Was reading through Mordenkainen's, looking through some of the 5e elf lore to get a better grounding for my next character, and I came across the ''half-elf, half-soul' sidebar.
It says that no one is sure what kind of soul is inside the body of the half-elf, but then later it says that some half-elves are capable of seeing Sehanine's moonbow in the sky, which is supposed to be reserved for ''Corellon's people.'' Doesn't this mean that at least some of them are legit elves in half-blood bodies? And yet apparently even the Seldarine can't give a straight answer to the question, so I don't know. Is there something I'm missing?
One thing to consider is exactly how you get a "half elf".
if a human & and elf make a baby, it's half-elf, that's obvious.
If a half-elf and an elf make a baby, what is the baby? It's not pure elf, and there is no quarter-elf, so it is still a half elf.
If two half-elves make a baby, then there's actually a 1/4 chance of pure-human and 1/4 chance of pure-elf, as well as 1/2 chance of half elf. You can use a genetic box diagram to show this.
However, if your parents are both half-elves, even if you're genetically pure elf, you're still going to be considered a half elf. So it makes sense that some half elves are more elfy than others, so can see or do things that pure elves can also do.
As an interesting sidenote with the genetic box diagrams, if a centaur (half horse, half human) and a mermaid (half fish, half human) had a kid, there's 1/4 chance of human, 1/4 chance of centaur, 1/4 chance of mermaid, and 1/4 chance of seahorse!*
* - Obviously this is extremely simplified for the purposes of comedy!
I think there’s meant to be some mysticism behind it. In Tolkien, which is the inspiration, half-elves eventually have to choose whether to accept the gift of elves (immortality) or of men (death). Maybe a similar thing is going on here, where the half-elf’s choices silently determine of which kindred they are in the eyes of the gods.
I think a great deal depends on the campaign setting / world in which you will be playing. I'd suggest talking to your DM about this if it is a major concern. Of course, what your character personally believes, is entirely up to you.
One thing to consider is exactly how you get a "half elf".
if a human & and elf make a baby, it's half-elf, that's obvious.
If a half-elf and an elf make a baby, what is the baby? It's not pure elf, and there is no quarter-elf, so it is still a half elf.
If two half-elves make a baby, then there's actually a 1/4 chance of pure-human and 1/4 chance of pure-elf, as well as 1/2 chance of half elf. You can use a genetic box diagram to show this.
However, if your parents are both half-elves, even if you're genetically pure elf, you're still going to be considered a half elf. So it makes sense that some half elves are more elfy than others, so can see or do things that pure elves can also do.
As an interesting sidenote with the genetic box diagrams, if a centaur (half horse, half human) and a mermaid (half fish, half human) had a kid, there's 1/4 chance of human, 1/4 chance of centaur, 1/4 chance of mermaid, and 1/4 chance of seahorse!*
* - Obviously this is extremely simplified for the purposes of comedy!
Is this really the case? Is this like a lore thing or just trying to apply irl genetics? If it's the latter I'm not so sure it really applies to half elves. or that the 'elfness vs humaness' comes down to one gene that could be so easily mathed out.
This may be my personal bias but what you are actually missing is that MToF is a terrible lore book that undermines basically everything that is known about elves and Seldarine in countless books before from previous editions.
At best treat it like a "on crazy wizard's opinion" which is accurate since Mordenkainen is still in recovery after having his mind shattered.
One thing to point out. Half elves breed true with each other. Two half elves have a half elf child.
This is established in Eberron where half elves are a distinct race with their own culture and dragon marks and have been around for a long time.
But that's Eberron. Different rules for different worlds?
Is that confirmed as a genetic difference? It always read as a result of Eberron being a place where 1/2 elves found community instead of being outsiders.
It's also telling that in, say, Forgotten Realms two elf subraces will have children that are one or the other, not mixed. But add elf plus human and you get something new. So we're already throwing normal genetics out the window.
Trying to apply real science to fantasy is generally asking for confusion and inconsistency at best, as the literal definition of fantasy is "something that is not real." Trying to mix fantasy rules and real science in a coherent, consistent, and easily understandable fashion just gets more difficult the more you analyze it. Personally, for the purposes of a D&D game and with things like interracial genetics, I find it preferable to go with what works/feels best for your situation and explain it with "because magic."
That being said, D&D is a game where everything about the world being played in is adjudicated by the DM, so if you want to selectively apply the rules of real world genetics, up to and including Thoruk's Punnet square seahorses, it is your game after all. It could definitely make for some interesting family reunions after a few generations of "adventurous genetics." And I thought my third cousins were weird...
One thing to consider is exactly how you get a "half elf".
if a human & and elf make a baby, it's half-elf, that's obvious.
If a half-elf and an elf make a baby, what is the baby? It's not pure elf, and there is no quarter-elf, so it is still a half elf.
If two half-elves make a baby, then there's actually a 1/4 chance of pure-human and 1/4 chance of pure-elf, as well as 1/2 chance of half elf. You can use a genetic box diagram to show this.
However, if your parents are both half-elves, even if you're genetically pure elf, you're still going to be considered a half elf. So it makes sense that some half elves are more elfy than others, so can see or do things that pure elves can also do.
As an interesting sidenote with the genetic box diagrams, if a centaur (half horse, half human) and a mermaid (half fish, half human) had a kid, there's 1/4 chance of human, 1/4 chance of centaur, 1/4 chance of mermaid, and 1/4 chance of seahorse!*
* - Obviously this is extremely simplified for the purposes of comedy!
Is this really the case? Is this like a lore thing or just trying to apply irl genetics? If it's the latter I'm not so sure it really applies to half elves. or that the 'elfness vs humaness' comes down to one gene that could be so easily mathed out.
Magic. Physics doesn't work the same in Faerûn, ever read Spell Jammer stuff? Why should biology work the same as reality?
Also keep in mind that MToF changed a lot of elf lore (but I've gone into all that in other threads).
Traditionally (lorewise) elves are said to have spirits (rather than souls), which is why they believe in reincarnation--but, unlike MToF implies--it wasn't something that was forced on them. There is of course the debate of whether half elves also have spirits, but if a half-elf followed the Seldarine, then in all likelihood, they would go to Arvandor, as few gods would turn away followers.
It's only the case if there were a single gene that determines which species a person belongs to, and which has two alleles displaying incomplete dominance. Bit of a stretch that one gene would determine whether you live 1000 years, do not sleep, and cannot grow facial hair, or live 100 years, need 6-8 hours of sleep every day, and can grow facial hair.
And yes, I know, anything is possible in a world with magic. My point is unless you want to get into figuring out fantasy genetics in your game world (which I kind of want to do now lol), it's probably easier to just go with the official guideline of "half-elf crossed with elf, half-elf, or human always results in half-elf". At least, I'm pretty sure that's what it says.
Are Half Elves actually just Elves? No. Mix yellow and blue and you get green. Half Elves are rejected by Gold Elves. I am not sure what the other Elves think about Half Elves. I guess it depends on the individual Elf. Humans do not seem to care for Half Elves. Humans seem to accept Half Elves and Elves about the same. A Half Elf may accept Elven culture, Human culture or both.
The Half-elf thing always confused me a bit. I currently don’t have access to any lore so I don’t know any official stuff.
I always assumed that a half-elf crossed with an elf/human was just considered a half-elf. I’ve always wondered why half-elves were always just elf-human and half-orcs are always half human. Are there no elf-dwarfs/orcs? Or half-dwarves? Are there certain races that can’t procreate with each other?
I picture half elves as being very important as evidence that something is seriously wrong with the elves.
Not the fact there are half elves, but eventually those elves begin to recognise they ARE their children as much as those with two elven parents and are as important in the schemes of things as their own noble houses.
Elrond as an example I believe he and his brother were eventually both offered the choice of remaining mortal or becoming full elven I believe the Numenoreans traced their lineage from half elves if any more knowledgeable Tolkien enthusiasts care to confirm?
There's so many ways to go with this it will be interesting to see where this thread goes with this!
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Was reading through Mordenkainen's, looking through some of the 5e elf lore to get a better grounding for my next character, and I came across the ''half-elf, half-soul' sidebar.
It says that no one is sure what kind of soul is inside the body of the half-elf, but then later it says that some half-elves are capable of seeing Sehanine's moonbow in the sky, which is supposed to be reserved for ''Corellon's people.'' Doesn't this mean that at least some of them are legit elves in half-blood bodies? And yet apparently even the Seldarine can't give a straight answer to the question, so I don't know. Is there something I'm missing?
Insert interesting signature here.
One thing to consider is exactly how you get a "half elf".
if a human & and elf make a baby, it's half-elf, that's obvious.
If a half-elf and an elf make a baby, what is the baby? It's not pure elf, and there is no quarter-elf, so it is still a half elf.
If two half-elves make a baby, then there's actually a 1/4 chance of pure-human and 1/4 chance of pure-elf, as well as 1/2 chance of half elf. You can use a genetic box diagram to show this.
However, if your parents are both half-elves, even if you're genetically pure elf, you're still going to be considered a half elf. So it makes sense that some half elves are more elfy than others, so can see or do things that pure elves can also do.
As an interesting sidenote with the genetic box diagrams, if a centaur (half horse, half human) and a mermaid (half fish, half human) had a kid, there's 1/4 chance of human, 1/4 chance of centaur, 1/4 chance of mermaid, and 1/4 chance of seahorse!*
* - Obviously this is extremely simplified for the purposes of comedy!
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I think there’s meant to be some mysticism behind it. In Tolkien, which is the inspiration, half-elves eventually have to choose whether to accept the gift of elves (immortality) or of men (death). Maybe a similar thing is going on here, where the half-elf’s choices silently determine of which kindred they are in the eyes of the gods.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
I think a great deal depends on the campaign setting / world in which you will be playing.
I'd suggest talking to your DM about this if it is a major concern.
Of course, what your character personally believes, is entirely up to you.
Is this really the case? Is this like a lore thing or just trying to apply irl genetics? If it's the latter I'm not so sure it really applies to half elves. or that the 'elfness vs humaness' comes down to one gene that could be so easily mathed out.
This may be my personal bias but what you are actually missing is that MToF is a terrible lore book that undermines basically everything that is known about elves and Seldarine in countless books before from previous editions.
At best treat it like a "on crazy wizard's opinion" which is accurate since Mordenkainen is still in recovery after having his mind shattered.
One thing to point out. Half elves breed true with each other. Two half elves have a half elf child.
This is established in Eberron where half elves are a distinct race with their own culture and dragon marks and have been around for a long time.
But that's Eberron. Different rules for different worlds?
Is that confirmed as a genetic difference? It always read as a result of Eberron being a place where 1/2 elves found community instead of being outsiders.
It's also telling that in, say, Forgotten Realms two elf subraces will have children that are one or the other, not mixed. But add elf plus human and you get something new. So we're already throwing normal genetics out the window.
Trying to apply real science to fantasy is generally asking for confusion and inconsistency at best, as the literal definition of fantasy is "something that is not real." Trying to mix fantasy rules and real science in a coherent, consistent, and easily understandable fashion just gets more difficult the more you analyze it. Personally, for the purposes of a D&D game and with things like interracial genetics, I find it preferable to go with what works/feels best for your situation and explain it with "because magic."
That being said, D&D is a game where everything about the world being played in is adjudicated by the DM, so if you want to selectively apply the rules of real world genetics, up to and including Thoruk's Punnet square seahorses, it is your game after all. It could definitely make for some interesting family reunions after a few generations of "adventurous genetics." And I thought my third cousins were weird...
Magic. Physics doesn't work the same in Faerûn, ever read Spell Jammer stuff? Why should biology work the same as reality?
Also keep in mind that MToF changed a lot of elf lore (but I've gone into all that in other threads).
Traditionally (lorewise) elves are said to have spirits (rather than souls), which is why they believe in reincarnation--but, unlike MToF implies--it wasn't something that was forced on them. There is of course the debate of whether half elves also have spirits, but if a half-elf followed the Seldarine, then in all likelihood, they would go to Arvandor, as few gods would turn away followers.
It's only the case if there were a single gene that determines which species a person belongs to, and which has two alleles displaying incomplete dominance. Bit of a stretch that one gene would determine whether you live 1000 years, do not sleep, and cannot grow facial hair, or live 100 years, need 6-8 hours of sleep every day, and can grow facial hair.
And yes, I know, anything is possible in a world with magic. My point is unless you want to get into figuring out fantasy genetics in your game world (which I kind of want to do now lol), it's probably easier to just go with the official guideline of "half-elf crossed with elf, half-elf, or human always results in half-elf". At least, I'm pretty sure that's what it says.
Are Half Elves actually just Elves? No. Mix yellow and blue and you get green. Half Elves are rejected by Gold Elves. I am not sure what the other Elves think about Half Elves. I guess it depends on the individual Elf. Humans do not seem to care for Half Elves. Humans seem to accept Half Elves and Elves about the same. A Half Elf may accept Elven culture, Human culture or both.
The Half-elf thing always confused me a bit. I currently don’t have access to any lore so I don’t know any official stuff.
I always assumed that a half-elf crossed with an elf/human was just considered a half-elf. I’ve always wondered why half-elves were always just elf-human and half-orcs are always half human. Are there no elf-dwarfs/orcs? Or half-dwarves? Are there certain races that can’t procreate with each other?
I picture half elves as being very important as evidence that something is seriously wrong with the elves.
Not the fact there are half elves, but eventually those elves begin to recognise they ARE their children as much as those with two elven parents and are as important in the schemes of things as their own noble houses.
Elrond as an example I believe he and his brother were eventually both offered the choice of remaining mortal or becoming full elven I believe the Numenoreans traced their lineage from half elves if any more knowledgeable Tolkien enthusiasts care to confirm?
There's so many ways to go with this it will be interesting to see where this thread goes with this!