I'm on 3 games using 2014 right now, none of which have decided whether we want to switch to 2024. I think it is a better ruleset but change is hard and some people just want to show up, roll some dice, and make some inappropriate jokes at the DMs expense (and that is totally fine)
However I beg of you, please read what they are ACTUALLY SAYING and not what some rage baiting 3rd party is spewing for clout or clicks. 2014 will continue to exist both on the compendium and character sheet. It will not be forced upon you, DDB will not change your characters. The only thing they are updating on the character sheet automatically are the 2 items OP cited and the spells that appear in both 2014 and 2024. (My guess is that the changes are so small they decided not to spend resources forking those databases like the monsters and classes are)
If any of my players' characters use one of those spells, and if those spells have changed, and if the change is bad I'll gladly take a couple of minutes of my prep to homebrew the old version for them. Otherwise, I think they wouldn't even notice
you will not be able to use 2014 spells and item in character sheet. and its impossible to homebrew everything. read post above. + to use someone elses homebrew you need to pay for the subscription.
small feedback - i found out about this changes on facebook in a random dnd group post. if it wasnt for it i would never knew about them - SEND EMAILS TO PEOPLE ABOUT SUCH BIG CHANGES! DONT TRY TO HIDE THEM! 90+% Of people dont read forums.
I just don't understand the lack of transparency on WHY they are doing this. There's clearly a specific reason why only spells and magic items are affected but they haven't explained it.
Why do people keep saying "90% of spells are the same" or "It's only a few spells that have changed" or "Just a few dozen."
This does not appear to be true.
According to a reputable source, there are 106 spells that have been mechanically changed in some way. (From what I can see here)
On top of that, in order to effectively restore your access to these original versions of spells and their functionality in the character sheet, you would not only need to homebrew these spells manually, you would also need to homebrew the following features: (As mentioned elsewhere in this thread by WolfmanRIP)
Every subclass that grants spells needs to be homebrewed
Every item that grants spells needs to be homebrewed
Every warlock invocation that grants spells - these cannot be homebrewed and will not be usable with 2014 rules
Every class that grants extra spells (mainly through the Tasha's expanded spell lists) - as far as I know these also cannot be homebrewed so will be unusable.
Every monster that casts spells will need to be homebrewed
(Adding one of my own here) Every mundane and magical item that is being changed with the new ruleset (the numbers of which are as of yet unknown)
Which is, of course, to speak nothing about the actual monetary value that every single person who has purchased digital rulebooks from D&D Beyond is losing out on.
It's been argued ad nauseam but we say it louder for the people in the back.
The vast majority of those upset feel they have been wronged because when they purchased the digital copies of these books, they bought into an agreement, understanding, promise, whatever you wish to call it, that they would be able to utilize this content, AS STATED IN THE PRODUCT DETAILS TO THIS VERY DAY, within D&D Beyond's "Digital Toolset".
When this functionality is removed from the site, those of us who specifically purchased access to use this content in the Digital Toolset will effectively have the primary purpose of our purchases ripped away from us. This is what we find unacceptable. This is what we find objectionable.
We recognize that there are people who are happy to receive these updates for free. We understand that they see this as 'getting something instead of nothing'.
But WE DO NOT SEE IT THE SAME WAY. It is clear, if you take just a brief glance around the various D&D communities around the internet that a significant majority of discourse centers around the fact that we FIND LITTLE TO NO VALUE IN THE 2024 RULESET that we will be receiving because we DID NOT ASK FOR IT AND DO NOT WANT TO USE IT.
The decisions by whatever powers that be to take a Profit focused approach (Because it is very clear that this is a push to 'encourage' long-standing members of the D&D Beyond community to spend even more money buying into updated systems they do not want or need by cutting off their access to the Digital Toolset they have already paid to use), is predatory, insulting, and a betrayal of their userbase.
What would we like to be done about it?
I would hope the answer to that question would be obvious.
Must-Have: - Creating a duplicate database for the 2014 content that, upon character/campaign creation, can be selected, via a toggle, dropdown menu, etc, as the primary ruleset for said character/campaign which would allow new and existing 5e characters and campaigns to proceed unchanged. Would be Nice: - Develop a system to migrate existing 2014 characters/campaigns to the updated 2024 ruleset for those who wish to opt-in to the new rules in the future. Pipe-Dream: - Assurances that support for 2014 content within the Digital Toolset will be protected for as long as a significant portion (Can be defined later) of the userbase of D&D Beyond still utilizes the game-system.
Please Note:I, by no means, speak for everyone who is upset by these changes, but I have seen a significant amount of people making these statements all across the internet.
If I have missed something, or misrepresented something, it is not due to intentional malice, and is very likely due to my own incompetency.
I'm not really on social media, I found out from one of my players mentioning it, I have not really felt the need to join in on the forums before despite being here since the start and owning all official content.
But this AVOIDABLE problem will cause so many issues going forward that I have felt compelled to get involved and share my apprehension for this going forward. If will effectively ruin what I use the site for as I am in the middle of 2014 campaigns with no current intention to make the swap.
And it comes at a time where I have no good faith left over for WOTC.
Quite an eye-opening view on how WotC is purported to view it's customers.
"
As for losing players, I can guarantee Beyond will gain more players than the lose. It is all but certain the hype surrounding a rules update will outweigh the people who are unwilling to accept errata. As anyone with a modicum of common sense can see, this decision was made to help new players - spell lists are already oppressively long, drastically increasing the length with spells that, for the most part, are functional equivalents only makes that harder on new players.
And, here is the reality most of the people rage quitting want to ignore.. and that Wizards almost certainly has thought about and will never vocalize - those players? The game is probably better off without them. There is an element of entitled laziness (if they spent half the time homebrewing as they spent whining, their problem would be solvedp by now), many of them have used personal attacks against anyone who disagrees, a number of them are the same people who have been throwing a fit since Wizards announced this would be the least bigoted version of D&D in history, etc. D&D is a community based game - Wizards probably is not all too broken up over toxic people ragequitting.
Plus, they are financially useless to Wizards. New players means new purchases - that’s the group whose user experience Wizards should care about. People who are so adamantly against the rules update that they’re unwilling to spend a couple minutes hitting the “copy spell” button few times, and are willing to ragequit over such a petty issue? Probably not going to purchase anything anytime soon - and, even if Wizards did appease them, anyone who throws a fit over something so small will probably throw another fit and threaten to ragequit sometime in the future. Not exactly the kind of customer you want to deal with."
I just don't understand the lack of transparency on WHY they are doing this. There's clearly a specific reason why only spells and magic items are affected but they haven't explained it.
Fully done in full concience to push thier 2024 down everyones throat, claiming backwards compability (where is none) hoping they can sell a rushed unfinished product that has even more problems than the prior version.
I just don't understand the lack of transparency on WHY they are doing this. There's clearly a specific reason why only spells and magic items are affected but they haven't explained it.
Fully done in full concience to push thier 2024 down everyones throat, claiming backwards compability (where is none) hoping they can sell a rushed unfinished product that has even more problems than the prior version.
Quite an eye-opening view on how WotC is purported to view it's customers.
"
As for losing players, I can guarantee Beyond will gain more players than the lose. It is all but certain the hype surrounding a rules update will outweigh the people who are unwilling to accept errata. As anyone with a modicum of common sense can see, this decision was made to help new players - spell lists are already oppressively long, drastically increasing the length with spells that, for the most part, are functional equivalents only makes that harder on new players.
And, here is the reality most of the people rage quitting want to ignore.. and that Wizards almost certainly has thought about and will never vocalize - those players? The game is probably better off without them. There is an element of entitled laziness (if they spent half the time homebrewing as they spent whining, their problem would be solvedp by now), many of them have used personal attacks against anyone who disagrees, a number of them are the same people who have been throwing a fit since Wizards announced this would be the least bigoted version of D&D in history, etc. D&D is a community based game - Wizards probably is not all too broken up over toxic people ragequitting.
Plus, they are financially useless to Wizards. New players means new purchases - that’s the group whose user experience Wizards should care about. People who are so adamantly against the rules update that they’re unwilling to spend a couple minutes hitting the “copy spell” button few times, and are willing to ragequit over such a petty issue? Probably not going to purchase anything anytime soon - and, even if Wizards did appease them, anyone who throws a fit over something so small will probably throw another fit and threaten to ragequit sometime in the future. Not exactly the kind of customer you want to deal with."
They make most of their money from selling adventures and dndbeyond subscriptions. Both of which can work with both editions of the game. So no they can't afford to alienate the majority of their playerbase, it's unacceptable.
It is a new version whether you consider it qualifies or not. Many are upset because it breaks their years long campaigns because it trashes their characters unnecessarily. As a software developer for well over 30 years, I know it is fairly easy to put the calls to the new or old style in an if then else statement. They are just steamrolling their customers because they think they can.
Gotta be honest, this change doesn't bother me. Every single video game or sub/web based service I use get's updated all the time. I (we) asked for these changes. Complained at the lack of new rules and updates to spells etc...
I can't help but think about how much overlap there probably is between the people who're most mad about this who also constantly bemoan the fact that people don't know how to use character sheets anymore. Time to pull out your pencils folks.
And people aren't thinking about things like hyperlinks etc... I imagine stuff like that is much more complicated then people assume to deal with. Like if you look at subclass given spells which list of spells should they link to? That kind of thing seems complicated to me. Much more then just a toggle.
having the spells and magic items available in the compendiums isn't a bad thing, but I own the books physically anyway, so who cares about that? the obvious - and I mean O B V I O U S - issue is that that they're no longer available in character sheet creation, which surely you all know is the main reason people use DnDB anyway.
I do hope, Sarah, that you haven't been getting harassed over this, because obviously you're just the messenger here. I similarly hope you convey to your superiors that this is an issue. take care.
Well, I was about to upgrade my membership and purchase the 2024 digital bundle, but now that's on hold. If you are one of those people who want to excuse their money grubbing decisions and dismiss the complaints of some of their current customers, then that is your right, but I am glad you are not at our game table.
I just don't understand the lack of transparency on WHY they are doing this. There's clearly a specific reason why only spells and magic items are affected but they haven't explained it.
I'm sure there are all number of reasons why we weren't warned sooner and aren't being told details. Prior to this weekend, it was probably corporate greed and disconnect from the player needs, devs doing their best with what they've been given, and "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission". Right now, the biggest reason is probably that it's the weekend, and anyone who has any say in the situation or even is allowed to speak about the circumstances isn't in the office. I'm not really expecting another official announcement until maybe Tuesday, after hopefully a number of terse meetings have happened.
That said, keep in mind that all tooltips are also changing to 2024 rules/mechanics/etc. (See: the last paragraph under "What Isn't Changing" in the changelog.) Spells and items are the bulk of tooltips. I'm guessing they decided it's faster and cheaper to just change the mechanics those link to rather than sort through which of those links are on 2014-specific content and which aren't, then point the non-2014 items to a new 2024 version. So, instead, they're asking all of us to do that on a character-by-character basis. (Ugh, it's not just creating the homebrew; it's getting it added into every single character that needs it ...) Which we technically aren't able to do, since we can't homebrew some of those things on our end. I'm so tired, y'all.
This change doesn't bother me in any way shape or form. Every single video game or sub/web based service I use get's updated all the time. I (we) asked for these changes. Complained at the lack of new rules and updates to spells etc...
I can't help but think about how much overlap there probably is between the people who're most mad about this who also constantly bemoan the fact that people don't know how to use character sheets anymore. Time to pull out your pencils folks.
And people aren't thinking about things like hyperlinks etc... I imagine stuff like that is much more complicated then people assume to deal with. Like if you look at subclass given spells which list of spells should they link to? That kind of thing seems complicated to me. Much more then just a toggle.
Yes keep imagining, this is not a video game, and this effects games that have been going on for years in some cases. this is not a genre of gaming where forcing changes mid game is or has been done until this instance. It is a shameful abuse of the players that do not want to change at this time. IT has a very simple though maybe not easy solution, the toggle and legacy tags. Since WotC chose the ruin everyone's game path and waited until there is no time to implement a reasonable solution this storm is theirs to deal with, choices have consequences, per my post above it appears those in the know are unashamed of letting us how WotC views it's customer base that just wants to play the game they are in and then decide which ruleset to use next. They seem to want livestock not customers.
I just don't understand the lack of transparency on WHY they are doing this. There's clearly a specific reason why only spells and magic items are affected but they haven't explained it.
Fully done in full concience to push thier 2024 down everyones throat, claiming backwards compability (where is none) hoping they can sell a rushed unfinished product that has even more problems than the prior version.
That would make sense if they did it with everything. But just spells and items? I don't buy that.
I just don't understand the lack of transparency on WHY they are doing this. There's clearly a specific reason why only spells and magic items are affected but they haven't explained it.
Fully done in full concience to push thier 2024 down everyones throat, claiming backwards compability (where is none) hoping they can sell a rushed unfinished product that has even more problems than the prior version.
That would make sense if they did it with everything. But just spells and items? I don't buy that.
you dont have to, if you want to believe that they are innocent and all this is just a huge misunderstanding and they have the best of players at heart, be my guests.
In that case we can all go to sleep now knowing we are in the very best of hands after all and only the news and changelog is to blame, not money or predatory business practices that are common place in subscription based services :)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
you will not be able to use 2014 spells and item in character sheet. and its impossible to homebrew everything. read post above. + to use someone elses homebrew you need to pay for the subscription.
small feedback - i found out about this changes on facebook in a random dnd group post. if it wasnt for it i would never knew about them - SEND EMAILS TO PEOPLE ABOUT SUCH BIG CHANGES! DONT TRY TO HIDE THEM! 90+% Of people dont read forums.
I just don't understand the lack of transparency on WHY they are doing this. There's clearly a specific reason why only spells and magic items are affected but they haven't explained it.
Amen!
I'm not really on social media, I found out from one of my players mentioning it, I have not really felt the need to join in on the forums before despite being here since the start and owning all official content.
But this AVOIDABLE problem will cause so many issues going forward that I have felt compelled to get involved and share my apprehension for this going forward. If will effectively ruin what I use the site for as I am in the middle of 2014 campaigns with no current intention to make the swap.
And it comes at a time where I have no good faith left over for WOTC.
Quite an eye-opening view on how WotC is purported to view it's customers.
"
As for losing players, I can guarantee Beyond will gain more players than the lose. It is all but certain the hype surrounding a rules update will outweigh the people who are unwilling to accept errata. As anyone with a modicum of common sense can see, this decision was made to help new players - spell lists are already oppressively long, drastically increasing the length with spells that, for the most part, are functional equivalents only makes that harder on new players.
And, here is the reality most of the people rage quitting want to ignore.. and that Wizards almost certainly has thought about and will never vocalize - those players? The game is probably better off without them. There is an element of entitled laziness (if they spent half the time homebrewing as they spent whining, their problem would be solvedp by now), many of them have used personal attacks against anyone who disagrees, a number of them are the same people who have been throwing a fit since Wizards announced this would be the least bigoted version of D&D in history, etc. D&D is a community based game - Wizards probably is not all too broken up over toxic people ragequitting.
Plus, they are financially useless to Wizards. New players means new purchases - that’s the group whose user experience Wizards should care about. People who are so adamantly against the rules update that they’re unwilling to spend a couple minutes hitting the “copy spell” button few times, and are willing to ragequit over such a petty issue? Probably not going to purchase anything anytime soon - and, even if Wizards did appease them, anyone who throws a fit over something so small will probably throw another fit and threaten to ragequit sometime in the future. Not exactly the kind of customer you want to deal with."
Fully done in full concience to push thier 2024 down everyones throat, claiming backwards compability (where is none) hoping they can sell a rushed unfinished product that has even more problems than the prior version.
agreed!
They make most of their money from selling adventures and dndbeyond subscriptions. Both of which can work with both editions of the game. So no they can't afford to alienate the majority of their playerbase, it's unacceptable.
I will not be spending money with a business that thinks like this about is customers.
It is a new version whether you consider it qualifies or not. Many are upset because it breaks their years long campaigns because it trashes their characters unnecessarily. As a software developer for well over 30 years, I know it is fairly easy to put the calls to the new or old style in an if then else statement. They are just steamrolling their customers because they think they can.
Get off my lawn or roll for initiative!
Gotta be honest, this change doesn't bother me. Every single video game or sub/web based service I use get's updated all the time. I (we) asked for these changes. Complained at the lack of new rules and updates to spells etc...
I can't help but think about how much overlap there probably is between the people who're most mad about this who also constantly bemoan the fact that people don't know how to use character sheets anymore. Time to pull out your pencils folks.
And people aren't thinking about things like hyperlinks etc... I imagine stuff like that is much more complicated then people assume to deal with. Like if you look at subclass given spells which list of spells should they link to? That kind of thing seems complicated to me. Much more then just a toggle.
having the spells and magic items available in the compendiums isn't a bad thing, but I own the books physically anyway, so who cares about that? the obvious - and I mean O B V I O U S - issue is that that they're no longer available in character sheet creation, which surely you all know is the main reason people use DnDB anyway.
I do hope, Sarah, that you haven't been getting harassed over this, because obviously you're just the messenger here. I similarly hope you convey to your superiors that this is an issue. take care.
Dum spiro, spero.
It is only better if you want the change. If you want dndB to keep their grubby little mitts off your character and game, it is much worse.
Get off my lawn or roll for initiative!
Well, I was about to upgrade my membership and purchase the 2024 digital bundle, but now that's on hold. If you are one of those people who want to excuse their money grubbing decisions and dismiss the complaints of some of their current customers, then that is your right, but I am glad you are not at our game table.
Get off my lawn or roll for initiative!
I'm sure there are all number of reasons why we weren't warned sooner and aren't being told details. Prior to this weekend, it was probably corporate greed and disconnect from the player needs, devs doing their best with what they've been given, and "it's easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission". Right now, the biggest reason is probably that it's the weekend, and anyone who has any say in the situation or even is allowed to speak about the circumstances isn't in the office. I'm not really expecting another official announcement until maybe Tuesday, after hopefully a number of terse meetings have happened.
That said, keep in mind that all tooltips are also changing to 2024 rules/mechanics/etc. (See: the last paragraph under "What Isn't Changing" in the changelog.) Spells and items are the bulk of tooltips. I'm guessing they decided it's faster and cheaper to just change the mechanics those link to rather than sort through which of those links are on 2014-specific content and which aren't, then point the non-2014 items to a new 2024 version. So, instead, they're asking all of us to do that on a character-by-character basis. (Ugh, it's not just creating the homebrew; it's getting it added into every single character that needs it ...) Which we technically aren't able to do, since we can't homebrew some of those things on our end. I'm so tired, y'all.
Yes keep imagining, this is not a video game, and this effects games that have been going on for years in some cases. this is not a genre of gaming where forcing changes mid game is or has been done until this instance. It is a shameful abuse of the players that do not want to change at this time. IT has a very simple though maybe not easy solution, the toggle and legacy tags. Since WotC chose the ruin everyone's game path and waited until there is no time to implement a reasonable solution this storm is theirs to deal with, choices have consequences, per my post above it appears those in the know are unashamed of letting us how WotC views it's customer base that just wants to play the game they are in and then decide which ruleset to use next. They seem to want livestock not customers.
That would make sense if they did it with everything. But just spells and items? I don't buy that.
If you have to go back to pencil and paper, then we don't need DnDBeyond anymore.
Get off my lawn or roll for initiative!
you dont have to, if you want to believe that they are innocent and all this is just a huge misunderstanding and they have the best of players at heart, be my guests.
In that case we can all go to sleep now knowing we are in the very best of hands after all and only the news and changelog is to blame, not money or predatory business practices that are common place in subscription based services :)