New DM here! I have experienced something and need some guidance.
I have PCs that are coming in part way through an established campaign due to those player's characters dying. The character is built to be this amazing assassin and a background with the local assassin's guild. Nothing wrong with this and I'm all for it!
Session 1: Character played off as a dark mysterious character who ran into a party of adventurers and decided to help them on their quest (end goal was to capture BBEG but assassin wanted to, you know, assassinate it instead - also fine!)
Session 2: Character starts assassinating his guild mates and allied guild members for the sake of helping this party that he just met hours ago.
There is no way this PC would backstab his guild so quickly. On top of that, it derails a major subplot that involved the PCs as they needed help from the guild to accomplish a few quests. Now they won't have that option due to the new PC changing his allegiance at the drop of the hat.
I can rewrite the subplot and change things around. The issue is how to deal with and address the player who made this character and then doesn't pay attention or care enough to follow through playing it that way, wanting to just join up with his out of character friends and their PCs.
1) In real real life most people do not know that their alignment. Hitler thought he was the good guy. So did both Trump and Biden. What someone believes about themselves is often less than worthless. What is written on his character sheet is supposed to be guide/aid to help the person roleplay.
2) Do not tell the PC what to do. Let him role play how he wants.
3) Instead decide on what his real alignment is. Write it down. Every game write down any 'evidence' of this based on his actions.
4) Have every alignment based spells etc. treat him as his real alignment.
5) Have NPC's react to him as if he is his real alignment. If he is chaotic, have chaotic npcs like him and lawful ones take an instant dislike to him. If he is evil, the same. Fiends might offer him "deals". etc. I might go so far as to have NPC's that like other PC's hint that that mis-labelled NPC is not who he seems to be.
At the risk of giving the player too much benefit of the doubt, I don't really see a problem. People change, sometimes suddenly. As such, characters may also change, sometimes suddenly. He met a new group, and it gave him a proverbial kick in the head which made him re-evaluate his life choices, so he changed his ways. Maybe the player wasn't very good at role playing this change, but not everyone is a skilled writer and actor able to convey the transition. Or, maybe he just wrote up something that sounded cool, and he's more interested in playing a game with his friends than he is in developing the narrative. Either way, I tend not to worry about it. Let the player do what he wants with his character.
That doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences. Seems like the assassins' guild would put a big ol' target on the party. And maybe go after his family.
I guess I'm struggling with how to reconcile that the player had this character as part of a bigger, deeper narrative that hinged on the character's existence and actions but now acts as if that can just be tossed out the window easily.
I'm all for just joining up and playing with friends, I get it. I know for a fact they aren't good at the RP aspect (which is why the character was involved more in the narrative - to help in that aspect and give guidance). But being not good/not interested in the RP seems different than just changing the character and its story so quickly. There doesn't seem to be a logical reason that this character would backstab his guild that he has known for his entire life after just two hours with adventurers. I wasn't trying to infer they were playing the character wrong (they can do what they want), but more along the lines of wrong compared the agreed upon story that many things in the campaign hinged upon. I know players have the right to change their character as they see fit. I just don't know where to go with it I guess. Like, they were introduced one way and then within hours act a completely different way. Maybe I'm hung up on the fact that it blindsided me and the narrative that was being created and the inconsiderate nature of not approaching me about it to determine a good way to explain the change?
As Xalthu said, the guilds are definitely targeting them now - this was the first change I made to the narrative.
How would y'all go about narrating the sudden change of heart and make sense in the story?
If the background is similar to the Criminal/Spy background, then the PC might find themselves having to murder their "reliable and trustworthy contact" granted by the background's criminal contact feature. If they do kill their contact, then you as DM have no responsibility to replace it.
If the background is similar to the Criminal/Spy background, then the PC might find themselves having to murder their "reliable and trustworthy contact" granted by the background's criminal contact feature. If they do kill their contact, then you as DM have no responsibility to replace it.
Similar but instead of just one contact it is the entire arm of a guild. I have no intention on replacing them :)
If the background is similar to the Criminal/Spy background, then the PC might find themselves having to murder their "reliable and trustworthy contact" granted by the background's criminal contact feature. If they do kill their contact, then you as DM have no responsibility to replace it.
Similar but instead of just one contact it is the entire arm of a guild. I have no intention on replacing them :)
So the PC might end up with just a single contact, if one manages to get out alive :)
Simple add into the background that the assassin is a dissident member or otherwise has a vendetta against the members who sit at the head of the guild's table. It wouldn't be the first time a management dispute or simple disagreement on point of order within a criminal organization was resolved by a arguably over the top wave of violence. If the assassin plays their cards right, and the party helps the hand along a little, the guild could wind up being more instrumental than you had initially planned for your plot arc.
Thing about DMing, I wouldn't say prepare definitively, but be open to the fact that the characters, especially those of the particularly engaged or motivated players, will impact your world in ways you didn't anticipate. Because it's their world too.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I would focus on how the guild might respond to his sudden change - direct instructions to come in for questioning and justice, or assassination attempts. If he was a key part of the guild, meets some magic users and then instantly starts killing guild members, the guild might conclude that he's being controlled by the magic users and assassinate them. Perhaps there are people in the guild who he means a lot to, who will fight to get him back. I can't imagine a guild of assassins would be forgiving enough to just cut him off and let him walk away!
Assassins aren't know for their code of conduct, I'd personally just let him do it and have regular assassination attempts on the party from other assassin guilds, make them turn up at minor boss fights, obstruct their progress through other towns/cities by forging documents and bribing officials, fake wanted posters.
Assassins are cunning and actions have consequence as long as the consequence makes sense most players are fine with it.
I always feel that Assassins have a high code of conduct, they aren't indiscriminate murderers (though they are skilled enough to be), and will generally aim to kill only the target (EG if it's a guard leader behind multiple rooms full of guards, an assassin will aim to only kill the target).
What they will do is have a price for every head. You can pay to have the local nun who looks after all the orphans murdered, but the assassin will set that price themselves, and might "price themselves out" instead of admitting they don't want to do it. They might say 2 million gold to do it, in a n effort to prevent it from happening. However, if the person coughs up that much, the assassin will consider themselves honour-bound to do the job.
I think you two missed the part where his assassin didn't display this code of conduct by murdering his guild mates and by saying assassin's aren't known for their code of conduct I was giving the player in question an out while giving the DM advice on how I'd go forward with the situation.
If the background is similar to the Criminal/Spy background, then the PC might find themselves having to murder their "reliable and trustworthy contact" granted by the background's criminal contact feature. If they do kill their contact, then you as DM have no responsibility to replace it.
Similar but instead of just one contact it is the entire arm of a guild. I have no intention on replacing them :)
So the PC might end up with just a single contact, if one manages to get out alive :)
If I was that contact I wouldn't be so eager to help the PC. :P
Thanks everyone so far, you've given me a good deal to think about.
I'm leaning toward the idea that the guild is certainly going to come after him in particular and will surprise the party from time to time, especially if they are in specific guild controlled territory. The other PCs will just be collateral damage and give them a chance to protect the assassin PC, let him fight it alone (could be an interesting plot moment), or be attacked themselves (just as suggested where the assassin meets magic users and suddenly attacks the guild means they are to blame).
Also, it's not necessarily a question of alignement, he was an assassin, he still assassinated (just consider the lawful/chaotic part, that swift a backstab is probably not very lawful). And if you plan to betray an assassin's guild, you'd better have the first strike and do it hard.
In the end, it's still worth having a conversation with the player, to ask him what he thought about the start of the campaign, and explain how his character reacted and why. Do not put it aggressively, you can just be truthful about the fact that it will help you better design the following acts of the campaign if you understand the way the character behaves.
Yeah, he was lawful neutral so that's what caught me off guard in session. I'll converse with the player and this approach is great advice. I'm not very good at being "low confrontation" when I feel defensive (how dare you screw up my story?!) and when I'm forgetting "oh, right, it's their story too!". This is a good reminder so thank you!
Yep, sounds like you have a plan. I too would have trouble with a player stating something for their backstory and then changing it all when they enter the game. But let's face it. Every time you paint a mini... a good chance a character will die. Every time you weave in plot points to go with a backstory... a good chance they will change.
But changing really isn't necessarily the problem... and I'm still going to committ my time resources to help embed the player in the world... and when they go off and tinker with it on the fly, I have no problem tinkering with it when we aren't at the table and there being consequences to the action. "Oh? You assassinate your former colleagues? Ok..." [scribbles furiously on a notepad]. Party tension escalates. Several sessions pass. Tensions ease. Then in the middle of the night... the consequences come to visit. Sure, it might be that they roll poorly on a nighttime watch, the guild finds the opportunity and was able to finally knock the party member out with a drug or a sap. Or maybe the guildmaster arrives in their room in a dream and has a convseration in the middle of the night. Or they receive a letter of summons. Or a letter with the name of a party member's family or whatever. Yes, yes... I know... "Player Agency! Don't harm the players and all that jazz..." I'm not going to take away their ability to react and I won't kill them. But relocate them into a sewer and throw in some hard questions? No problem. Cut scenes between the party finding out their friend is missing to interrogation scenes can be weighty and powerful if everyone gets a chance to shine. And I'll let you play your character your way... but I will always invoke consequences. Just as if they went off to slay the dragon... sometimes the consequences are treasure. Sometimes the consequences are hard questions in the dead still of the night.
I always feel that Assassins have a high code of conduct, they aren't indiscriminate murderers (though they are skilled enough to be), and will generally aim to kill only the target (EG if it's a guard leader behind multiple rooms full of guards, an assassin will aim to only kill the target).
Indeed! If the party wanted indiscriminate murderers they would just hire a party of PCs to do the job for them ;-)
I'm leaning toward the idea that the guild is certainly going to come after him in particular and will surprise the party from time to time, especially if they are in specific guild controlled territory. The other PCs will just be collateral damage and give them a chance to protect the assassin PC, let him fight it alone (could be an interesting plot moment), or be attacked themselves (just as suggested where the assassin meets magic users and suddenly attacks the guild means they are to blame).
Of course, the assassin's guild will do their research on their ex-comrades new current-comrades, and ensure that they know how to neutralise each one of them.
There is no way this PC would backstab his guild so quickly.
Well, obviously there is a way, since they did exactly that. :-)
Alignment is always based on what a character does. If a player has written "lawful good" on their piece of paper, but is having their character act in an evil and chaotic manner, then their character is actually chaotic evil.
Why did they write "lawful good"? Perhaps they want their character to aspire to LG but not there yet. Perhaps they don't understand law and good with respect to this game? Perhaps they are simply dreaming or being really hopeful?
I feel your pain. We've all been there. No plan survives contact with players.
You have two choices. Talk with the player to change the character behaviour, or rewite the plot. Both are OK, so choose whichever one you and the players are happiest with.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hello!
New DM here! I have experienced something and need some guidance.
I have PCs that are coming in part way through an established campaign due to those player's characters dying. The character is built to be this amazing assassin and a background with the local assassin's guild. Nothing wrong with this and I'm all for it!
Session 1: Character played off as a dark mysterious character who ran into a party of adventurers and decided to help them on their quest (end goal was to capture BBEG but assassin wanted to, you know, assassinate it instead - also fine!)
Session 2: Character starts assassinating his guild mates and allied guild members for the sake of helping this party that he just met hours ago.
There is no way this PC would backstab his guild so quickly. On top of that, it derails a major subplot that involved the PCs as they needed help from the guild to accomplish a few quests. Now they won't have that option due to the new PC changing his allegiance at the drop of the hat.
I can rewrite the subplot and change things around. The issue is how to deal with and address the player who made this character and then doesn't pay attention or care enough to follow through playing it that way, wanting to just join up with his out of character friends and their PCs.
Help! Thanks!
1) In real real life most people do not know that their alignment. Hitler thought he was the good guy. So did both Trump and Biden. What someone believes about themselves is often less than worthless. What is written on his character sheet is supposed to be guide/aid to help the person roleplay.
2) Do not tell the PC what to do. Let him role play how he wants.
3) Instead decide on what his real alignment is. Write it down. Every game write down any 'evidence' of this based on his actions.
4) Have every alignment based spells etc. treat him as his real alignment.
5) Have NPC's react to him as if he is his real alignment. If he is chaotic, have chaotic npcs like him and lawful ones take an instant dislike to him. If he is evil, the same. Fiends might offer him "deals". etc. I might go so far as to have NPC's that like other PC's hint that that mis-labelled NPC is not who he seems to be.
At the risk of giving the player too much benefit of the doubt, I don't really see a problem. People change, sometimes suddenly. As such, characters may also change, sometimes suddenly. He met a new group, and it gave him a proverbial kick in the head which made him re-evaluate his life choices, so he changed his ways. Maybe the player wasn't very good at role playing this change, but not everyone is a skilled writer and actor able to convey the transition. Or, maybe he just wrote up something that sounded cool, and he's more interested in playing a game with his friends than he is in developing the narrative. Either way, I tend not to worry about it. Let the player do what he wants with his character.
That doesn't mean there shouldn't be consequences. Seems like the assassins' guild would put a big ol' target on the party. And maybe go after his family.
Those are all great points, thanks!
I guess I'm struggling with how to reconcile that the player had this character as part of a bigger, deeper narrative that hinged on the character's existence and actions but now acts as if that can just be tossed out the window easily.
I'm all for just joining up and playing with friends, I get it. I know for a fact they aren't good at the RP aspect (which is why the character was involved more in the narrative - to help in that aspect and give guidance). But being not good/not interested in the RP seems different than just changing the character and its story so quickly. There doesn't seem to be a logical reason that this character would backstab his guild that he has known for his entire life after just two hours with adventurers. I wasn't trying to infer they were playing the character wrong (they can do what they want), but more along the lines of wrong compared the agreed upon story that many things in the campaign hinged upon. I know players have the right to change their character as they see fit. I just don't know where to go with it I guess. Like, they were introduced one way and then within hours act a completely different way. Maybe I'm hung up on the fact that it blindsided me and the narrative that was being created and the inconsiderate nature of not approaching me about it to determine a good way to explain the change?
As Xalthu said, the guilds are definitely targeting them now - this was the first change I made to the narrative.
How would y'all go about narrating the sudden change of heart and make sense in the story?
If the background is similar to the Criminal/Spy background, then the PC might find themselves having to murder their "reliable and trustworthy contact" granted by the background's criminal contact feature. If they do kill their contact, then you as DM have no responsibility to replace it.
Similar but instead of just one contact it is the entire arm of a guild. I have no intention on replacing them :)
So the PC might end up with just a single contact, if one manages to get out alive :)
Simple add into the background that the assassin is a dissident member or otherwise has a vendetta against the members who sit at the head of the guild's table. It wouldn't be the first time a management dispute or simple disagreement on point of order within a criminal organization was resolved by a arguably over the top wave of violence. If the assassin plays their cards right, and the party helps the hand along a little, the guild could wind up being more instrumental than you had initially planned for your plot arc.
Thing about DMing, I wouldn't say prepare definitively, but be open to the fact that the characters, especially those of the particularly engaged or motivated players, will impact your world in ways you didn't anticipate. Because it's their world too.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Maybe the character is schizophrenic or has other issues
Thanks all! This is encouraging and providing good ideas!
I would focus on how the guild might respond to his sudden change - direct instructions to come in for questioning and justice, or assassination attempts. If he was a key part of the guild, meets some magic users and then instantly starts killing guild members, the guild might conclude that he's being controlled by the magic users and assassinate them. Perhaps there are people in the guild who he means a lot to, who will fight to get him back. I can't imagine a guild of assassins would be forgiving enough to just cut him off and let him walk away!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
Assassins aren't know for their code of conduct, I'd personally just let him do it and have regular assassination attempts on the party from other assassin guilds, make them turn up at minor boss fights, obstruct their progress through other towns/cities by forging documents and bribing officials, fake wanted posters.
Assassins are cunning and actions have consequence as long as the consequence makes sense most players are fine with it.
I always feel that Assassins have a high code of conduct, they aren't indiscriminate murderers (though they are skilled enough to be), and will generally aim to kill only the target (EG if it's a guard leader behind multiple rooms full of guards, an assassin will aim to only kill the target).
What they will do is have a price for every head. You can pay to have the local nun who looks after all the orphans murdered, but the assassin will set that price themselves, and might "price themselves out" instead of admitting they don't want to do it. They might say 2 million gold to do it, in a n effort to prevent it from happening. However, if the person coughs up that much, the assassin will consider themselves honour-bound to do the job.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
I think you two missed the part where his assassin didn't display this code of conduct by murdering his guild mates and by saying assassin's aren't known for their code of conduct I was giving the player in question an out while giving the DM advice on how I'd go forward with the situation.
If I was that contact I wouldn't be so eager to help the PC. :P
Wow, this is some excellent advice!
Thanks everyone so far, you've given me a good deal to think about.
I'm leaning toward the idea that the guild is certainly going to come after him in particular and will surprise the party from time to time, especially if they are in specific guild controlled territory. The other PCs will just be collateral damage and give them a chance to protect the assassin PC, let him fight it alone (could be an interesting plot moment), or be attacked themselves (just as suggested where the assassin meets magic users and suddenly attacks the guild means they are to blame).
Yeah, he was lawful neutral so that's what caught me off guard in session. I'll converse with the player and this approach is great advice. I'm not very good at being "low confrontation" when I feel defensive (how dare you screw up my story?!) and when I'm forgetting "oh, right, it's their story too!". This is a good reminder so thank you!
Yep, sounds like you have a plan. I too would have trouble with a player stating something for their backstory and then changing it all when they enter the game. But let's face it. Every time you paint a mini... a good chance a character will die. Every time you weave in plot points to go with a backstory... a good chance they will change.
But changing really isn't necessarily the problem... and I'm still going to committ my time resources to help embed the player in the world... and when they go off and tinker with it on the fly, I have no problem tinkering with it when we aren't at the table and there being consequences to the action. "Oh? You assassinate your former colleagues? Ok..." [scribbles furiously on a notepad]. Party tension escalates. Several sessions pass. Tensions ease. Then in the middle of the night... the consequences come to visit. Sure, it might be that they roll poorly on a nighttime watch, the guild finds the opportunity and was able to finally knock the party member out with a drug or a sap. Or maybe the guildmaster arrives in their room in a dream and has a convseration in the middle of the night. Or they receive a letter of summons. Or a letter with the name of a party member's family or whatever. Yes, yes... I know... "Player Agency! Don't harm the players and all that jazz..." I'm not going to take away their ability to react and I won't kill them. But relocate them into a sewer and throw in some hard questions? No problem. Cut scenes between the party finding out their friend is missing to interrogation scenes can be weighty and powerful if everyone gets a chance to shine. And I'll let you play your character your way... but I will always invoke consequences. Just as if they went off to slay the dragon... sometimes the consequences are treasure. Sometimes the consequences are hard questions in the dead still of the night.
Indeed! If the party wanted indiscriminate murderers they would just hire a party of PCs to do the job for them ;-)
Of course, the assassin's guild will do their research on their ex-comrades new current-comrades, and ensure that they know how to neutralise each one of them.
Well, obviously there is a way, since they did exactly that. :-)
Alignment is always based on what a character does. If a player has written "lawful good" on their piece of paper, but is having their character act in an evil and chaotic manner, then their character is actually chaotic evil.
Why did they write "lawful good"? Perhaps they want their character to aspire to LG but not there yet. Perhaps they don't understand law and good with respect to this game? Perhaps they are simply dreaming or being really hopeful?
I feel your pain. We've all been there. No plan survives contact with players.
You have two choices. Talk with the player to change the character behaviour, or rewite the plot. Both are OK, so choose whichever one you and the players are happiest with.