So, my party's rogue does not have darksight. I am about to put him in a situation where he'll need to pick a lock, but light will absolutely run the risk of detection. The lock requires a cumulative skill check of 60, with each roll taking 1 minute. If he is using light there is a 100% chance of detection on the sixth check, and each check comes with a 1% chance of detection. This corresponds to the guard's standard schedule, plus a small chance that they are off-schedule for an unforeseen reason.
If they attempt to pick the lock in the dark, how would you handle it? From what I've seen watching the lockpickinglawyer on youtube, it's absolutely more about feel than sight. And the player of this rogue absolutely knows this also.
I don't want to defuse the tension of the situation, or the necessity of the party finding a novel solution. Do you think I should prohibit it entirely, as I think someone who knows nothing of lockpicking would? Impose disadvantage? Just a negative modifier? Or do I just allow them to sit in the dark picking the lock? I am 100% certain they are going to ask.
They're still going to have to use light to find said lock, of course, as well as finding anything behind it.
I'd just give them disadvantage. The whole Disadvantage system in 5e is basically designed for moments like this... rather than calculate a negative modifier, if you come across a situation where something is still possible but difficult, just slap disadvantage on the PC.
I would impose no penalty to pick the lock on the dark. but if there is an attached or internal trap there is a penalty to avoid tripping it..
Now nothing says there IS a Trap this time.. But saying the Rogue knows that it doesn't mess with opening picking the lock.. but does mess with avoiding traps while doing so.. raises the tension.
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Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
My initial impulse after hearing that lockpicking is more about feeling (and maybe hearing?) than sight is to say let them roll as normal. It sounds like tension is still high, and if they are going to have a hard time getting to a lock in the first place, then leave them be. It is not like they can see inside of the keyhole in the light either, so let them pick the lock in the dark once they figure out where it is. Although, if you want it harder, it makes more sense to me if you make the lock stronger rather than the rogue weaker. Perhaps there is a DC threshold they need to beat to even count towards the 60. So rolling a 9 does nothing, but rolling an 11 adds 1 point to the 60 counter (just rattling off numbers, balance is likely off here).
However, if you need more tension but not challenge, have the door make a lot of sound when it moves or when it is fully unlocked. Have the light be on in the other room so that when they open the door, light will spill out, maybe alerting the guards. Just some ideas!
Thanks all, disadvantage seems to be the way to go. I'll also add in your suggestion Toddy, and tell the rogue that sure, they can pick in the dark but they won't be able to see anything else that may or may not be happening. The door won't be trapped, but as you say, he doesn't know that.
I am still a little worried that it turns into a roll-a-thon though. Without the chance of detection, doesn't the rogue just have to roll until it unlocks?
How about adding one more thing - perhaps a nat 1 on any check results in losing grip on the tensioner, and it springs a couple feet away making a sound in the dead silence? If it just so happens to correspond with a guard nearby, I'll have them roll a (fairly high DC) perception check to hear it and investigate. I'm not looking to create an unfair and unavoidable failure condition - chances of detection from this would be very low, and even then the rogue has the opportunity to hide - but I really enjoy the idea of a 'hold your breath and pray in the dark' moment. Too much?
I know that skill checks don't ordinarily have crits and fumbles. But this lock is going to be set up in advance and described as a lock the rogue has heard of, and knows is extremely difficult to pick. Not your average everyday lock. And I'd only introduce this mechanic if picking in the dark.
My initial impulse after hearing that lockpicking is more about feeling (and maybe hearing?) than sight is to say let them roll as normal. It sounds like tension is still high, and if they are going to have a hard time getting to a lock in the first place, then leave them be. It is not like they can see inside of the keyhole in the light either, so let them pick the lock in the dark once they figure out where it is. Although, if you want it harder, it makes more sense to me if you make the lock stronger rather than the rogue weaker. Perhaps there is a DC threshold they need to beat to even count towards the 60. So rolling a 9 does nothing, but rolling an 11 adds 1 point to the 60 counter (just rattling off numbers, balance is likely off here).
However, if you need more tension but not challenge, have the door make a lot of sound when it moves or when it is fully unlocked. Have the light be on in the other room so that when they open the door, light will spill out, maybe alerting the guards. Just some ideas!
Nice, hadn't read this before my last post. Will definitely keep this in mind. My table responds really well to high tension situations, so I want to give them just that!
Skill checks don't necessarily have crits, but it's also common for Checks to have side-effects if failed by enough. Usually it takes the form of "If the player fails this check by 5 or more, something bad happens".
Another thing I've seen done with challenges that require multiple checks is to treat a nat 1 as two failures instead of just 1, or a nat 20 as two successes.
I'm in the let the Rogue do it by feel and ear. The challenge as you've mentioned is how does the rogue find the lock in the first place. Does someone in the party with dark vision guide them?
Assuming somehow the rogue gets to the lock, resolving kind of depends on what else is happening. You say the rogue needs one minute per try. Ok, so maybe with expertise and nat 20s this is two minutes minimum. What else is happening. Honestly, I'd only do the lock picking mini game if there was something time dependent raising the tension, like the guards the party might have timed or there's some time dependent scenario to get to on the other side of the door. Unless the clock is ticking for something other than a success/time tally, you are just watching someone roll dice.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
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<p>My initial impulse after hearing that lockpicking is more about feeling (and maybe hearing?) than sight is to say let them roll as normal. It sounds like tension is still high, and if they are going to have a hard time getting to a lock in the first place, then leave them be. It is not like they can see inside of the keyhole in the light either, so let them pick the lock in the dark once they figure out where it is. Although, if you want it harder, it makes more sense to me if you make the lock stronger rather than the rogue weaker. Perhaps there is a DC threshold they need to beat to even count towards the 60. So rolling a 9 does nothing, but rolling an 11 adds 1 point to the 60 counter (just rattling off numbers, balance is likely off here). </p>
<p>However, if you need more tension but not challenge, have the door make a lot of sound when it moves or when it is fully unlocked. Have the light be on in the other room so that when they open the door, light will spill out, maybe alerting the guards. Just some ideas! </p>
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<p> <br>The more I think about this, the more I love the idea of an extremely tense lockpicking scene, with perhaps multiple near misses, a release of tension, followed by the door swinging open with a loud screech of iron on iron. The rogue player is really smart, so I'll be sure to make clues available that this could happen. I already have a disgruntled ex employee planted in the town that they can overhear bitching about the proprietor, so if they befriend him he'll describe the vault door as having iron-on-iron hinges. Or perhaps I'll describe the faint squeaking of the front door or window hinges when they first break into the building, foreshadowing squeaky hinges on the vault. He should be carrying lamp oil, so if he thinks to suggest it, I'll let him pour some on the hinges to silence them.<br><br>And in the name of being an absolute bastard, the vault will of course contain lots of shiny stuff unrelated to the mcguffin. The more the rogue tries to take, the greater the chance of detection. The rogue's greed has gotten him, and the party, in trouble before, so I know they will be telling him upfront to only take the mcguffin. >:)<br><br>Thanks all, you've helped me game out an important part of my heist. Truly appreciated.</p>
In my group, we've always played where skill checks have crits, so I say go for it. It would also probably get the other non-lock-picking players something to do since they have darkvision, so it makes more sense for them to go get it despite their weaker stealth.
Although I think the tensioner flying a few feet away multiple times would be semi annoying simply because it makes the rogue seem like they have persistent butterfingers. To me, this is a fun nat 1 moment, but I'd do it only once or maybe twice. Any time after that nat 1s could be something else, such as them almost dropping the tensioner but catching them, producing a loud jingle that will trigger two more of the 1% Guard dice rolls.
I believe the entire "DC per attempt" idea is great. Must make a DC 12 or so to add to the count, failure by 5 or more deducts maybe 5 points from your cumulative total? It gives that added tension, where a crap roll can really start putting you behind, yet good roils (Tymora smiles on the Rogue tonight) lets them almost breeze through it. I like it enough that it just found a place in the campaign I am running. This is one of the reasons I read all these threads, to find new and innovative ideas for my campaigns.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
I'm in the let the Rogue do it by feel and ear. The challenge as you've mentioned is how does the rogue find the lock in the first place. Does someone in the party with dark vision guide them?
Assuming somehow the rogue gets to the lock, resolving kind of depends on what else is happening. You say the rogue needs one minute per try. Ok, so maybe with expertise and nat 20s this is two minutes minimum. What else is happening. Honestly, I'd only do the lock picking mini game if there was something time dependent raising the tension, like the guards the party might have timed or there's some time dependent scenario to get to on the other side of the door. Unless the clock is ticking for something other than a success/time tally, you are just watching someone roll dice.
The original idea was that a guard walks past the building every 5 minutes. The vault door is in a basement room, with windows next to the ceiling, visible just above the ground from outside. If there is light in the room when the guard passes, they will absolutely see it and investigate. That put a timer on the lockpicking, since the light would need to be extinguished before the guard next walks past. That of course collapsed when I realized the rogue can do everything in the dark, since they can just roll until success - even if it is at disadvantage. Then we just get to spend even more time watching the rogue roll the dice, absent any real stakes. Hence this post.
But I think everyone has given me enough options and material to avoid a roll-a-thon either with or without light.
How the rogue finds the lock in the first place is up to the party. I'm just setting up the security and gaming out some reactions to their most predictable actions. I'll leave the plan to them! Heck, maybe they'll figure out a clever plan to do this in broad daylight.
So, my party's rogue does not have darksight. I am about to put him in a situation where he'll need to pick a lock, but light will absolutely run the risk of detection. The lock requires a cumulative skill check of 60, with each roll taking 1 minute. If he is using light there is a 100% chance of detection on the sixth check, and each check comes with a 1% chance of detection. This corresponds to the guard's standard schedule, plus a small chance that they are off-schedule for an unforeseen reason.
If they attempt to pick the lock in the dark, how would you handle it? From what I've seen watching the lockpickinglawyer on youtube, it's absolutely more about feel than sight. And the player of this rogue absolutely knows this also.
I don't want to defuse the tension of the situation, or the necessity of the party finding a novel solution. Do you think I should prohibit it entirely, as I think someone who knows nothing of lockpicking would? Impose disadvantage? Just a negative modifier? Or do I just allow them to sit in the dark picking the lock? I am 100% certain they are going to ask.
They're still going to have to use light to find said lock, of course, as well as finding anything behind it.
I'd just give them disadvantage. The whole Disadvantage system in 5e is basically designed for moments like this... rather than calculate a negative modifier, if you come across a situation where something is still possible but difficult, just slap disadvantage on the PC.
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Agreed. Disadvantage is probably the best way to go. But if you want, you can add some roleplaying flair to it.
I would impose no penalty to pick the lock on the dark.
but if there is an attached or internal trap there is a penalty to avoid tripping it..
Now nothing says there IS a Trap this time.. But saying the Rogue knows that it doesn't mess with opening picking the lock.. but does mess with avoiding traps while doing so.. raises the tension.
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
My initial impulse after hearing that lockpicking is more about feeling (and maybe hearing?) than sight is to say let them roll as normal. It sounds like tension is still high, and if they are going to have a hard time getting to a lock in the first place, then leave them be. It is not like they can see inside of the keyhole in the light either, so let them pick the lock in the dark once they figure out where it is. Although, if you want it harder, it makes more sense to me if you make the lock stronger rather than the rogue weaker. Perhaps there is a DC threshold they need to beat to even count towards the 60. So rolling a 9 does nothing, but rolling an 11 adds 1 point to the 60 counter (just rattling off numbers, balance is likely off here).
However, if you need more tension but not challenge, have the door make a lot of sound when it moves or when it is fully unlocked. Have the light be on in the other room so that when they open the door, light will spill out, maybe alerting the guards. Just some ideas!
Thanks all, disadvantage seems to be the way to go. I'll also add in your suggestion Toddy, and tell the rogue that sure, they can pick in the dark but they won't be able to see anything else that may or may not be happening. The door won't be trapped, but as you say, he doesn't know that.
I am still a little worried that it turns into a roll-a-thon though. Without the chance of detection, doesn't the rogue just have to roll until it unlocks?
How about adding one more thing - perhaps a nat 1 on any check results in losing grip on the tensioner, and it springs a couple feet away making a sound in the dead silence? If it just so happens to correspond with a guard nearby, I'll have them roll a (fairly high DC) perception check to hear it and investigate. I'm not looking to create an unfair and unavoidable failure condition - chances of detection from this would be very low, and even then the rogue has the opportunity to hide - but I really enjoy the idea of a 'hold your breath and pray in the dark' moment. Too much?
I know that skill checks don't ordinarily have crits and fumbles. But this lock is going to be set up in advance and described as a lock the rogue has heard of, and knows is extremely difficult to pick. Not your average everyday lock. And I'd only introduce this mechanic if picking in the dark.
Nice, hadn't read this before my last post. Will definitely keep this in mind. My table responds really well to high tension situations, so I want to give them just that!
Skill checks don't necessarily have crits, but it's also common for Checks to have side-effects if failed by enough. Usually it takes the form of "If the player fails this check by 5 or more, something bad happens".
Another thing I've seen done with challenges that require multiple checks is to treat a nat 1 as two failures instead of just 1, or a nat 20 as two successes.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I'm in the let the Rogue do it by feel and ear. The challenge as you've mentioned is how does the rogue find the lock in the first place. Does someone in the party with dark vision guide them?
Assuming somehow the rogue gets to the lock, resolving kind of depends on what else is happening. You say the rogue needs one minute per try. Ok, so maybe with expertise and nat 20s this is two minutes minimum. What else is happening. Honestly, I'd only do the lock picking mini game if there was something time dependent raising the tension, like the guards the party might have timed or there's some time dependent scenario to get to on the other side of the door. Unless the clock is ticking for something other than a success/time tally, you are just watching someone roll dice.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
In my group, we've always played where skill checks have crits, so I say go for it. It would also probably get the other non-lock-picking players something to do since they have darkvision, so it makes more sense for them to go get it despite their weaker stealth.
Although I think the tensioner flying a few feet away multiple times would be semi annoying simply because it makes the rogue seem like they have persistent butterfingers. To me, this is a fun nat 1 moment, but I'd do it only once or maybe twice. Any time after that nat 1s could be something else, such as them almost dropping the tensioner but catching them, producing a loud jingle that will trigger two more of the 1% Guard dice rolls.
I believe the entire "DC per attempt" idea is great. Must make a DC 12 or so to add to the count, failure by 5 or more deducts maybe 5 points from your cumulative total? It gives that added tension, where a crap roll can really start putting you behind, yet good roils (Tymora smiles on the Rogue tonight) lets them almost breeze through it. I like it enough that it just found a place in the campaign I am running. This is one of the reasons I read all these threads, to find new and innovative ideas for my campaigns.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
The original idea was that a guard walks past the building every 5 minutes. The vault door is in a basement room, with windows next to the ceiling, visible just above the ground from outside. If there is light in the room when the guard passes, they will absolutely see it and investigate. That put a timer on the lockpicking, since the light would need to be extinguished before the guard next walks past. That of course collapsed when I realized the rogue can do everything in the dark, since they can just roll until success - even if it is at disadvantage. Then we just get to spend even more time watching the rogue roll the dice, absent any real stakes. Hence this post.
But I think everyone has given me enough options and material to avoid a roll-a-thon either with or without light.
How the rogue finds the lock in the first place is up to the party. I'm just setting up the security and gaming out some reactions to their most predictable actions. I'll leave the plan to them! Heck, maybe they'll figure out a clever plan to do this in broad daylight.
Agreed. Disadvantage to find the thing, but normal roll to pick the lock.