Party of 6 split, 3 players go to one of the rougher taverns in Neverwinter to arrange transport to the Sea of Moving Ice to the north. One player chooses to bring his pet young Wyvern into the bar (which of course freaks everyone out and everyone is demanding he leave). I ask him if he's sure, he says yes. I ask him to make an animal handling check to see if he can keep it in check in the crowded tavern. He rolls a 5. I tell him the Wyvern doesn't attack, it just freaks out a little and its tail just barely pokes one of the patrons who doesn't notice.... but the sorcerer notices and knows the patron has about 4 minutes before the poison kicks in... I ask him what does he want to do, does he want to help the man or tell his teammates? He says no, he wants to tell no-one. The group talks to the barkeep, finds their point of contact with a different pirate crew, and another Player is asking if he can speak with the point of contact outside. I'm telling them each step of the way its been 30 sec, 1 min, etc. The player never chooses to tell anyone. I tell them the patron falls over (still says nothing to anyone)... his friends roll a 3 on their investigation so they think he's just passed out drunk and start to check on him (still says nothing), right when the group is about to walk out they roll an 18 investigation and see their friend foaming at the mouth along with the wyvern wound. One of the crew screams "Murderer" and starts to run to get the town guard. The Monk grabs the guy and throws a punch... that's where we ended the session. They killed a crew member of a long ship with the entire crew and captain in the tavern. That's 40 people. The Players had to surrender their weapons, component pouches, and arcane focuses to the quartermaster when entering the city. (One player pulled a Gandalf and kept his Staff of the Python as a "walking stick").
They, as a side quest, are running Ch. 7 of Storm King's Thunder to travel to the Sea of Moving Ice to kill a frost Giant in the north and save two white dragons on behalf of Tiamat. They have 15 days to get up there and back... leaving them 3 spare days in case they get lost at sea or delayed, etc. Aside from treasure, the main hook on the quest is for the Sorcerer to accelerate the growth of his pet/mount.
*Another note, the Wyvern was offered as an egg to the Sorcerer. It required his blood and an incantation to hatch which tied their fates. I haven't decided if that means either simply his soul is pledged as collateral to the Wyvern's safety... or if his life and soul are tied to the Wyvern...
What would you do? They chose to bring a monster into a bar, it poisoned someone, they chose not to leave or help the person who has now died, and now have started a fight with the crew member going to get the guards. All 39 Bandit and 1 Mage Captain are going to stand up... what would you do as a DM? Here are some thoughts
Beat them, rob them, steal the Wyvern, and turn them over to the authorities... the other two party members can try to get them out but they will lose their Gold, Time, and point of contact for Transport?
Offer them an opportunity to compensate the Captain and the member's family (most of their gold) and the other crew is no longer interested in offering passage to trouble makers
#1 but instead of turning them over to law enforcement, kill the wyvern (damning the Sorcerer's Soul or killing him)... and if it doesn't kill the Sorcerer they take his tongue... forcing him to use Subtle Spell when he casts spells until he can find someone who can cast Regenerate.
Other suggestions? What would you do?
*Edit: By the way I'm just asking for how you would plan/respond. The Players may of course have a plan I'm not aware of (eg. Sorcerer casts Thunder Step and the group enters a chase sequence to flee to the City of Luskan to the north... who knows).
** Player and group were not taken off guard by actions/rolls. No-one is upset in the group, they figured this would happen. Like I said he may very well have a plan (he can still cast spells with verbal/somatic components). So there isn't any "fault" or anyone did anything "wrong"... this is what his Player has chosen to do and that's fine, and he knows its an extreme situation. He's not "wrong" for doing it, at least I don't view it that way. I do view it as reckless, but that's how he likes to run his player (can't do it in real life). So its not "on him" or "on the DM." The point of the question is just to get different perspectives on what other DM's do when Players take more extreme actions in lawful big cities? I really appreciate these responses and insight so I can see how different DMs would handle the NPC's response (not handle the Player as no-one has done anything wrong).
Definitely kill the wyvern, call the city guard, and siege them inside of the tavern. Force them to surrender, or fight their way out and possibly die.
I think the first question you must ask is whether the bandit group trust authority enough to hand the party over. Obvious assumption is that being bandits, they tend to have a more vigilante approach to justice, but I don't want to discount any nuance of character you may have for this group.
If they want to mete out justice themselves, then make it clear they are getting set to administer a beating with intent of killing the wyvern at least, and probably the sorcerer too (regardless of any soul-link to the wyvern). Then let the players deal with that as they please. Let them do their own risk assessment and either fight, flee or try to show contrition and negotiate a settlement. Even if the the bandit captain backs down from killing the sorcerer, he will likely want the wyvern dead as part of any deal, and again you should let the party (presumably) try to talk him down from this position. I'd not go down the path of taking the sorcerer's tongue - that seems a bit arbitrary and doesn't fit the crime unless he ordered the wyvern's actions.
Similar kind of thing if they decide to turn them over to the authorities. Appropriate punishment would be imprisonment of the sorcerer for failing to control a dangerous animal, and putting down the wyvern (or if you're more soft-hearted, maybe put it in a zoo or circus, or whatever fits your game). I'd say this is the more difficult position for the party, since a lawful NPC is by nature less likely to stray from the prescribed solution. But you could certainly plant a corrupt officer/jailer. Or schedule out the execution a few days to give them a chance to spring the wyvern.
Whatever choice you make, I agree that this group is no longer interested in having the PCs as clients.
A longship captain is going to know when things are valuable, and a partially trained wyvern is one of those things. They will certainly aim to beat the party unconscious, hand them over to the guards and then take the wyvern to sell on, or as their own mascot. This could lead to either chasing them down to recover the wyvern (or to find out who they sold it to, depending on the timescale at play) or them thinking the wyvern is dead and encountering the captain later, now with a trained wyvern at his command (perhaps with some collar of servitude on it which could be broken to release it back to the sorcerer) which they will recognize as their wyvern, leading to conflict when they're more suited to it (IE have weapons and spell components).
A longship captain is going to know when things are valuable, and a partially trained wyvern is one of those things. They will certainly aim to beat the party unconscious, hand them over to the guards and then take the wyvern to sell on, or as their own mascot. This could lead to either chasing them down to recover the wyvern (or to find out who they sold it to, depending on the timescale at play) or them thinking the wyvern is dead and encountering the captain later, now with a trained wyvern at his command (perhaps with some collar of servitude on it which could be broken to release it back to the sorcerer) which they will recognize as their wyvern, leading to conflict when they're more suited to it (IE have weapons and spell components).
I like this. It's also another reason for them to not involve the authorities. Administer beating, steal wyvern (and anything else of obvious value they are carrying/wearing). Sorcerer faces consequences of actions, without a cliched PC prison break or a capricious looking PC death. Bandits aren't murderers, so they leave them bloodied, but stable, in an alley behind the tavern.
But if I'm the DM, I'm stopping right here and having an OOC conversation with the table, in which I am going to explain that I prefer a high degree of verisimilitude in my worlds, and that a character bringing a wyvern into a bog-standard tavern breaks that verisimilitude. I'm explaining this is not a "gonzo" game or some sort of a cartoon version of D&D that I am running, and I am not willing to run a game in which the players are so willing to break immersion "just cuz." I'm going to further explain that if that is the kind of game they want to play, they will need to have someone else be the DM.
Now... do you still want to bring the wyvern into the tavern?
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Something to keep in mind... Scythian never said this crew of sailors were bandits, just that they're using the Bandit stat-block to represent each crew member. These appear to be law-abiding, albeit rough-and-tumble sailors who just witnessed their crewmate die in what is either dangerous negligence or a very subtle assassination.
I'm assuming they're also unarmed, if weapons are turned over right at the front gate, so it's basically a giant fistfight. I don't think these sailors would intend to kill the party, but instead restrain or knock them unconscious until the guard arrives... I'd say it takes 3 rounds of combat for the guy who dashed out the door to come back with a guard. So the party has 3 rounds to either escape, make a deal of some kind with the Captain, or, if they're incredibly skilled/lucky, defeat 40 guys and then take out a guard.
Whatever the case, I think that, if they're caught by the guard in any capacity, the party is arrested/fined, and the Wyvern is confiscated. I'd say plan for some kind of potential trial... give the players the opportunity to rescue the Wyvern... whether through negotiation, bribery, simply arguing their case in court, or a daring last-second rescue.
One of them brought his clearly deadly pet into a tavern, and it stung someone and they died because of it. The logical consequences:
The sailors in the bar are drinking. They just saw one of their mates die to a wyvern sting. At the very least, they'll want to kill the wyvern. If they are Chaotic, they'll also likely kill the owner, and if his friends get in the way, so be it. If they're Lawful, they'll want to apprehend them and hand the culprit over to the authorities for trial.
If they attack: run it as a fight. The players got themselves into it. Don't pander to "but they might die." If they die because they did something stupid, then they die. This has to exist in a game of D&D because if it doesn't, all the dice rolling is for nothing and you're giving them unreasonable outs.
If they seek to hand over to the authorities and the character surrenders, then you can either decide a "wergild" type payment for the sailor's life to his next of kin, or straight up hanging, or a jail term (the last being unlikely in a pre modern world).
However...
You kind of got them into this mess by deciding that a roll of 5 on an animal handling check results in the wyvern attacking someone by mistake. In a way that put the players into a pretty harsh situation, as it was never intended. If the wyvern was freaking out, why was anyone even close to it? Was there a way out of it for them?
The players made a dumb decision to bring the wyvern in with them, but I think you made a bad decision by making the result of one d20 roll the accidental murder of an innocent person. Like it or not, the death is moved from the DM's hands to the character's hands - it's directly their fault now. If you warned them "this wyvern may get spooked and attack" before they went in then that's on them, but if not then eesh, this was one bad roll to dictate a character's fate in too many ways.
OK there's a lot that seems fishy to me on this on the DM's side.
So taking the wyvern into the tavern is reckless, sure. But a player isn't going to assume such bad outcomes.
Now wyverns are a little bit reckless in nature and they are difficult to tame, which is understandable. So yes, the call for an Animal Handling check is good. However, as Sanvael points out: a failure on the check resulting in the wyvern killing people is extreme. Firstly, it is animal handling then an "accidental brush" with the stinger shouldn't be the outcome because that has nothing to do with the player. Basically the wyvern accidentally brushing their stinger on somebody is the equivalent of a character accidentally stabbing people. Do you roll to see if your player characters accidentally punch/stab people? No. The stinger is an attack option. When not being used the stinger is curled up - there is no risk of an accidental stinging.
Furthermore, stinging is a deliberate action - and it requires such. It's not a poisoned talon or claw. It's a stinger. It's not oozing venom that kills on contact. It's a stinger - it needs to purposefully puncture the skin - this pushes on muscles that trigger the excretion of the venom. That's a "stinger".
So for this victim to not be aware a large stinger broke his skin and injected instantly painful venom is.... Weird. Especially considering the wyvern venom doesn't "poison" the target - it's a sudden burst of poison damage and then it's gone - there's no poisoned condition being inflicted.
So you made the judgement at that specific moment to have the wyvern be clumsy, and you changed how the wyvern sting works, how attack rolls work (since it seems no attack roll was made by the wyvern), and then you decided to roll multiple investigations by the other npcs until eventually one gets a success so you can have then cry "murder" - something that is very immersion breaking. If somebody in a bar who has been drinking passes out and they're breathing when you check them and don't find anything suspicious - you'd leave them for a fair while, quite possibly hours, before it's time to leave and you'd check them again.
You set this on the characters. You are to blame here, not the players.
What you should have done, is if they failed the animal handling, the wyvern might start doing things that would be disruptive - perhaps it spots a rat and goes to capture the newfound prey, perhaps it jumps onto a table scattering mugs and glasses startling patrons, or some such. Then you can have patrons start to take aggressive stances - which makes the wyvern nervous and defensive. At THAT point you could then make the player roll another animal handling check to calm the wyvern down. On success, the wyvern calms but still on edge and the charcter warned to keep it under control or leave. If fail then the wyvern might go to attack the aggressive patrons -- roll initiative. It's now a fight between wyvern and patrons that are being aggressive. The character/party might get a turn in advance of the wyvern's and if so they have a chance to grab it (contested grapple). If they do, consider the fight over and they are forced to leave the premises on threat of attack/guards/etc. If they fail and the wyvern manages to attack a patron - then a fight may break out and even if the party can subdue the wyvern from hurting others the guards may be called to arrest them. Go from there.
This was your screw up.
Now, OK, these happen. My suggestion to you would be to have a frank discussion with the party, much like BioWizard suggests, admit your fault, and ask if they would be inclined to roll back time to before they entered the place and once again ask if they want to enter with the wyvern - advising there will be checks and there remains a strong possibility that bringing a young untamed wyvern into a crowded place may result chaos.
I'm assuming untamed because it's young and the sorc is interested in aging it faster so it can be a mount. If, however, this was a tamed wyvern - then no animal handling check should have been called for at all.
You made the decision to give them a wyvern. You should not punish them for having one.
You mention some magic ritual bond with the wyvern. Maybe use that to say it's tamed without the years of training it takes - at least enough to not have to worry about derailing your own sessions.
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Something to keep in mind... Scythian never said this crew of sailors were bandits, just that they're using the Bandit stat-block to represent each crew member. These appear to be law-abiding, albeit rough-and-tumble sailors who just witnessed their crewmate die in what is either dangerous negligence or a very subtle assassination.
I'm assuming they're also unarmed, if weapons are turned over right at the front gate, so it's basically a giant fistfight. I don't think these sailors would intend to kill the party, but instead restrain or knock them unconscious until the guard arrives... I'd say it takes 3 rounds of combat for the guy who dashed out the door to come back with a guard. So the party has 3 rounds to either escape, make a deal of some kind with the Captain, or, if they're incredibly skilled/lucky, defeat 40 guys and then take out a guard.
Whatever the case, I think that, if they're caught by the guard in any capacity, the party is arrested/fined, and the Wyvern is confiscated. I'd say plan for some kind of potential trial... give the players the opportunity to rescue the Wyvern... whether through negotiation, bribery, simply arguing their case in court, or a daring last-second rescue.
You are correct in that I'm just using a Bandit Stat Block... I could have used a Guard just as easily. Honestly I didn't start trying to figure out the details of the other crew until he said he was bringing the young Wyvern into the tavern... I didn't think he would do that. You don't bring a horse into a Saloon... you definitely don't bring a Cougar into a saloon. And its a major city... Neverwinter is the "Jewel of the North"... its not some outskirts mining town.
They had entered through the NE side of Neverwinter, went through, exited the City walls again to the West to enter the docks. The docks don't necessarily have a quartermaster as the Tavern they went into was the "Beached Leviathan." I envision they are ship hands that may be smugglers secretly, but they don't make trouble with the local authorities to jeopardize their access to the Port. They are more than happy to take justice in their own hands if egged on, but up until a certain threshold they will respect the sovereignty of the Port/Neverwinter.
OK there's a lot that seems fishy to me on this on the DM's side.
So taking the wyvern into the tavern is reckless, sure. But a player isn't going to assume such bad outcomes.
Now wyverns are a little bit reckless in nature and they are difficult to tame, which is understandable. So yes, the call for an Animal Handling check is good. However, as Sanvael points out: a failure on the check resulting in the wyvern killing people is extreme. Firstly, it is animal handling then an "accidental brush" with the stinger shouldn't be the outcome because that has nothing to do with the player. Basically the wyvern accidentally brushing their stinger on somebody is the equivalent of a character accidentally stabbing people. Do you roll to see if your player characters accidentally punch/stab people? No. The stinger is an attack option. When not being used the stinger is curled up - there is no risk of an accidental stinging.
Furthermore, stinging is a deliberate action - and it requires such. It's not a poisoned talon or claw. It's a stinger. It's not oozing venom that kills on contact. It's a stinger - it needs to purposefully puncture the skin - this pushes on muscles that trigger the excretion of the venom. That's a "stinger".
So for this victim to not be aware a large stinger broke his skin and injected instantly painful venom is.... Weird. Especially considering the wyvern venom doesn't "poison" the target - it's a sudden burst of poison damage and then it's gone - there's no poisoned condition being inflicted.
So you made the judgement at that specific moment to have the wyvern be clumsy, and you changed how the wyvern sting works, how attack rolls work (since it seems no attack roll was made by the wyvern), and then you decided to roll multiple investigations by the other npcs until eventually one gets a success so you can have then cry "murder" - something that is very immersion breaking. If somebody in a bar who has been drinking passes out and they're breathing when you check them and don't find anything suspicious - you'd leave them for a fair while, quite possibly hours, before it's time to leave and you'd check them again.
You set this on the characters. You are to blame here, not the players.
What you should have done, is if they failed the animal handling, the wyvern might start doing things that would be disruptive - perhaps it spots a rat and goes to capture the newfound prey, perhaps it jumps onto a table scattering mugs and glasses startling patrons, or some such. Then you can have patrons start to take aggressive stances - which makes the wyvern nervous and defensive. At THAT point you could then make the player roll another animal handling check to calm the wyvern down. On success, the wyvern calms but still on edge and the charcter warned to keep it under control or leave. If fail then the wyvern might go to attack the aggressive patrons -- roll initiative. It's now a fight between wyvern and patrons that are being aggressive. The character/party might get a turn in advance of the wyvern's and if so they have a chance to grab it (contested grapple). If they do, consider the fight over and they are forced to leave the premises on threat of attack/guards/etc. If they fail and the wyvern manages to attack a patron - then a fight may break out and even if the party can subdue the wyvern from hurting others the guards may be called to arrest them. Go from there.
This was your screw up.
Now, OK, these happen. My suggestion to you would be to have a frank discussion with the party, much like BioWizard suggests, admit your fault, and ask if they would be inclined to roll back time to before they entered the place and once again ask if they want to enter with the wyvern - advising there will be checks and there remains a strong possibility that bringing a young untamed wyvern into a crowded place may result chaos.
I'm assuming untamed because it's young and the sorc is interested in aging it faster so it can be a mount. If, however, this was a tamed wyvern - then no animal handling check should have been called for at all.
You made the decision to give them a wyvern. You should not punish them for having one.
You mention some magic ritual bond with the wyvern. Maybe use that to say it's tamed without the years of training it takes - at least enough to not have to worry about derailing your own sessions.
Wow, ok. So I appreciate your opinion, although a bit brash.
In our last campaign (I wasn't DM) he had a griffon that he used to break down townfolk door for purposes of group extortion. I told them when entering the City that this was not some off-trail town, it was one of the bigger Cities in Faerun. It has a strong police/military force and it is a law abiding down (as opposed to say Baldur's Gate). They understood, but they like to test limits too...which I'm cool with but it has to be grounded in some reality, not slapstick.
To be clear, a Wyvern is a dragon... its feral... he got it in Avernus (Hell) and they've been non-stop fighting demons and devils. He has made no attempt to train it, he just hatched it. He hasn't taken it to a stable, researched training, or in the slightest mentioned wanting to tame it... he enjoys its wild antics. They've dipped into the Material Plane as a side quest on behalf of a quest for Tiamat to quell the Frost Giant's pursuit of the Ring of Winter / Rescue two White Dragons (Players and I needed a break from the doom/gloom of Avernus). I have no problem giving my player a powerful item/pet if it comes with risk/responsibility. Respectfully, I disagree with "Wyverns are a little bit reckless." The game describes for Wyverns, "Their appearance sends ripples of alarm through the borderlands of civilization." And "A wyvern can be tamed for use as a mount, but doing so presents a difficult and deadly challenge. Raising one as a hatchling offers the best results. However, a wyvern’s violent temperament has cost the life of many a would-be master."
Like I said in my other response. You don't bring a Horse into a Saloon. You definitely don't bring a Cougar. You are absolutely correct the Wyvern's venom should have been known instantaneously... Rather than have the "deadly challenge" of taming a Wyvern with a "violent temperament" in a crowded room with an animal handling check of "5" turn and directly claw/bite someone... I wanted to give him the opportunity to think and do something.
1/2 of the Group are lawyers, including myself. So when you talk about an "accident"... the lawyers and I at the table know thats not how that works. The Sorcerer was not only negligent, he was reckless. His reckless actions were both the direct and proximate result of the patrons death. So, whether you want to say its vicarious, strict, or some other form of liability... you calling it an "accident" doesn't really land... particularly in a group full of lawyers. Also, the venom was a mechanism for him to think over the course of 4 minutes about how he wanted to respond.... I could have just as easily said it bit at someone. He already made a check earlier in the streets and rolled an 8 so I described how a family was walking down the street with a small puppy, the family wasn't looking and the Wyvern swallowed it whole... they didn't get caught but it was yet another hint at maybe they should take a WYVERN to a stable while they are roaming through town.
I have had a talk with him out of session when giving it to him that if he chose to hatch the egg, it could grow to be a Wyvern (a CR6 Creature), but it would take a lot of effort training it, there were great risks involved, but if he was smart about it and put in the effort it could pay off into having an amazing flying mount. Bringing it straight from hell, with no training, into a crowded tavern was reckless. Yes the venom would have been instant, but I wanted to give him a few minutes to think and possibly salvage the situation rather than... Hey your Wyvern starts thrashing and biting 1/2 the tavern, roll for initiative.
I appreciate your opinion, I just disagree with some of it. Thank you
One of them brought his clearly deadly pet into a tavern, and it stung someone and they died because of it. The logical consequences:
The sailors in the bar are drinking. They just saw one of their mates die to a wyvern sting. At the very least, they'll want to kill the wyvern. If they are Chaotic, they'll also likely kill the owner, and if his friends get in the way, so be it. If they're Lawful, they'll want to apprehend them and hand the culprit over to the authorities for trial.
If they attack: run it as a fight. The players got themselves into it. Don't pander to "but they might die." If they die because they did something stupid, then they die. This has to exist in a game of D&D because if it doesn't, all the dice rolling is for nothing and you're giving them unreasonable outs.
If they seek to hand over to the authorities and the character surrenders, then you can either decide a "wergild" type payment for the sailor's life to his next of kin, or straight up hanging, or a jail term (the last being unlikely in a pre modern world).
However...
You kind of got them into this mess by deciding that a roll of 5 on an animal handling check results in the wyvern attacking someone by mistake. In a way that put the players into a pretty harsh situation, as it was never intended. If the wyvern was freaking out, why was anyone even close to it? Was there a way out of it for them?
The players made a dumb decision to bring the wyvern in with them, but I think you made a bad decision by making the result of one d20 roll the accidental murder of an innocent person. Like it or not, the death is moved from the DM's hands to the character's hands - it's directly their fault now. If you warned them "this wyvern may get spooked and attack" before they went in then that's on them, but if not then eesh, this was one bad roll to dictate a character's fate in too many ways.
Thank you, great input.
Yea it definitely was not a "Surprise Animal handling check!" moment. Brief summary:
Murdered innocent people in Elturel in the name of Tiamat while in hell to get the attention of Tiamat. Given the egg (he's into mounts)
Private out of session conversation explaining how deadly wyverns are, that they have venom the Rogue in the group may appreciate, but that it requires serious effort to tame (read him the stat block, particularly about taming)... he understood. I told him it would be wild that would need taming.
He's kept it scouting/flying above mostly so far while they fight demons/devils
They saved the town guard and I had him make an animal handling check when trying to convince them to let it into the City... combined with their favor with the captain... it was allowed in. However the group told him he should put it in a stable, he wanted to bring it through the streets.
He made an animal handling check, rolled an 8... I had it eat a dog but noone noticed... I reminded him how it is a very wild and deadly feral creature without taming and it would be very difficult to keep under control in a city as civilized as Neverwinter.
They arrived at the Beached Leviathan Tavern... I said, "You're leaving the Wyvern outside correct?" "Nope, bringing him in". I said, you're bringing a wolf sized wyvern with a deadly stinger into a crowded tavern?" "Yep <big smile from player, big sigh from group>"
To me, a 5 with a deadly wyvern on an animal check I felt was generous. A 1 I would have had it attack him. He has no problem with it either, he knew exactly what he's doing. He also had 4 minutes to simply leave, help the individual, or something. I asked him 4 times, "1 minute has passed, do you want to help him or at least let your teammates know what's happened?" "Nope, I stay silent."
I completely agree if I had just given him a "wyvern pet" without explaining how deadly they are, had him roll into a tavern, and say "Animal Handling Check!" resulting in a NPC death that would be on me.
Thank you for the insight, sorry if I didn't layout enough context. Wanted to get to the point in the original post.
He has made no attempt to train it, he just hatched it. He hasn't taken it to a stable, researched training, or in the slightest mentioned wanting to tame it...
Why doesn't it just attack and try to eat him? If he hasn't tried to train it... it should behave like an untrained lion.
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A longship captain is going to know when things are valuable, and a partially trained wyvern is one of those things. They will certainly aim to beat the party unconscious, hand them over to the guards and then take the wyvern to sell on, or as their own mascot. This could lead to either chasing them down to recover the wyvern (or to find out who they sold it to, depending on the timescale at play) or them thinking the wyvern is dead and encountering the captain later, now with a trained wyvern at his command (perhaps with some collar of servitude on it which could be broken to release it back to the sorcerer) which they will recognize as their wyvern, leading to conflict when they're more suited to it (IE have weapons and spell components).
He has made no attempt to train it, he just hatched it. He hasn't taken it to a stable, researched training, or in the slightest mentioned wanting to tame it...
Why doesn't it just attack and try to eat him? If he hasn't tried to train it... it should behave like an untrained lion.
He has fed it and sheltered it since it hatched, its mildly tame solely with him... I've haven't had him make animal handling checks all the time just for being with him for this purpose.
Entering into a city after having exclusively been in Avernus/the Wilds... that's why its become an issue. Which is why I let him know in advance it would be, but they enjoy doing crazy stuff.
5 of the 6 are evil characters. They enjoy chaotic situations. I enjoy their antics as do they, I love seeing what they do in crazy situations. The issue is knowing when it goes to an extreme to have reasonable consequences to avoid it being slapstick.
I'll add this above as well, but this topic is how would you respond in action/force with the NPCs in this situation.
Player and group were not taken off guard by actions/rolls. No-one is upset in the group, they figured this would happen. Like I said he may very well have a plan (he can still cast spells with verbal/somatic components). So there isn't any "fault" or anyone did anything "wrong"... this is what his Player has chosen to do and that's fine, and he knows its an extreme situation. He's not "wrong" for doing it, at least I don't view it that way. I do view it as reckless, but that's how he likes to run his player (can't do it in real life). So its not "on him" or "on the DM."
The point of the thread/question is just to get different perspectives on what other DM's do when Players take more extreme actions in lawful big cities? I really appreciate these responses and insight so I can see how different DMs would handle it.
The point of the thread/question is just to get different perspectives on what other DM's do when Players take more extreme actions in lawful big cities?
5 of the 6 are evil characters. They enjoy chaotic situations. I enjoy their antics as do they, I love seeing what they do in crazy situations.
These two statements are at odds. If you, and they, enjoy the crazy chaos, why try to enforce what other DMs, who may not enjoy that kind of crazy, would do in a lawful big city? Let the chaos reign, if that's what your group likes.
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I know you think it's harsh, but I'm agreeing with those on how you played the Wyvern sting as "subtle." If someone got "poked" by a Wyvern they're going to know. Potent venom doesn't work otherwise. Think bee sting, no think hornet sting, no, think MURDER HORNET sting and then multiply by Wyvern mass. That's the caliber wound that was inflicted and then neglected?
You put your players in an odd spot because of poor calculations. It may be bracing, but given your penchant for giving PCs exotic high powered monsters as companions, sort of a necessary wake up, on top of all this business with you allowing monster pets that seem to routinely get out of hand more than your liking (you're the DM, this can be addressed).
What I don't get is you required an animal handling check to grief the players, what check did you require to let the tavenkeep and patrons back down when they brought the Wyvern in in the first place? It seems this was more interventional for something that's griped you rather than something run consistently with how you've been running the game to date.
As far as managing the party, a group that wanders back and forth between Hell and Faerun is going to draw notice from people all over the continent keen on keeping tabs on interplanar traffic. That Sage in Candlekeep, Harpers on the Horizon Walker and Watcher paths, probably Zhenatarym, etc. If it turns out the parties misadventures in faerun are more marauding and less discrete those various factions may go from a monitoring to intervention posture pretty quick.
Question:
Party of 6 split, 3 players go to one of the rougher taverns in Neverwinter to arrange transport to the Sea of Moving Ice to the north. One player chooses to bring his pet young Wyvern into the bar (which of course freaks everyone out and everyone is demanding he leave). I ask him if he's sure, he says yes. I ask him to make an animal handling check to see if he can keep it in check in the crowded tavern. He rolls a 5. I tell him the Wyvern doesn't attack, it just freaks out a little and its tail just barely pokes one of the patrons who doesn't notice.... but the sorcerer notices and knows the patron has about 4 minutes before the poison kicks in... I ask him what does he want to do, does he want to help the man or tell his teammates? He says no, he wants to tell no-one. The group talks to the barkeep, finds their point of contact with a different pirate crew, and another Player is asking if he can speak with the point of contact outside. I'm telling them each step of the way its been 30 sec, 1 min, etc. The player never chooses to tell anyone. I tell them the patron falls over (still says nothing to anyone)... his friends roll a 3 on their investigation so they think he's just passed out drunk and start to check on him (still says nothing), right when the group is about to walk out they roll an 18 investigation and see their friend foaming at the mouth along with the wyvern wound. One of the crew screams "Murderer" and starts to run to get the town guard. The Monk grabs the guy and throws a punch... that's where we ended the session. They killed a crew member of a long ship with the entire crew and captain in the tavern. That's 40 people. The Players had to surrender their weapons, component pouches, and arcane focuses to the quartermaster when entering the city. (One player pulled a Gandalf and kept his Staff of the Python as a "walking stick").
They, as a side quest, are running Ch. 7 of Storm King's Thunder to travel to the Sea of Moving Ice to kill a frost Giant in the north and save two white dragons on behalf of Tiamat. They have 15 days to get up there and back... leaving them 3 spare days in case they get lost at sea or delayed, etc. Aside from treasure, the main hook on the quest is for the Sorcerer to accelerate the growth of his pet/mount.
*Another note, the Wyvern was offered as an egg to the Sorcerer. It required his blood and an incantation to hatch which tied their fates. I haven't decided if that means either simply his soul is pledged as collateral to the Wyvern's safety... or if his life and soul are tied to the Wyvern...
What would you do? They chose to bring a monster into a bar, it poisoned someone, they chose not to leave or help the person who has now died, and now have started a fight with the crew member going to get the guards. All 39 Bandit and 1 Mage Captain are going to stand up... what would you do as a DM? Here are some thoughts
*Edit: By the way I'm just asking for how you would plan/respond. The Players may of course have a plan I'm not aware of (eg. Sorcerer casts Thunder Step and the group enters a chase sequence to flee to the City of Luskan to the north... who knows).
** Player and group were not taken off guard by actions/rolls. No-one is upset in the group, they figured this would happen. Like I said he may very well have a plan (he can still cast spells with verbal/somatic components). So there isn't any "fault" or anyone did anything "wrong"... this is what his Player has chosen to do and that's fine, and he knows its an extreme situation. He's not "wrong" for doing it, at least I don't view it that way. I do view it as reckless, but that's how he likes to run his player (can't do it in real life). So its not "on him" or "on the DM." The point of the question is just to get different perspectives on what other DM's do when Players take more extreme actions in lawful big cities? I really appreciate these responses and insight so I can see how different DMs would handle the NPC's response (not handle the Player as no-one has done anything wrong).
Definitely kill the wyvern, call the city guard, and siege them inside of the tavern. Force them to surrender, or fight their way out and possibly die.
I think the first question you must ask is whether the bandit group trust authority enough to hand the party over. Obvious assumption is that being bandits, they tend to have a more vigilante approach to justice, but I don't want to discount any nuance of character you may have for this group.
If they want to mete out justice themselves, then make it clear they are getting set to administer a beating with intent of killing the wyvern at least, and probably the sorcerer too (regardless of any soul-link to the wyvern). Then let the players deal with that as they please. Let them do their own risk assessment and either fight, flee or try to show contrition and negotiate a settlement. Even if the the bandit captain backs down from killing the sorcerer, he will likely want the wyvern dead as part of any deal, and again you should let the party (presumably) try to talk him down from this position. I'd not go down the path of taking the sorcerer's tongue - that seems a bit arbitrary and doesn't fit the crime unless he ordered the wyvern's actions.
Similar kind of thing if they decide to turn them over to the authorities. Appropriate punishment would be imprisonment of the sorcerer for failing to control a dangerous animal, and putting down the wyvern (or if you're more soft-hearted, maybe put it in a zoo or circus, or whatever fits your game). I'd say this is the more difficult position for the party, since a lawful NPC is by nature less likely to stray from the prescribed solution. But you could certainly plant a corrupt officer/jailer. Or schedule out the execution a few days to give them a chance to spring the wyvern.
Whatever choice you make, I agree that this group is no longer interested in having the PCs as clients.
A longship captain is going to know when things are valuable, and a partially trained wyvern is one of those things. They will certainly aim to beat the party unconscious, hand them over to the guards and then take the wyvern to sell on, or as their own mascot. This could lead to either chasing them down to recover the wyvern (or to find out who they sold it to, depending on the timescale at play) or them thinking the wyvern is dead and encountering the captain later, now with a trained wyvern at his command (perhaps with some collar of servitude on it which could be broken to release it back to the sorcerer) which they will recognize as their wyvern, leading to conflict when they're more suited to it (IE have weapons and spell components).
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I like this. It's also another reason for them to not involve the authorities. Administer beating, steal wyvern (and anything else of obvious value they are carrying/wearing). Sorcerer faces consequences of actions, without a cliched PC prison break or a capricious looking PC death. Bandits aren't murderers, so they leave them bloodied, but stable, in an alley behind the tavern.
You can do one of the above suggestions.
But if I'm the DM, I'm stopping right here and having an OOC conversation with the table, in which I am going to explain that I prefer a high degree of verisimilitude in my worlds, and that a character bringing a wyvern into a bog-standard tavern breaks that verisimilitude. I'm explaining this is not a "gonzo" game or some sort of a cartoon version of D&D that I am running, and I am not willing to run a game in which the players are so willing to break immersion "just cuz." I'm going to further explain that if that is the kind of game they want to play, they will need to have someone else be the DM.
Now... do you still want to bring the wyvern into the tavern?
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Something to keep in mind... Scythian never said this crew of sailors were bandits, just that they're using the Bandit stat-block to represent each crew member. These appear to be law-abiding, albeit rough-and-tumble sailors who just witnessed their crewmate die in what is either dangerous negligence or a very subtle assassination.
I'm assuming they're also unarmed, if weapons are turned over right at the front gate, so it's basically a giant fistfight. I don't think these sailors would intend to kill the party, but instead restrain or knock them unconscious until the guard arrives... I'd say it takes 3 rounds of combat for the guy who dashed out the door to come back with a guard. So the party has 3 rounds to either escape, make a deal of some kind with the Captain, or, if they're incredibly skilled/lucky, defeat 40 guys and then take out a guard.
Whatever the case, I think that, if they're caught by the guard in any capacity, the party is arrested/fined, and the Wyvern is confiscated. I'd say plan for some kind of potential trial... give the players the opportunity to rescue the Wyvern... whether through negotiation, bribery, simply arguing their case in court, or a daring last-second rescue.
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One of them brought his clearly deadly pet into a tavern, and it stung someone and they died because of it. The logical consequences:
However...
You kind of got them into this mess by deciding that a roll of 5 on an animal handling check results in the wyvern attacking someone by mistake. In a way that put the players into a pretty harsh situation, as it was never intended. If the wyvern was freaking out, why was anyone even close to it? Was there a way out of it for them?
The players made a dumb decision to bring the wyvern in with them, but I think you made a bad decision by making the result of one d20 roll the accidental murder of an innocent person. Like it or not, the death is moved from the DM's hands to the character's hands - it's directly their fault now. If you warned them "this wyvern may get spooked and attack" before they went in then that's on them, but if not then eesh, this was one bad roll to dictate a character's fate in too many ways.
OK there's a lot that seems fishy to me on this on the DM's side.
So taking the wyvern into the tavern is reckless, sure. But a player isn't going to assume such bad outcomes.
Now wyverns are a little bit reckless in nature and they are difficult to tame, which is understandable. So yes, the call for an Animal Handling check is good. However, as Sanvael points out: a failure on the check resulting in the wyvern killing people is extreme. Firstly, it is animal handling then an "accidental brush" with the stinger shouldn't be the outcome because that has nothing to do with the player. Basically the wyvern accidentally brushing their stinger on somebody is the equivalent of a character accidentally stabbing people. Do you roll to see if your player characters accidentally punch/stab people? No. The stinger is an attack option. When not being used the stinger is curled up - there is no risk of an accidental stinging.
Furthermore, stinging is a deliberate action - and it requires such. It's not a poisoned talon or claw. It's a stinger. It's not oozing venom that kills on contact. It's a stinger - it needs to purposefully puncture the skin - this pushes on muscles that trigger the excretion of the venom. That's a "stinger".
So for this victim to not be aware a large stinger broke his skin and injected instantly painful venom is.... Weird. Especially considering the wyvern venom doesn't "poison" the target - it's a sudden burst of poison damage and then it's gone - there's no poisoned condition being inflicted.
So you made the judgement at that specific moment to have the wyvern be clumsy, and you changed how the wyvern sting works, how attack rolls work (since it seems no attack roll was made by the wyvern), and then you decided to roll multiple investigations by the other npcs until eventually one gets a success so you can have then cry "murder" - something that is very immersion breaking. If somebody in a bar who has been drinking passes out and they're breathing when you check them and don't find anything suspicious - you'd leave them for a fair while, quite possibly hours, before it's time to leave and you'd check them again.
You set this on the characters. You are to blame here, not the players.
What you should have done, is if they failed the animal handling, the wyvern might start doing things that would be disruptive - perhaps it spots a rat and goes to capture the newfound prey, perhaps it jumps onto a table scattering mugs and glasses startling patrons, or some such. Then you can have patrons start to take aggressive stances - which makes the wyvern nervous and defensive. At THAT point you could then make the player roll another animal handling check to calm the wyvern down. On success, the wyvern calms but still on edge and the charcter warned to keep it under control or leave. If fail then the wyvern might go to attack the aggressive patrons -- roll initiative. It's now a fight between wyvern and patrons that are being aggressive. The character/party might get a turn in advance of the wyvern's and if so they have a chance to grab it (contested grapple). If they do, consider the fight over and they are forced to leave the premises on threat of attack/guards/etc. If they fail and the wyvern manages to attack a patron - then a fight may break out and even if the party can subdue the wyvern from hurting others the guards may be called to arrest them. Go from there.
This was your screw up.
Now, OK, these happen. My suggestion to you would be to have a frank discussion with the party, much like BioWizard suggests, admit your fault, and ask if they would be inclined to roll back time to before they entered the place and once again ask if they want to enter with the wyvern - advising there will be checks and there remains a strong possibility that bringing a young untamed wyvern into a crowded place may result chaos.
I'm assuming untamed because it's young and the sorc is interested in aging it faster so it can be a mount. If, however, this was a tamed wyvern - then no animal handling check should have been called for at all.
You made the decision to give them a wyvern. You should not punish them for having one.
You mention some magic ritual bond with the wyvern. Maybe use that to say it's tamed without the years of training it takes - at least enough to not have to worry about derailing your own sessions.
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You are correct in that I'm just using a Bandit Stat Block... I could have used a Guard just as easily. Honestly I didn't start trying to figure out the details of the other crew until he said he was bringing the young Wyvern into the tavern... I didn't think he would do that. You don't bring a horse into a Saloon... you definitely don't bring a Cougar into a saloon. And its a major city... Neverwinter is the "Jewel of the North"... its not some outskirts mining town.
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They had entered through the NE side of Neverwinter, went through, exited the City walls again to the West to enter the docks. The docks don't necessarily have a quartermaster as the Tavern they went into was the "Beached Leviathan." I envision they are ship hands that may be smugglers secretly, but they don't make trouble with the local authorities to jeopardize their access to the Port. They are more than happy to take justice in their own hands if egged on, but up until a certain threshold they will respect the sovereignty of the Port/Neverwinter.
Wow, ok. So I appreciate your opinion, although a bit brash.
In our last campaign (I wasn't DM) he had a griffon that he used to break down townfolk door for purposes of group extortion. I told them when entering the City that this was not some off-trail town, it was one of the bigger Cities in Faerun. It has a strong police/military force and it is a law abiding down (as opposed to say Baldur's Gate). They understood, but they like to test limits too...which I'm cool with but it has to be grounded in some reality, not slapstick.
To be clear, a Wyvern is a dragon... its feral... he got it in Avernus (Hell) and they've been non-stop fighting demons and devils. He has made no attempt to train it, he just hatched it. He hasn't taken it to a stable, researched training, or in the slightest mentioned wanting to tame it... he enjoys its wild antics. They've dipped into the Material Plane as a side quest on behalf of a quest for Tiamat to quell the Frost Giant's pursuit of the Ring of Winter / Rescue two White Dragons (Players and I needed a break from the doom/gloom of Avernus). I have no problem giving my player a powerful item/pet if it comes with risk/responsibility. Respectfully, I disagree with "Wyverns are a little bit reckless." The game describes for Wyverns, "Their appearance sends ripples of alarm through the borderlands of civilization." And "A wyvern can be tamed for use as a mount, but doing so presents a difficult and deadly challenge. Raising one as a hatchling offers the best results. However, a wyvern’s violent temperament has cost the life of many a would-be master."
Like I said in my other response. You don't bring a Horse into a Saloon. You definitely don't bring a Cougar. You are absolutely correct the Wyvern's venom should have been known instantaneously... Rather than have the "deadly challenge" of taming a Wyvern with a "violent temperament" in a crowded room with an animal handling check of "5" turn and directly claw/bite someone... I wanted to give him the opportunity to think and do something.
1/2 of the Group are lawyers, including myself. So when you talk about an "accident"... the lawyers and I at the table know thats not how that works. The Sorcerer was not only negligent, he was reckless. His reckless actions were both the direct and proximate result of the patrons death. So, whether you want to say its vicarious, strict, or some other form of liability... you calling it an "accident" doesn't really land... particularly in a group full of lawyers. Also, the venom was a mechanism for him to think over the course of 4 minutes about how he wanted to respond.... I could have just as easily said it bit at someone. He already made a check earlier in the streets and rolled an 8 so I described how a family was walking down the street with a small puppy, the family wasn't looking and the Wyvern swallowed it whole... they didn't get caught but it was yet another hint at maybe they should take a WYVERN to a stable while they are roaming through town.
I have had a talk with him out of session when giving it to him that if he chose to hatch the egg, it could grow to be a Wyvern (a CR6 Creature), but it would take a lot of effort training it, there were great risks involved, but if he was smart about it and put in the effort it could pay off into having an amazing flying mount. Bringing it straight from hell, with no training, into a crowded tavern was reckless. Yes the venom would have been instant, but I wanted to give him a few minutes to think and possibly salvage the situation rather than... Hey your Wyvern starts thrashing and biting 1/2 the tavern, roll for initiative.
I appreciate your opinion, I just disagree with some of it. Thank you
Thank you, great input.
Yea it definitely was not a "Surprise Animal handling check!" moment. Brief summary:
I completely agree if I had just given him a "wyvern pet" without explaining how deadly they are, had him roll into a tavern, and say "Animal Handling Check!" resulting in a NPC death that would be on me.
Thank you for the insight, sorry if I didn't layout enough context. Wanted to get to the point in the original post.
Why doesn't it just attack and try to eat him? If he hasn't tried to train it... it should behave like an untrained lion.
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This is great, thank you!
He has fed it and sheltered it since it hatched, its mildly tame solely with him... I've haven't had him make animal handling checks all the time just for being with him for this purpose.
Entering into a city after having exclusively been in Avernus/the Wilds... that's why its become an issue. Which is why I let him know in advance it would be, but they enjoy doing crazy stuff.
5 of the 6 are evil characters. They enjoy chaotic situations. I enjoy their antics as do they, I love seeing what they do in crazy situations. The issue is knowing when it goes to an extreme to have reasonable consequences to avoid it being slapstick.
I'll add this above as well, but this topic is how would you respond in action/force with the NPCs in this situation.
Player and group were not taken off guard by actions/rolls. No-one is upset in the group, they figured this would happen. Like I said he may very well have a plan (he can still cast spells with verbal/somatic components). So there isn't any "fault" or anyone did anything "wrong"... this is what his Player has chosen to do and that's fine, and he knows its an extreme situation. He's not "wrong" for doing it, at least I don't view it that way. I do view it as reckless, but that's how he likes to run his player (can't do it in real life). So its not "on him" or "on the DM."
The point of the thread/question is just to get different perspectives on what other DM's do when Players take more extreme actions in lawful big cities? I really appreciate these responses and insight so I can see how different DMs would handle it.
These two statements are at odds. If you, and they, enjoy the crazy chaos, why try to enforce what other DMs, who may not enjoy that kind of crazy, would do in a lawful big city? Let the chaos reign, if that's what your group likes.
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The basic choices for the PCs are Fight, Negotiate, Run. Run has a pretty good chance of working but many players are not willing to use that option.
I know you think it's harsh, but I'm agreeing with those on how you played the Wyvern sting as "subtle." If someone got "poked" by a Wyvern they're going to know. Potent venom doesn't work otherwise. Think bee sting, no think hornet sting, no, think MURDER HORNET sting and then multiply by Wyvern mass. That's the caliber wound that was inflicted and then neglected?
You put your players in an odd spot because of poor calculations. It may be bracing, but given your penchant for giving PCs exotic high powered monsters as companions, sort of a necessary wake up, on top of all this business with you allowing monster pets that seem to routinely get out of hand more than your liking (you're the DM, this can be addressed).
What I don't get is you required an animal handling check to grief the players, what check did you require to let the tavenkeep and patrons back down when they brought the Wyvern in in the first place? It seems this was more interventional for something that's griped you rather than something run consistently with how you've been running the game to date.
As far as managing the party, a group that wanders back and forth between Hell and Faerun is going to draw notice from people all over the continent keen on keeping tabs on interplanar traffic. That Sage in Candlekeep, Harpers on the Horizon Walker and Watcher paths, probably Zhenatarym, etc. If it turns out the parties misadventures in faerun are more marauding and less discrete those various factions may go from a monitoring to intervention posture pretty quick.
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