Quote from tinglingworld >>

Okay, so does this change as they're currently planning it mean that existing character sheets will change as well? 

Not just in terms of the updated content of the available quick reference spells and magic items but in terms of ost basic character sheet? 

Since race and backgrounds are gonna work differently, surely the plan is to have the whole character builder reflect the 2024 way of character creation. Will that be in this update as well?

If they go through with this in a few weeks, do I have to worry about it breaking entire existing sheets (race, background, feats etc.) in addition to the hassle of looking up each spell and magic item etc. individually? 

 

The terminology used in the character builder will be based on 2024. The workflow will be based on 2024, but you'll still be able to use 2014 classes, subclasses, species, backgrounds, etc in the updated version of the builder.

Quote from Finnyous >>

Quote from FrostedPhoenix >>

I can't help but think about how much overlap there probably is between the people who're most mad about this who also constantly bemoan the fact that people don't know how to use character sheets anymore. Time to pull out your pencils folks.

What in the strawman is this?

And people aren't thinking about things like hyperlinks etc... I imagine stuff like that is much more complicated then people assume to deal with. Like if you look at subclass given spells which list of spells should they link to? That kind of thing seems complicated to me. Much more then just a toggle.

Except that if they flagged characters running off of the 2014 ruleset properly, they could simply reference all hyperlinks to the 2014 rulebooks people already purchased, and they already host on the site, and they will not be removing from their site. 

Here's the reality of the situation:

They have a database full of 2014 content. 

Rather than duplicate that database, update it with the 2024 ruleset, and develop a simple method to select which ruleset a character falls under in the character creation menu, they have chosen to obliterate the existing database in an effort to force people into purchasing as-of-yet unreleased content.

---

As an aside, frankly, it does not matter if it is difficult to do. What matters is that it is the right thing to do.


Let me speak to your video game references for a moment. 

When No Man's Sky launched, it was a complete shit show. A technical nightmare full of lies and false promises. It is now widely regarded as one of the best space exploration games currently on the market because it's creators Did the hard, right thing to overhaul the entire game again and again and again, FOR FREE, until it not only rose to it's original promised state, but surpassed it. 

When Final Fantasy 14 had it's abysmal launch, the company literally blew up the game world and re-created it into something that has now progressed to be one of the best MMO experiences of all time. It was by no means easy for them but it  was the right thing to do. 

There are other examples of this in the gaming space as well, what's important to remember is that doing the right thing may not be easy, but if a company cares about it's customers, it will certainly make an effort. 

 

 

1st of all. That isn't what "strawman" means, it's just an observation that maybe the people who complain all the time about how not enough people know how to use character sheets should whip one out themselves and just realize that this huge "problem" is super easily solved with a pencil.

Here's the reality of the situation. None of you back seat coders have any true idea of what it would take to do what you're asking for. I don't either, but neither do any of you. 

When Final Fantasy 14 had it's abysmal launch, the company literally blew up the game world and re-created it into something that has now progressed to be one of the best MMO experiences of all time. It was by no means easy for them but it  was the right thing to do. 

 

Ahh! the perfect example of a company listening to it's subscribers and changing the rules of their game in a permanent way to something that is better balanced makes more sense and.... Oh wait. That's what WOTC is trying to do right now. 

But it's not just video games. I use Quickbooks in my office and it updates all the time. It can be harder to learn but there's usually very good reasons for the changes that I discover as I start to get used to the updates. And in this instance you can EASILY go back and use whatever content you want. Still exists, still very usable.  

My complaint is more about completely hyperbolic, sky is falling mentality of the "fans" of this game and how that mentality is poisoning the water so to speak. If it were easy to toggle spells and adjust their hyperlinks etc.. I'm not like super apposed to it or anything but it just seems like the people who go on and on about this stuff every "scandal" that comes up are people who constantly talk about how they're decided to convert their games and and yet here they are again. 

I like the 2024 updates, I'm running games in 2014 rules and am going to update them to 2024 the moment I can. If people don't like that they can print out character sheets or actually follow through on their threats of leaving. 

 Well, Pathbuilder did just that.  They manage both original 2e and remastered with a click of a button, so it isn't a question of how hard, it's a question on whether they are willing to risk an arbitrary deployment date to satisfy a large chunk of their user base.  I've spent money on DnDBeyond, but I will not spend anymore money until I know they are going to honor my original investment.  Why through good money after bad?  And telling people they can print out character sheets and start using pencils is really a call for them to boycott DnDBeyond and WOTC, which I'm not apposed to if they basically destroy the purchases uses have made in the past.  Remember, they promised backwards compatibility with this rollout.  Did they not learn anything for the OGL fiasco?

Quote from TheBatch >>

Quote from Goldeye >>

Quote from TheBatch >>

I just don't understand the lack of transparency on WHY they are doing this. There's clearly a specific reason why only spells and magic items are affected but they haven't explained it.

 

Fully done in full concience to push thier 2024 down everyones throat, claiming backwards compability (where is none) hoping they can sell a rushed unfinished product that has even more problems than the prior version.

That would make sense if they did it with everything. But just spells and items? I don't buy that.

 My feeling is that this is step one in the slow creep to not having any of the 2014 content in the character builder, and once all of the books are released that classes/subclasses are going to have the new mechanics applied without (or with very little) warning to the customer base.

Hopefully I’m wrong about that, but given how this is going I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility.

Quote from Caito >>

Quote from Atieno >>

Quote from Goldeye >>

Quote from TheBatch >>

I just don't understand the lack of transparency on WHY they are doing this. There's clearly a specific reason why only spells and magic items are affected but they haven't explained it.

 

Fully done in full concience to push thier 2024 down everyones throat, claiming backwards compability (where is none) hoping they can sell a rushed unfinished product that has even more problems than the prior version.

 I genuinely just don’t think that’s true.

like honestly I get the desire to assume the worst… I’m not pro WotC at all, but I really don’t think that’s it.

i think much more likely is that the backend of the database was never written with the concept of being updated like this and so the spells and magic items have been saved under actual names, rather than id’s and so updates like this become a lot more problematic. That’s not me defending them because a fix is not impossible, it’s just a lot more labour intensive and instead I think they’ve chosen the option that’s easiest for THEM and decides we should all have to front the work load for them in fixing a problem they created.

like let’s look at healing word as just an example… 2014 healing word heals for less than 2024 healing word. The way the database works is that not only does the character sheet point to 2014 healing word currently, all instances that use healing word in the game point to the 2014 version, so that would include subclasses, feat, monsters who use the spell, magical items that use the spell and so on and so forth.

to maintain a functional 2014 database at this junction they would need a healing word (2014) version, which would probably be named something like “Healing Word (Legacy)”and a healing word (2024) version, that would just be called healing word (because most up to date version always takes precedence). They would then need to duplicate all entries on the database and have one version that points to the 2024 version of the spell and one that points to the 2014 version of the spell. So that would kind that say you had a cleric enemy - you would need to have a 2024 and 2014 version of both pages because the spell links inside creature page would be pointing to different version of the spell.

now replicate that for literally everything in the game.

so I know people keep saying “just add a toggle” but it really isn’t as simple as that because of how the database currently works.

...

 

I don't think it would be as difficult as you say to make this work. Let's break it down.

Let's assume everything is coded to refer to spells using names and not IDs.

Their database already contains the 2014 version of Healing Word under the name "Healing Word". Now Healing Word has changed in 2024 so one way or another the database needs to be touched to either add a new entry or edit the existing entry's description. From a database update perspective both are equally simple and easy.

So let's take the route less disruptive to the data, and add a new entry for "Healing Word (2024)". Note I am choosing to name the new spells "2024" for least disruption, but renaming the old spells to 2014/Legacy isn't too bad either just slightly more work to go through and update existing references, so that is also a possibility and can also be done as a second stage update as well.

So far nothing is impacted, everything existing is using the Healing Word name and refers to the 2014 version.

Ok so now the 2024 version needs to be referenced in a few places.

1. The new PHB, this is easy as it's also a new entry in their data store so nothing old is impacted.

2. Spell Search page: Since we have two entries in the database they will both appear in the spell search, with the new one clearly labeled 2024. If desired a user can filter by sourcebook already to only see 2014 or 2024 version of the spell as desired.

3. 2024 Classes, Subclasses, Feats, Species, Backgrounds: These are all new entries and therefore need to be created from scratch and can therefore be made to reference "Healing Word (2024)", again nothing old is impacted. Keep in mind they have already implemented toggles for the 2014 vs 2024 character options mentioned.

4. 2024 monsters: These are all new entries and therefore need to be created from scratch and can therefore be made to reference "Healing Word (2024)", again nothing old is impacted. Again they have already implemented toggles for 2014 vs 2024 monsters.

5. Character Sheet spells management: Since we have two entries in the database they will both appear in the spell search. As there are currently no filters in that tab, If they want to improve the user experience they can add a toggle that will filter out the 2014 or 2024 versions of Healing Word.

That's is it, this is the most basic thing they could have done which causes least disruption and makes both sets of spells available to 2014 and 2024 characters respectively. And this may seem hacky, but it should have been at least a first step in the update process, and as development continues and they get past the PHB 2024 release deadline, they could then focus on making this more robust and redesigning the site so it can support multiple versions seamlessly.

And then the entire DDB rules engine has to be updated to use all those new names appropriately. It's, presumably, not an easy lift.

but it is objectively true to say that DnD is NOT an MMO

What is DND beyond though? This is about "dnd" if it were about DND then you all would admit that there is no problem here and you can just use a pencil? 

All subscription based websites go through updates.

You are paying to license this stuff not even own it. You can be mad when Netflix loses a show you were paying for but you have no say in if they remove it. 

now if you’re interested in that or not… is very much up to you, but if you’re not interested - then why are you here commenting? 

I would love to ask the same thing of all the people who continue to threaten to leave this game and never play again who show up every 6 months to complain about their rights being "violated" There's only so many "and this is the last straws" I can take.

How is it that tiny Pathbuilder was able to do so with the 2e and 2e revised characters?  It was just a click of the button.  They have both rulesets available and unless DDB's engine is absolute spit and duck tape, it should not be a difficult lift, just a time consuming lift.  Databases should be built off of numeric keys, not text keys.  Duplicate text should not be a problem.  Afterall, there a many Main Streets in the USA but google maps doesn't blow up.

Quote from gksmithlcw >>

Quote from Caito >>

Quote from Atieno >>

Quote from Goldeye >>

Quote from TheBatch >>

I just don't understand the lack of transparency on WHY they are doing this. There's clearly a specific reason why only spells and magic items are affected but they haven't explained it.

 

Fully done in full concience to push thier 2024 down everyones throat, claiming backwards compability (where is none) hoping they can sell a rushed unfinished product that has even more problems than the prior version.

 I genuinely just don’t think that’s true.

like honestly I get the desire to assume the worst… I’m not pro WotC at all, but I really don’t think that’s it.

i think much more likely is that the backend of the database was never written with the concept of being updated like this and so the spells and magic items have been saved under actual names, rather than id’s and so updates like this become a lot more problematic. That’s not me defending them because a fix is not impossible, it’s just a lot more labour intensive and instead I think they’ve chosen the option that’s easiest for THEM and decides we should all have to front the work load for them in fixing a problem they created.

like let’s look at healing word as just an example… 2014 healing word heals for less than 2024 healing word. The way the database works is that not only does the character sheet point to 2014 healing word currently, all instances that use healing word in the game point to the 2014 version, so that would include subclasses, feat, monsters who use the spell, magical items that use the spell and so on and so forth.

to maintain a functional 2014 database at this junction they would need a healing word (2014) version, which would probably be named something like “Healing Word (Legacy)”and a healing word (2024) version, that would just be called healing word (because most up to date version always takes precedence). They would then need to duplicate all entries on the database and have one version that points to the 2024 version of the spell and one that points to the 2014 version of the spell. So that would kind that say you had a cleric enemy - you would need to have a 2024 and 2014 version of both pages because the spell links inside creature page would be pointing to different version of the spell.

now replicate that for literally everything in the game.

so I know people keep saying “just add a toggle” but it really isn’t as simple as that because of how the database currently works.

...

 

I don't think it would be as difficult as you say to make this work. Let's break it down.

Let's assume everything is coded to refer to spells using names and not IDs.

Their database already contains the 2014 version of Healing Word under the name "Healing Word". Now Healing Word has changed in 2024 so one way or another the database needs to be touched to either add a new entry or edit the existing entry's description. From a database update perspective both are equally simple and easy.

So let's take the route less disruptive to the data, and add a new entry for "Healing Word (2024)". Note I am choosing to name the new spells "2024" for least disruption, but renaming the old spells to 2014/Legacy isn't too bad either just slightly more work to go through and update existing references, so that is also a possibility and can also be done as a second stage update as well.

So far nothing is impacted, everything existing is using the Healing Word name and refers to the 2014 version.

Ok so now the 2024 version needs to be referenced in a few places.

1. The new PHB, this is easy as it's also a new entry in their data store so nothing old is impacted.

2. Spell Search page: Since we have two entries in the database they will both appear in the spell search, with the new one clearly labeled 2024. If desired a user can filter by sourcebook already to only see 2014 or 2024 version of the spell as desired.

3. 2024 Classes, Subclasses, Feats, Species, Backgrounds: These are all new entries and therefore need to be created from scratch and can therefore be made to reference "Healing Word (2024)", again nothing old is impacted. Keep in mind they have already implemented toggles for the 2014 vs 2024 character options mentioned.

4. 2024 monsters: These are all new entries and therefore need to be created from scratch and can therefore be made to reference "Healing Word (2024)", again nothing old is impacted. Again they have already implemented toggles for 2014 vs 2024 monsters.

5. Character Sheet spells management: Since we have two entries in the database they will both appear in the spell search. As there are currently no filters in that tab, If they want to improve the user experience they can add a toggle that will filter out the 2014 or 2024 versions of Healing Word.

That's is it, this is the most basic thing they could have done which causes least disruption and makes both sets of spells available to 2014 and 2024 characters respectively. And this may seem hacky, but it should have been at least a first step in the update process, and as development continues and they get past the PHB 2024 release deadline, they could then focus on making this more robust and redesigning the site so it can support multiple versions seamlessly.

 

And then the entire DDB rules engine has to be updated to use all those new names appropriately. It's, presumably, not an easy lift.

 Can you elaborate on what you mean by the DDB rules engine?

Quote from GandalfDaGrey >>

How is it that tiny Pathbuilder was able to do so with the 2e and 2e revised characters?  It was just a click of the button.  They have both rulesets available and unless DDB's engine is absolute spit and duck tape, it should not be a difficult lift, just a time consuming lift.  Databases should be built off of numeric keys, not text keys.  Duplicate text should not be a problem.  Afterall, there a many Main Streets in the USA but google maps doesn't blow up.

 Not as greedy, that's how.

It's not a matter of ability, but a matter of forcing you into buying the 2024 version of books you already bought, or your spells will be all screwed up between compendium and character builder.

Quote from GandalfDaGrey >>

How is it that tiny Pathbuilder was able to do so with the 2e and 2e revised characters?  It was just a click of the button.  They have both rulesets available and unless DDB's engine is absolute spit and duck tape, it should not be a difficult lift, just a time consuming lift.  Databases should be built off of numeric keys, not text keys.  Duplicate text should not be a problem.  Afterall, there a many Main Streets in the USA but google maps doesn't blow up.

If you have a system that was architected for it and/or the resources to re-architect the system, nearly anything is possible, given enough time. However, based on the implementation choices being made I'm assuming DDB does not currently have either of those things.

Assumptions of their architecture is not really helpful.  Very few systems are built for radical change, but this is not radical change, it is simply repointing to new or old data.

I don't think there is much real difference between a homebrew "Acid Splash (Legacy)" and them reworking their database to do that. You can have that now - https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2595165-alter-self-legacy as one example I did as proof of concept

That works apart from the matter of links where you can't edit them like in adventure modules etc. If you want the old spell on your character sheet there it is for you to pick. Realistically no company was ever going to default to the old stuff for those when they have new stuff. Its going to default to the new rules. It just creates future problems for them and future migration issues to worry about.

With the energy that has gone into these discussions we could have had a full set of homebrew spells by now. I was just playing with it to prove its workable. I STILL think the Beyond team dropped the ball by not doing that for us but there you have it. They have a bunch of vacancies open - my guess is they are understaffed and overstretched but still had to hit the deadlines for the books dropping.

Quote from Caito >>

Quote from gksmithlcw >>

Quote from Caito >>

Quote from Atieno >>

Quote from Goldeye >>

Quote from TheBatch >>

I just don't understand the lack of transparency on WHY they are doing this. There's clearly a specific reason why only spells and magic items are affected but they haven't explained it.

 

Fully done in full concience to push thier 2024 down everyones throat, claiming backwards compability (where is none) hoping they can sell a rushed unfinished product that has even more problems than the prior version.

 I genuinely just don’t think that’s true.

like honestly I get the desire to assume the worst… I’m not pro WotC at all, but I really don’t think that’s it.

i think much more likely is that the backend of the database was never written with the concept of being updated like this and so the spells and magic items have been saved under actual names, rather than id’s and so updates like this become a lot more problematic. That’s not me defending them because a fix is not impossible, it’s just a lot more labour intensive and instead I think they’ve chosen the option that’s easiest for THEM and decides we should all have to front the work load for them in fixing a problem they created.

like let’s look at healing word as just an example… 2014 healing word heals for less than 2024 healing word. The way the database works is that not only does the character sheet point to 2014 healing word currently, all instances that use healing word in the game point to the 2014 version, so that would include subclasses, feat, monsters who use the spell, magical items that use the spell and so on and so forth.

to maintain a functional 2014 database at this junction they would need a healing word (2014) version, which would probably be named something like “Healing Word (Legacy)”and a healing word (2024) version, that would just be called healing word (because most up to date version always takes precedence). They would then need to duplicate all entries on the database and have one version that points to the 2024 version of the spell and one that points to the 2014 version of the spell. So that would kind that say you had a cleric enemy - you would need to have a 2024 and 2014 version of both pages because the spell links inside creature page would be pointing to different version of the spell.

now replicate that for literally everything in the game.

so I know people keep saying “just add a toggle” but it really isn’t as simple as that because of how the database currently works.

...

 

I don't think it would be as difficult as you say to make this work. Let's break it down.

Let's assume everything is coded to refer to spells using names and not IDs.

Their database already contains the 2014 version of Healing Word under the name "Healing Word". Now Healing Word has changed in 2024 so one way or another the database needs to be touched to either add a new entry or edit the existing entry's description. From a database update perspective both are equally simple and easy.

So let's take the route less disruptive to the data, and add a new entry for "Healing Word (2024)". Note I am choosing to name the new spells "2024" for least disruption, but renaming the old spells to 2014/Legacy isn't too bad either just slightly more work to go through and update existing references, so that is also a possibility and can also be done as a second stage update as well.

So far nothing is impacted, everything existing is using the Healing Word name and refers to the 2014 version.

Ok so now the 2024 version needs to be referenced in a few places.

1. The new PHB, this is easy as it's also a new entry in their data store so nothing old is impacted.

2. Spell Search page: Since we have two entries in the database they will both appear in the spell search, with the new one clearly labeled 2024. If desired a user can filter by sourcebook already to only see 2014 or 2024 version of the spell as desired.

3. 2024 Classes, Subclasses, Feats, Species, Backgrounds: These are all new entries and therefore need to be created from scratch and can therefore be made to reference "Healing Word (2024)", again nothing old is impacted. Keep in mind they have already implemented toggles for the 2014 vs 2024 character options mentioned.

4. 2024 monsters: These are all new entries and therefore need to be created from scratch and can therefore be made to reference "Healing Word (2024)", again nothing old is impacted. Again they have already implemented toggles for 2014 vs 2024 monsters.

5. Character Sheet spells management: Since we have two entries in the database they will both appear in the spell search. As there are currently no filters in that tab, If they want to improve the user experience they can add a toggle that will filter out the 2014 or 2024 versions of Healing Word.

That's is it, this is the most basic thing they could have done which causes least disruption and makes both sets of spells available to 2014 and 2024 characters respectively. And this may seem hacky, but it should have been at least a first step in the update process, and as development continues and they get past the PHB 2024 release deadline, they could then focus on making this more robust and redesigning the site so it can support multiple versions seamlessly.

 

And then the entire DDB rules engine has to be updated to use all those new names appropriately. It's, presumably, not an easy lift.

 Can you elaborate on what you mean by the DDB rules engine?

Sure! The set of computer code that knows what to display when and where and how to calculate dice rolls, etc.

In order for what you're proposing to actually work, there would have to be 2014 and 2024 versions of all the things, then the engine would have to know there are both 2014 and 2024 versions of all the things, then it would have to know if a character is 2014 or 2024, then it would have to be able to use that knowledge to link to and display all of the things that are flagged as 2014 or 2024 respectively. Just adding a toggle to show/hide wouldn't do anything, especially for anything outside of the basic character sheet info.

As an example, let's use a Staff of Power. If I have a 2014 character, the engine would need to know that so that it could grab a 2014 staff. The 2014 staff would need to know to link to the 2014 version of the spells. The character sheet would need to know that any dice rolls or mechanics involved needed to link to the 2014 versions, and etc. down the chain for everything connected to the character.

Quote from OlderThanTimeItself >>

I don't think there is much real difference between a homebrew "Acid Splash (Legacy)" and them reworking their database to do that. You can have that now - https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2595165-alter-self-legacy as one example I did as proof of concept

That works apart from the matter of links where you can't edit them like in adventure modules etc. If you want the old spell on your character sheet there it is for you to pick. Realistically no company was ever going to default to the old stuff for those when they have new stuff. Its going to default to the new rules. It just creates future problems for them and future migration issues to worry about.

With the energy that has gone into these discussions we could have had a full set of homebrew spells by now. I was just playing with it to prove its workable. I STILL think the Beyond team dropped the ball by not doing that for us but there you have it. They have a bunch of vacancies open - my guess is they are understaffed and overstretched but still had to hit the deadlines for the books dropping.

You're right, they could make an Acid Splash (Legacy) fairly easily, but it wouldn't fix the issues with the character sheet.

Anyone got any ideas for replacements for DDB? Since this service is unusable now.

Quote from Finnyous >>

but it is objectively true to say that DnD is NOT an MMO

 

What is DND beyond though? This is about "dnd" if it were about DND then you all would admit that there is no problem here and you can just use a pencil? 

All subscription based websites go through updates.

You are paying to license this stuff not even own it. You can be mad when Netflix loses a show you were paying for but you have no say in if they remove it. 

now if you’re interested in that or not… is very much up to you, but if you’re not interested - then why are you here commenting? 

 

I would love to ask the same thing of all the people who continue to threaten to leave this game and never play again who show up every 6 months to complain about their rights being "violated" There's only so many "and this is the last straws" I can take.

 If you're going to use the netflix analogy. Imagine if you could create a free account with netflix and all you get is their free content (Basic Rules set in DND Beyond). You got season 1 of series X for free with the free subscription. But you went ahead and paid money to get the rest of the seasons of series X. But now netflix is coming out with series Y which is a remake of series X. They have announced that because series Y is a better remake, they will be deleting series X from the server, you still get season 1 of series Y for free, but if you want all of the seasons of series Y if you buy it again. 

You and your watch group are only halfway through series X and you don't have time to finish it before this changeover happens. Yes, I think people would be justifiably upset that netflix is doing this. They paid money for series X and the ability to watch it. Sure, they could of bought the paperback, but they wanted to watch it and that is the reason they paid netflix for it instead of just buying the paperback. 

Quote from ArcoSto >>

Wizards of the Cost you need to not mess with us like this.  WHY wouldn't you just keep DNDBeyond with the 5e format - and create DNDBeyondONE - for the new stuff.

Something - or the very least - don't take EVERYTHING away - keep things with Legacy so we can access it - don't make it so we can't access the books we already paid for and the stuff we don't want changed.

Allow us to use 5e or One - just make it a toggle - do you want 5e to be your primary or One to be your primary.

You screw the people who are keeping you in business, not really very smart.

Your books aren't going anywhere. It's the character sheet-linked items that are being updated to the latest 5E rules.

Quote from gksmithlcw >>

Quote from Caito >>

Quote from gksmithlcw >>

Quote from Caito >>

Quote from Atieno >>

Quote from Goldeye >>

Quote from TheBatch >>

I just don't understand the lack of transparency on WHY they are doing this. There's clearly a specific reason why only spells and magic items are affected but they haven't explained it.

 

Fully done in full concience to push thier 2024 down everyones throat, claiming backwards compability (where is none) hoping they can sell a rushed unfinished product that has even more problems than the prior version.

 I genuinely just don’t think that’s true.

like honestly I get the desire to assume the worst… I’m not pro WotC at all, but I really don’t think that’s it.

i think much more likely is that the backend of the database was never written with the concept of being updated like this and so the spells and magic items have been saved under actual names, rather than id’s and so updates like this become a lot more problematic. That’s not me defending them because a fix is not impossible, it’s just a lot more labour intensive and instead I think they’ve chosen the option that’s easiest for THEM and decides we should all have to front the work load for them in fixing a problem they created.

like let’s look at healing word as just an example… 2014 healing word heals for less than 2024 healing word. The way the database works is that not only does the character sheet point to 2014 healing word currently, all instances that use healing word in the game point to the 2014 version, so that would include subclasses, feat, monsters who use the spell, magical items that use the spell and so on and so forth.

to maintain a functional 2014 database at this junction they would need a healing word (2014) version, which would probably be named something like “Healing Word (Legacy)”and a healing word (2024) version, that would just be called healing word (because most up to date version always takes precedence). They would then need to duplicate all entries on the database and have one version that points to the 2024 version of the spell and one that points to the 2014 version of the spell. So that would kind that say you had a cleric enemy - you would need to have a 2024 and 2014 version of both pages because the spell links inside creature page would be pointing to different version of the spell.

now replicate that for literally everything in the game.

so I know people keep saying “just add a toggle” but it really isn’t as simple as that because of how the database currently works.

...

 

I don't think it would be as difficult as you say to make this work. Let's break it down.

Let's assume everything is coded to refer to spells using names and not IDs.

Their database already contains the 2014 version of Healing Word under the name "Healing Word". Now Healing Word has changed in 2024 so one way or another the database needs to be touched to either add a new entry or edit the existing entry's description. From a database update perspective both are equally simple and easy.

So let's take the route less disruptive to the data, and add a new entry for "Healing Word (2024)". Note I am choosing to name the new spells "2024" for least disruption, but renaming the old spells to 2014/Legacy isn't too bad either just slightly more work to go through and update existing references, so that is also a possibility and can also be done as a second stage update as well.

So far nothing is impacted, everything existing is using the Healing Word name and refers to the 2014 version.

Ok so now the 2024 version needs to be referenced in a few places.

1. The new PHB, this is easy as it's also a new entry in their data store so nothing old is impacted.

2. Spell Search page: Since we have two entries in the database they will both appear in the spell search, with the new one clearly labeled 2024. If desired a user can filter by sourcebook already to only see 2014 or 2024 version of the spell as desired.

3. 2024 Classes, Subclasses, Feats, Species, Backgrounds: These are all new entries and therefore need to be created from scratch and can therefore be made to reference "Healing Word (2024)", again nothing old is impacted. Keep in mind they have already implemented toggles for the 2014 vs 2024 character options mentioned.

4. 2024 monsters: These are all new entries and therefore need to be created from scratch and can therefore be made to reference "Healing Word (2024)", again nothing old is impacted. Again they have already implemented toggles for 2014 vs 2024 monsters.

5. Character Sheet spells management: Since we have two entries in the database they will both appear in the spell search. As there are currently no filters in that tab, If they want to improve the user experience they can add a toggle that will filter out the 2014 or 2024 versions of Healing Word.

That's is it, this is the most basic thing they could have done which causes least disruption and makes both sets of spells available to 2014 and 2024 characters respectively. And this may seem hacky, but it should have been at least a first step in the update process, and as development continues and they get past the PHB 2024 release deadline, they could then focus on making this more robust and redesigning the site so it can support multiple versions seamlessly.

 

And then the entire DDB rules engine has to be updated to use all those new names appropriately. It's, presumably, not an easy lift.

 Can you elaborate on what you mean by the DDB rules engine?

 

Sure! The set of computer code that knows what to display when and where and how to calculate dice rolls, etc.

In order for what you're proposing to actually work, there would have to be 2014 and 2024 versions of all the things, then the engine would have to know there are both 2014 and 2024 versions of all the things, then it would have to know if a character is 2014 or 2024, then it would have to be able to use that knowledge to link to and display all of the things that are flagged as 2014 or 2024 respectively. Just adding a toggle to show/hide wouldn't do anything, especially for anything outside of the basic character sheet info.

As an example, let's use a Staff of Power. If I have a 2014 character, the engine would need to know that so that it could grab a 2014 staff. The 2014 staff would need to know to link to the 2014 version of the spells. The character sheet would need to know that any dice rolls or mechanics involved needed to link to the 2014 versions, and etc. down the chain for everything connected to the character.

 Yeh this was exactly what I was trying to explain but I think you did it better than I did.

Fundementally I’m not making excuses for WotC, I just think all the “just add a legacy toggle” comments are a bit trite because I genuinely don’t think it’s that easy.

do I care how easy it is? No… because as I said that’s not our problem, that’s WotC’s problem and that’s why we give them our money.

i genuinely do think that keeping two databases is the best solution personally. They can go ahead with what they said they intend to do and then that forms the basis of the 2024 version and not implement those changes and leave the site as is on the other version and that leaves us with the site and we know and love today.

no extra internal database messing about… it just leaves you with database’s to manage which might be an issue. (It’s certainly not an issue of size or load though because if it was they wouldn’t be telling people to homebrew everything)

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I just don't understand the lack of transparency on WHY they are doing this. There's clearly a specific reason why only spells and magic items are affected but they haven't explained it.

 

Fully done in full concience to push thier 2024 down everyones throat, claiming backwards compability (where is none) hoping they can sell a rushed unfinished product that has even more problems than the prior version.

 I genuinely just don’t think that’s true.

like honestly I get the desire to assume the worst… I’m not pro WotC at all, but I really don’t think that’s it.

i think much more likely is that the backend of the database was never written with the concept of being updated like this and so the spells and magic items have been saved under actual names, rather than id’s and so updates like this become a lot more problematic. That’s not me defending them because a fix is not impossible, it’s just a lot more labour intensive and instead I think they’ve chosen the option that’s easiest for THEM and decides we should all have to front the work load for them in fixing a problem they created.

like let’s look at healing word as just an example… 2014 healing word heals for less than 2024 healing word. The way the database works is that not only does the character sheet point to 2014 healing word currently, all instances that use healing word in the game point to the 2014 version, so that would include subclasses, feat, monsters who use the spell, magical items that use the spell and so on and so forth.

to maintain a functional 2014 database at this junction they would need a healing word (2014) version, which would probably be named something like “Healing Word (Legacy)”and a healing word (2024) version, that would just be called healing word (because most up to date version always takes precedence). They would then need to duplicate all entries on the database and have one version that points to the 2024 version of the spell and one that points to the 2014 version of the spell. So that would kind that say you had a cleric enemy - you would need to have a 2024 and 2014 version of both pages because the spell links inside creature page would be pointing to different version of the spell.

now replicate that for literally everything in the game.

so I know people keep saying “just add a toggle” but it really isn’t as simple as that because of how the database currently works.

...

 

I don't think it would be as difficult as you say to make this work. Let's break it down.

Let's assume everything is coded to refer to spells using names and not IDs.

Their database already contains the 2014 version of Healing Word under the name "Healing Word". Now Healing Word has changed in 2024 so one way or another the database needs to be touched to either add a new entry or edit the existing entry's description. From a database update perspective both are equally simple and easy.

So let's take the route less disruptive to the data, and add a new entry for "Healing Word (2024)". Note I am choosing to name the new spells "2024" for least disruption, but renaming the old spells to 2014/Legacy isn't too bad either just slightly more work to go through and update existing references, so that is also a possibility and can also be done as a second stage update as well.

So far nothing is impacted, everything existing is using the Healing Word name and refers to the 2014 version.

Ok so now the 2024 version needs to be referenced in a few places.

1. The new PHB, this is easy as it's also a new entry in their data store so nothing old is impacted.

2. Spell Search page: Since we have two entries in the database they will both appear in the spell search, with the new one clearly labeled 2024. If desired a user can filter by sourcebook already to only see 2014 or 2024 version of the spell as desired.

3. 2024 Classes, Subclasses, Feats, Species, Backgrounds: These are all new entries and therefore need to be created from scratch and can therefore be made to reference "Healing Word (2024)", again nothing old is impacted. Keep in mind they have already implemented toggles for the 2014 vs 2024 character options mentioned.

4. 2024 monsters: These are all new entries and therefore need to be created from scratch and can therefore be made to reference "Healing Word (2024)", again nothing old is impacted. Again they have already implemented toggles for 2014 vs 2024 monsters.

5. Character Sheet spells management: Since we have two entries in the database they will both appear in the spell search. As there are currently no filters in that tab, If they want to improve the user experience they can add a toggle that will filter out the 2014 or 2024 versions of Healing Word.

That's is it, this is the most basic thing they could have done which causes least disruption and makes both sets of spells available to 2014 and 2024 characters respectively. And this may seem hacky, but it should have been at least a first step in the update process, and as development continues and they get past the PHB 2024 release deadline, they could then focus on making this more robust and redesigning the site so it can support multiple versions seamlessly.

 

And then the entire DDB rules engine has to be updated to use all those new names appropriately. It's, presumably, not an easy lift.

 Can you elaborate on what you mean by the DDB rules engine?

 

Sure! The set of computer code that knows what to display when and where and how to calculate dice rolls, etc.

In order for what you're proposing to actually work, there would have to be 2014 and 2024 versions of all the things, then the engine would have to know there are both 2014 and 2024 versions of all the things, then it would have to know if a character is 2014 or 2024, then it would have to be able to use that knowledge to link to and display all of the things that are flagged as 2014 or 2024 respectively. Just adding a toggle to show/hide wouldn't do anything, especially for anything outside of the basic character sheet info.

As an example, let's use a Staff of Power. If I have a 2014 character, the engine would need to know that so that it could grab a 2014 staff. The 2014 staff would need to know to link to the 2014 version of the spells. The character sheet would need to know that any dice rolls or mechanics involved needed to link to the 2014 versions, and etc. down the chain for everything connected to the character.

 Yeh this was exactly what I was trying to explain but I think you did it better than I did.

Fundementally I’m not making excuses for WotC, I just think all the “just add a legacy toggle” comments are a bit trite because I genuinely don’t think it’s that easy.

do I care how easy it is? No… because as I said that’s not our problem, that’s WotC’s problem and that’s why we give them our money.

i genuinely do think that keeping two databases is the best solution personally. They can go ahead with what they said they intend to do and then that forms the basis of the 2024 version and not implement those changes and leave the site as is on the other version and that leaves us with the site and we know and love today.

no extra database messing about… it just leaves you with database’s to manage which might be an issue. (It’s certainly not an issue of size or load though because if it was they wouldn’t be telling people to homebrew everything)

Agreed, I think a DDB Classic site is the easiest and best option at this point, at least until they can work a redesign.

Quote from gksmithlcw >>

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Quote from Goldeye >>

Quote from TheBatch >>

I just don't understand the lack of transparency on WHY they are doing this. There's clearly a specific reason why only spells and magic items are affected but they haven't explained it.

 

Fully done in full concience to push thier 2024 down everyones throat, claiming backwards compability (where is none) hoping they can sell a rushed unfinished product that has even more problems than the prior version.

 I genuinely just don’t think that’s true.

like honestly I get the desire to assume the worst… I’m not pro WotC at all, but I really don’t think that’s it.

i think much more likely is that the backend of the database was never written with the concept of being updated like this and so the spells and magic items have been saved under actual names, rather than id’s and so updates like this become a lot more problematic. That’s not me defending them because a fix is not impossible, it’s just a lot more labour intensive and instead I think they’ve chosen the option that’s easiest for THEM and decides we should all have to front the work load for them in fixing a problem they created.

like let’s look at healing word as just an example… 2014 healing word heals for less than 2024 healing word. The way the database works is that not only does the character sheet point to 2014 healing word currently, all instances that use healing word in the game point to the 2014 version, so that would include subclasses, feat, monsters who use the spell, magical items that use the spell and so on and so forth.

to maintain a functional 2014 database at this junction they would need a healing word (2014) version, which would probably be named something like “Healing Word (Legacy)”and a healing word (2024) version, that would just be called healing word (because most up to date version always takes precedence). They would then need to duplicate all entries on the database and have one version that points to the 2024 version of the spell and one that points to the 2014 version of the spell. So that would kind that say you had a cleric enemy - you would need to have a 2024 and 2014 version of both pages because the spell links inside creature page would be pointing to different version of the spell.

now replicate that for literally everything in the game.

so I know people keep saying “just add a toggle” but it really isn’t as simple as that because of how the database currently works.

...

 

I don't think it would be as difficult as you say to make this work. Let's break it down.

Let's assume everything is coded to refer to spells using names and not IDs.

Their database already contains the 2014 version of Healing Word under the name "Healing Word". Now Healing Word has changed in 2024 so one way or another the database needs to be touched to either add a new entry or edit the existing entry's description. From a database update perspective both are equally simple and easy.

So let's take the route less disruptive to the data, and add a new entry for "Healing Word (2024)". Note I am choosing to name the new spells "2024" for least disruption, but renaming the old spells to 2014/Legacy isn't too bad either just slightly more work to go through and update existing references, so that is also a possibility and can also be done as a second stage update as well.

So far nothing is impacted, everything existing is using the Healing Word name and refers to the 2014 version.

Ok so now the 2024 version needs to be referenced in a few places.

1. The new PHB, this is easy as it's also a new entry in their data store so nothing old is impacted.

2. Spell Search page: Since we have two entries in the database they will both appear in the spell search, with the new one clearly labeled 2024. If desired a user can filter by sourcebook already to only see 2014 or 2024 version of the spell as desired.

3. 2024 Classes, Subclasses, Feats, Species, Backgrounds: These are all new entries and therefore need to be created from scratch and can therefore be made to reference "Healing Word (2024)", again nothing old is impacted. Keep in mind they have already implemented toggles for the 2014 vs 2024 character options mentioned.

4. 2024 monsters: These are all new entries and therefore need to be created from scratch and can therefore be made to reference "Healing Word (2024)", again nothing old is impacted. Again they have already implemented toggles for 2014 vs 2024 monsters.

5. Character Sheet spells management: Since we have two entries in the database they will both appear in the spell search. As there are currently no filters in that tab, If they want to improve the user experience they can add a toggle that will filter out the 2014 or 2024 versions of Healing Word.

That's is it, this is the most basic thing they could have done which causes least disruption and makes both sets of spells available to 2014 and 2024 characters respectively. And this may seem hacky, but it should have been at least a first step in the update process, and as development continues and they get past the PHB 2024 release deadline, they could then focus on making this more robust and redesigning the site so it can support multiple versions seamlessly.

 

And then the entire DDB rules engine has to be updated to use all those new names appropriately. It's, presumably, not an easy lift.

 Can you elaborate on what you mean by the DDB rules engine?

 

Sure! The set of computer code that knows what to display when and where and how to calculate dice rolls, etc.

In order for what you're proposing to actually work, there would have to be 2014 and 2024 versions of all the things, then the engine would have to know there are both 2014 and 2024 versions of all the things, then it would have to know if a character is 2014 or 2024, then it would have to be able to use that knowledge to link to and display all of the things that are flagged as 2014 or 2024 respectively. Just adding a toggle to show/hide wouldn't do anything, especially for anything outside of the basic character sheet info.

As an example, let's use a Staff of Power. If I have a 2014 character, the engine would need to know that so that it could grab a 2014 staff. The 2014 staff would need to know to link to the 2014 version of the spells. The character sheet would need to know that any dice rolls or mechanics involved needed to link to the 2014 versions, and etc. down the chain for everything connected to the character.

Right yes there would need to be 2014 and 2024 versions of all the things. But my point was that 2014 versions already exist, and they are already making 2024 versions of all the things (besides items and spells). So all the 2014 versions of things already refer to the 2014 versions of the spells. And when they created the 2024 versions of things they can point them specifically to the 2024 versions of spells. There's no need for a rules engine, it's just a series of links and references.

In your example, where there's a "Staff of Power” and "Staff of Power (2024)" the "Staff of Power" is already referencing "Fireball" and when the "Staff of Power (2024)" item is created it is instead referencing "Fireball (2024)". Again I want to point out I'm tagging the new item with 2024 for simplicity's sake, and the reverse can be done albeit with more work

By default both Staves of Power are available for a user to choose in the Inventory Management tab. Then a 2014/2024 toggle/filter can be added to the Inventory Management tab that changes what is available to choose. This is independent of what Class/Subclass/Species etc you have chosen during character creation.