would have to witness the rolling.
I liked in AD&D another option of rolling 3d6 (12x) and choosing your best 6. They should revive that option as well.
I know that this post will most likely be locked soon however I am going to share my two cents on the matter as a DM who runs with the 4d6 stat set up.
Now, I will say that 4d6 is very much a powerful system and can cause players to have widely good stats. However, I have found that players who get some low stats don't often ask to be killed off. They often make it a flaw of their character, for example we have a barbarian in my group who got some awful stats (Like two 7s) so they put them in their mental stats and is playing the fake wizard subclass for barbarian. I've also had players roll really good stats and after a session or two of playing that character decided they want to kill them off as they just don't find them fun to run.
I will say that it is not as bad as the original post made it out to be nor is it perfect, but it definitely does it's job and can make some very fun characters.
Note: I do have a home rule in which they do get 1 extra reroll but that is all they get.
The problem isn't some low stats. The problem is when it's things like "your best stat is a 13".
So why not let them have a reroll or just bump two of their stats up to 15+?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think I remember that being a rule in 3e. Something like , if you had no stat above a 13, or if the sum of all your modifiers was 0 or lower, it was considered an unplayable character and you got to re-roll.
Because then you aren't actually using 4k3? The general solution to rolling stats is to not roll stats. There are methods of having randomized character creation that's still fair, but they don't look a lot like rolling for stats individually.
Yes. It was right there in the PHB.
Or you could roll stats but with guardrails to insure that someone doesn't get stuck with an unplayable characters. There's no need to insist on some sort of silly "purity" of rolls that's completely unnecessary.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The correct way to play is whatever is fun for everyone at the table (yes, this includes the Dungeon Master). Whether or not your stats are generated with point buy or dice isn't important.
I will say that if I start a new game I'm tempted by my own variant:
An example of doing this, with the 'best' 6 (by a custom rating algorithm that seems... reasonable to me)
I'm not 100% sure which of those I'd pick, but there's certainly something viable there, and they do have more character than you see from point buy or standard array.
The most fun I've ever had rolling up characters was doing this:
13 11 17 12 8 10
10 11 9 12 18 13
7 16 16 13 9 12
14 14 12 9 8 14
12 7 13 16 14 7
9 12 9 12 13 15
That way, if someone rolled really well, it could benefit multiple people, and if someone rolled poorly it wasn't an issue. It also made it easier to pick a set more tailored to your build or character concept, if it was MAD/SAD or whatever
Active characters:
Edoumiaond Willegume "Eddie" Podslee, Vegetanian scholar (College of Spirits bard)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator (Assassin rogue)
Peter "the Pied Piper" Hausler, human con artist/remover of vermin (Circle of the Shepherd druid)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
There was this system I heard of but never used. I want to say it’s from 13th Age. You roll 6 d6’s and give each one a letter A through F. Then you start with 6 13’s. To the first 13 you add dice A and subtract B. Then add B and subtract C and so on until you add F and subtract A.
It always seemed like an interesting idea. But as I said, I’ve never actually tried it.
I've read a bit in this thread. I don't care for the Coville method, or other methods which include "roll stats in order," because I like being able to choose my own character, with created backstory hooks (not answers, hooks) instead of having to improvise one on the spot. That might be fine for the old-school dungeon crawl type games, but if I want to do a dungeon crawl with a minimal, irrelevant backstory, I have my pick of videogames which are better suited for that. The appeal of playing at the tabletop is a unique, interactive story.
Something I don't think anyone else has said is that "roll stats in order" also could create problems in party composition if the stat spread for one of the columns is uniformly poor, or another is overrepresented.
I don't have a problem with point buy or standard array, but I do think rolling can lead to more interesting variations for classes. The argument that rolling is the generation method for min-maxers is a bit silly; point buy and standard array INSIST on min-maxing. I'm also going to agree with the sentiment that if someone is the kind of person who wants to roll stats and then whines and complains if they don't get a perfect, amazing stat line, they would surely whine and complain about a lot of things during the game no matter what stat generation method they use.
The method one of my DM's used for rolling stats was that each player rolled two sets of 4d6dl. If the total of each set was below 72 (sum of standard array), you reroll both sets, but if at least one set was 72 or higher, you have to use one of them. But the method I'm thinking of, if I DM for another game, is to roll up (player count + 1) sets of 4d6dl stats (min total of 72), and the group as a whole chooses which set of stats everyone uses. That solves the issue of a discrepancy between someone who gets a poor set and someone who gets a great set. (I guess if someone really REALLY wants, they could pick a different set.)