I have a question about Tiamat and her "home plane". Currently (depending on what, if any, of the big campaigns you have played and how they ended) Tiamat is trapped in Avernus, the 1st layer of Hell. As I understand it, this is not her native plane, but she is trapped there by some powerful magic. I would assume, given her chaotic evil alignment, that her native plane is somewhere in the Abyss.
Now, in Rise of Tiamat, it is possible that cultists successfully manage to get her to escape her confinement and summon her to the Realms. There she is fought by some heroes and (hopefully!) has her mortal form destroyed. This is where I am confused, as when this happens the module (RoT) says that she returns to her confinement in Avernus.
Why is that? If the cultists released her from her imprisonment in Hell, should she not then be free to return to the Abyss if "killed" on the prime material plane?
If anyone can clear up this confusion for me, it would be really helpful.
I recall back in the old ad&d days that her plane was the nine hells. I'll grab my book and see.
EDIT: As far as I can see, Avernus has always been her home/plane... looking in the ad&d 1e monster manual, there's no mention of her in my old Moldvay/Cook books. Lore wise, I don't recall her actually being "imprisoned" in Avernus, rather just trapped there because she was destroyed on the material plane and "sent back to hell".
Interesting! Okay well that makes it easier I guess. I am pretty sure that Tiamat is trapped in Avernus at Asmodeus's command; though I don't know why or what the lore is on that one. I've not got the BG: Avernus module (though I have played it) - perhaps it's mentioned in there?
Background to my questions: I'm running OotA at the moment and also own Tyranny. I'm considering how to tie the summoning of Tiamat into the backstory of OotA (maybe making Tiamat in league with Lolth, maybe making them opponents, unsure). Exactly the big storyline which is going on in the background very much depends on Tiamat's end goal. Clearly getting into the Realms is one, but is she also trying to get back into the Abyss?
Going through this wiki, it seems that Tiamat originally hails from a realm called Zigguraxus, but at some point that realm essentially stopped existing, and Avernus became her home. There's also something about a place called the Dragon Eyrie, but the Dragon Eyrie was destroyed in the Spellplague, so while Tiamat isn't native to Avernus, her Native Realm has been destroyed over time, so Avernus is functionally her home plane now.
Tiamat’s home plane is actually the Dragon Eyrie, home of the draconic pantheon of gods, along with fiendish and celestial dragons, ashibi and other draconic creatures. The Dragon Eyrie was destroyed in the Spellplague though apparently, so I guess that means she has either no home plane to call her own except the Hells, which she’s already spent millenia in as a ‘prisoner’. She did also have her own territory in Zigguraxus as a member of the Untheric pantheon, but she never actually resided there herself because of her binding to Avernus. Zigguraxus ceased to exist in 1358 DR after the disbanding of the pantheon though, which would also mean her place there would have ceased to exist.
She had made a pact with Asmodeus long ago, swearing fealty. In official lore she was, for a time, ruler of Avernus, and helped forge Asmodeus’s ruby rod with her breath. This pact, of course is what binds her in Avernus, not necessarily physical chains but rather an unbreakable oath which she hates and regrets.
Her main duty was to A) hold back the demons, and B) prevent uprisings of rebellious and scheming devils on the layer.
Tiamat was terrible at her job, being a creature of pure destruction incarnate, not an effective strategist or spy. Asmodeus could see she was still highly loyal however, so he only demoted her to become the gatekeeper and guard to the lower layers of the Hells, a role she embraced. Think of Cerberus from Greek mythology, that’s her, but a billion times grander and deadlier, with her own mountainous castle of glittering treasure hoards and an army to command.
Though Tiamat was loyal, she discovered Asmodeus had instructed Bel, who was her successor, to keep a close eye to on Tiamat, to ensure she doesn’t try to overthrow Asmodeus, and to slay the queen at any hint of treason. This sparked rage against Asmodeus but couldn’t easily leave the Hells even if she wanted to since her soul is essentially bound to the plane now. But she began researching and scheming workarounds, and believes if her battle avatar (the Tiamat in RoT) could escape to the Prime Material Plane via summoning, she might be able to find a way to free her true form from the shackles of the Nine Hells.
Tiamat had three manifestations in Avernus. Her battle avatar (which was created using the divine essence taken from the death of her old enemy, the dragon god Azharul), her gatekeeper avatar which guarded the gates to Dis and carried out other duties, and her true godly form which mostly remains safe and sheltered in her lair (which is probably more powerful than the statblock in RoT and DiA)
Sometimes I miss the old way TSR would just leave you hanging in that aspect to allow the DM to take the reins. From my 2nd edition book (FOR1), here is the sum of what is known about her:
Tiamat the chromatic dragon is similar in nature to Bahamut nobody knows for sure whether she is a natural creature, the queen of evil dragons, a demon, or a deity of some kind. She too is reputed to have been in existence from the first moment that dragon kind emerged on Toril.
Sometimes I miss the old way TSR would just leave you hanging in that aspect to allow the DM to take the reins. From my 2nd edition book (FOR1), here is the sum of what is known about her:
Tiamat the chromatic dragon is similar in nature to Bahamut nobody knows for sure whether she is a natural creature, the queen of evil dragons, a demon, or a deity of some kind. She too is reputed to have been in existence from the first moment that dragon kind emerged on Toril.
I take DnD lore with a huge pinch of salt and either adopt it or re write it all based on my campaign.
For instance in one world I actually had it that Gith was actually a manifestation of Tiamat, Tiamat saw the potential of controlling a freed slave race of warriors and so manifested a part of herself into the being called Gith, became a great leader of the Gith species and then left, leaving a myth and ensuring that the Githyanki and Dragons would be forever tied together.
When Gith traveled to the 9 hells to “parley” with Tiamat Tiamat simply reabsorbed her gaining all the knowledge Gith had learnt of the Astral Plane. The whole campaign was based around the players learning this and then trying to use it to prevent a Gith effort to help Tiamat free herself froM Avernus.
From what I remember, Tiamat was lawful evil in the first editions, so it would make sense that his native plan is Baator...
Certainly, but the lawfulness was probably more out of forceful obligation to serve Asmodeus than actually being lawful herself
According to Mordenkainens tomb of foes she is in Avernus not because of some deal with Asmodeus but because of something that happened at the end of the war between giants and dragons. It is suggested she was cursed or some great spell placed upon her which ended the Great War and banished her to the 9 hells. Her domain is described as a mountain that demons and devils avoid.
Given that two of the chromatic dragon types are lawful evil, I'm sort of surprised Tiamat isn't neutral evil. It is certainly strange that she's CE in 5e, she was E in 4e (which didn't use the 9 way alignments) and LE in prior editions.
Tiamat’s alignment has always been rather strange. I understand why CE was chosen as of current, she is meant to be the opposite of Bahamut who is LG. They are meant to be the two extreme of Dragon-kind. In that regard CE makes sense.
However, she has always come across as NE in her actions. She isn’t a mindless monster who just loves carnage and creating discord. She is smart and cunning, and has shown to be able to honor pacts and agreements so long as she isn’t crossed. She can come up with elaborate and wide reaching plans and can be very patient when need be. As mentioned in some of the D&D, she actually did serve Asmodeus loyalty even if she wasn’t the best official ruler of Avernus. I recall that when Asmodeus tried to reinstate her she actually declined the offer and gave him her advice on who would make a better ruler of the first layer of Hell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
For me, Tiamat is a sometimes smart sometimes dumb "force of nature. To hearken to a another thread she is sort 5e's Godzilla, at least in my game. I prefer her backstory being something of a mess as far as mortal accounts go, because that's sort of the point, much like in actual mythologies, the backstories and legends of gods and titans aren't always consistent. So she's been tasked with duties in Hell, or she's chained in Hell, etc. Does "the straight" story really matter, or is it more important to be mindful of the implications of all the twists and turns where humanoids just lose the plot? It's like the story of the blind bats, or was it blind snakes, all biting into an elephant and each one coming to different conclusions based on where it bit.
As far as the alignment, a being like Tiamat, being affixed or assigned or fallen or placed or maybe just "present" on Avernus to me says that at least on that layer of the Hells, the imperfections of the "order" of Asmoedeus are put on display. I mean Avernus itself being a failed plane/level in the first place (it was supposed to be a tempting paradise, maybe the Wandering Emporium being a vestige of that time) before it became a battlescape where being likes Tiamat have their ... usefulness. Zariel if you think about it, is what in organizational theory one would call an "upstart", so Avernus is sort of where Hell's denizens get to let their freak flag fly high. I play Avernus as a war zone filled with the incongruities of highly orchestrated violence pit against a force whose logic is more viral and primal than reasoned, and in that colliseum or collision there is cascade upon cascade of displaced beings, etc. In "thinking about combat" from boxing gyms to closed quarter battle schools to war colleges there's an adage sometimes attributed to Mike Tyson, "Everybody's got a plan until you're punched in the face." Avernus is both the plan and your face, and Tiamat's Mike Tyson (and I totally now know the voice inflection I'm going to use for Tiamat's avatar).
Of course being multi headed you could simply apply each chromatic dragons alignment to each head :)
True, like there is no consensus to Tiamat's story, or maybe as a consequence to that, it might not be the case that Tiamat even has consensus within herself, though Chaotic Evil would likely have the least integrity, so to speak.
Well, officially when Tiamat speaks the voices come from all mouths simultaneously, but that's certainly a fun idea and can't argue with changing to that
Right, she's been described as unified chorus of sorts, but given the different personality profiles ascribed to the different chromatic dragons, a vocalized internal debate is possible. If you don't want to belabor that with a sound collage you could look at the Quintessons (five faces with five distinct voices) seen in varying renditions of the Transformers cartoons and comics as a model for how that could work/be performed. Sometimes they are pretty integrated but the Earthrise arc of War for Cybertron portrayed one whose five personalities were at war with itself (though that situation resolved itself too quickly probably because the series was a short order of episodes and on a tight schedule).
I'm actually liking this "divided Tiamat" (more likely to occur on matters she's ambivalent about, like most PC interactions). And doing something where I take different trains of thought and use either colored cards or die in hand as a prop to indicate which head is speaking.
Hello all,
I have a question about Tiamat and her "home plane". Currently (depending on what, if any, of the big campaigns you have played and how they ended) Tiamat is trapped in Avernus, the 1st layer of Hell. As I understand it, this is not her native plane, but she is trapped there by some powerful magic. I would assume, given her chaotic evil alignment, that her native plane is somewhere in the Abyss.
Now, in Rise of Tiamat, it is possible that cultists successfully manage to get her to escape her confinement and summon her to the Realms. There she is fought by some heroes and (hopefully!) has her mortal form destroyed. This is where I am confused, as when this happens the module (RoT) says that she returns to her confinement in Avernus.
Why is that? If the cultists released her from her imprisonment in Hell, should she not then be free to return to the Abyss if "killed" on the prime material plane?
If anyone can clear up this confusion for me, it would be really helpful.
Thanks
Blakey
My Author Page: www.peterjblake.com
Novels Published: Reynard's Fate, Kita's Honour, Okoth's War and Callindrill
I recall back in the old ad&d days that her plane was the nine hells.
I'll grab my book and see.
EDIT: As far as I can see, Avernus has always been her home/plane... looking in the ad&d 1e monster manual, there's no mention of her in my old Moldvay/Cook books.
Lore wise, I don't recall her actually being "imprisoned" in Avernus, rather just trapped there because she was destroyed on the material plane and "sent back to hell".
...cryptographic randomness!
Interesting! Okay well that makes it easier I guess. I am pretty sure that Tiamat is trapped in Avernus at Asmodeus's command; though I don't know why or what the lore is on that one. I've not got the BG: Avernus module (though I have played it) - perhaps it's mentioned in there?
Background to my questions: I'm running OotA at the moment and also own Tyranny. I'm considering how to tie the summoning of Tiamat into the backstory of OotA (maybe making Tiamat in league with Lolth, maybe making them opponents, unsure). Exactly the big storyline which is going on in the background very much depends on Tiamat's end goal. Clearly getting into the Realms is one, but is she also trying to get back into the Abyss?
My Author Page: www.peterjblake.com
Novels Published: Reynard's Fate, Kita's Honour, Okoth's War and Callindrill
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Tiamat
Going through this wiki, it seems that Tiamat originally hails from a realm called Zigguraxus, but at some point that realm essentially stopped existing, and Avernus became her home. There's also something about a place called the Dragon Eyrie, but the Dragon Eyrie was destroyed in the Spellplague, so while Tiamat isn't native to Avernus, her Native Realm has been destroyed over time, so Avernus is functionally her home plane now.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Tiamat’s home plane is actually the Dragon Eyrie, home of the draconic pantheon of gods, along with fiendish and celestial dragons, ashibi and other draconic creatures. The Dragon Eyrie was destroyed in the Spellplague though apparently, so I guess that means she has either no home plane to call her own except the Hells, which she’s already spent millenia in as a ‘prisoner’. She did also have her own territory in Zigguraxus as a member of the Untheric pantheon, but she never actually resided there herself because of her binding to Avernus. Zigguraxus ceased to exist in 1358 DR after the disbanding of the pantheon though, which would also mean her place there would have ceased to exist.
She had made a pact with Asmodeus long ago, swearing fealty. In official lore she was, for a time, ruler of Avernus, and helped forge Asmodeus’s ruby rod with her breath. This pact, of course is what binds her in Avernus, not necessarily physical chains but rather an unbreakable oath which she hates and regrets.
Her main duty was to A) hold back the demons, and B) prevent uprisings of rebellious and scheming devils on the layer.
Tiamat was terrible at her job, being a creature of pure destruction incarnate, not an effective strategist or spy. Asmodeus could see she was still highly loyal however, so he only demoted her to become the gatekeeper and guard to the lower layers of the Hells, a role she embraced. Think of Cerberus from Greek mythology, that’s her, but a billion times grander and deadlier, with her own mountainous castle of glittering treasure hoards and an army to command.
Though Tiamat was loyal, she discovered Asmodeus had instructed Bel, who was her successor, to keep a close eye to on Tiamat, to ensure she doesn’t try to overthrow Asmodeus, and to slay the queen at any hint of treason. This sparked rage against Asmodeus but couldn’t easily leave the Hells even if she wanted to since her soul is essentially bound to the plane now. But she began researching and scheming workarounds, and believes if her battle avatar (the Tiamat in RoT) could escape to the Prime Material Plane via summoning, she might be able to find a way to free her true form from the shackles of the Nine Hells.
Tiamat had three manifestations in Avernus. Her battle avatar (which was created using the divine essence taken from the death of her old enemy, the dragon god Azharul), her gatekeeper avatar which guarded the gates to Dis and carried out other duties, and her true godly form which mostly remains safe and sheltered in her lair (which is probably more powerful than the statblock in RoT and DiA)
This video covers lore of Tiamat really well, and I can’t recommend it enough: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lRDa39nARHo&ved=2ahUKEwieguSKlO_vAhVBfXAKHSF1Am0Qo7QBMAB6BAgCEAE&usg=AOvVaw2GVxR4RTi3co7MQ0_Pbx34
I hope this was helpful! 😃
Wow, Wizards(tm) really did a job on her history.
Sometimes I miss the old way TSR would just leave you hanging in that aspect to allow the DM to take the reins.
From my 2nd edition book (FOR1), here is the sum of what is known about her:
...cryptographic randomness!
I take DnD lore with a huge pinch of salt and either adopt it or re write it all based on my campaign.
For instance in one world I actually had it that Gith was actually a manifestation of Tiamat, Tiamat saw the potential of controlling a freed slave race of warriors and so manifested a part of herself into the being called Gith, became a great leader of the Gith species and then left, leaving a myth and ensuring that the Githyanki and Dragons would be forever tied together.
When Gith traveled to the 9 hells to “parley” with Tiamat Tiamat simply reabsorbed her gaining all the knowledge Gith had learnt of the Astral Plane. The whole campaign was based around the players learning this and then trying to use it to prevent a Gith effort to help Tiamat free herself froM Avernus.
From what I remember, Tiamat was lawful evil in the first editions, so it would make sense that his native plan is Baator...
My favourites creations :
Half-Cloaker, Cloaker Lord, Potion of the Cloaker
I am looking for advice to upgrade my campaign.
There are troglodytes in my living room and cloakers in my basement.
Certainly, but the lawfulness was probably more out of forceful obligation to serve Asmodeus than actually being lawful herself
According to Mordenkainens tomb of foes she is in Avernus not because of some deal with Asmodeus but because of something that happened at the end of the war between giants and dragons. It is suggested she was cursed or some great spell placed upon her which ended the Great War and banished her to the 9 hells. Her domain is described as a mountain that demons and devils avoid.
Given that two of the chromatic dragon types are lawful evil, I'm sort of surprised Tiamat isn't neutral evil. It is certainly strange that she's CE in 5e, she was E in 4e (which didn't use the 9 way alignments) and LE in prior editions.
She is placed as the exact opposite of Bahamat who Is Lawfull good, but I would say WOTC is only a guide anyway, make her what works for you.
Tiamat’s alignment has always been rather strange. I understand why CE was chosen as of current, she is meant to be the opposite of Bahamut who is LG. They are meant to be the two extreme of Dragon-kind. In that regard CE makes sense.
However, she has always come across as NE in her actions. She isn’t a mindless monster who just loves carnage and creating discord. She is smart and cunning, and has shown to be able to honor pacts and agreements so long as she isn’t crossed. She can come up with elaborate and wide reaching plans and can be very patient when need be. As mentioned in some of the D&D, she actually did serve Asmodeus loyalty even if she wasn’t the best official ruler of Avernus. I recall that when Asmodeus tried to reinstate her she actually declined the offer and gave him her advice on who would make a better ruler of the first layer of Hell.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
Alignment is pretty irrelevant anyway, but it doesn't make any sense that an inhabitant of Baator would be Chaotic.
For me, Tiamat is a sometimes smart sometimes dumb "force of nature. To hearken to a another thread she is sort 5e's Godzilla, at least in my game. I prefer her backstory being something of a mess as far as mortal accounts go, because that's sort of the point, much like in actual mythologies, the backstories and legends of gods and titans aren't always consistent. So she's been tasked with duties in Hell, or she's chained in Hell, etc. Does "the straight" story really matter, or is it more important to be mindful of the implications of all the twists and turns where humanoids just lose the plot? It's like the story of the blind bats, or was it blind snakes, all biting into an elephant and each one coming to different conclusions based on where it bit.
As far as the alignment, a being like Tiamat, being affixed or assigned or fallen or placed or maybe just "present" on Avernus to me says that at least on that layer of the Hells, the imperfections of the "order" of Asmoedeus are put on display. I mean Avernus itself being a failed plane/level in the first place (it was supposed to be a tempting paradise, maybe the Wandering Emporium being a vestige of that time) before it became a battlescape where being likes Tiamat have their ... usefulness. Zariel if you think about it, is what in organizational theory one would call an "upstart", so Avernus is sort of where Hell's denizens get to let their freak flag fly high. I play Avernus as a war zone filled with the incongruities of highly orchestrated violence pit against a force whose logic is more viral and primal than reasoned, and in that colliseum or collision there is cascade upon cascade of displaced beings, etc. In "thinking about combat" from boxing gyms to closed quarter battle schools to war colleges there's an adage sometimes attributed to Mike Tyson, "Everybody's got a plan until you're punched in the face." Avernus is both the plan and your face, and Tiamat's Mike Tyson (and I totally now know the voice inflection I'm going to use for Tiamat's avatar).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Of course being multi headed you could simply apply each chromatic dragons alignment to each head :)
True, like there is no consensus to Tiamat's story, or maybe as a consequence to that, it might not be the case that Tiamat even has consensus within herself, though Chaotic Evil would likely have the least integrity, so to speak.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Having five different personalities is pretty chaotic.
Well, officially when Tiamat speaks the voices come from all mouths simultaneously, but that's certainly a fun idea and can't argue with changing to that
Right, she's been described as unified chorus of sorts, but given the different personality profiles ascribed to the different chromatic dragons, a vocalized internal debate is possible. If you don't want to belabor that with a sound collage you could look at the Quintessons (five faces with five distinct voices) seen in varying renditions of the Transformers cartoons and comics as a model for how that could work/be performed. Sometimes they are pretty integrated but the Earthrise arc of War for Cybertron portrayed one whose five personalities were at war with itself (though that situation resolved itself too quickly probably because the series was a short order of episodes and on a tight schedule).
I'm actually liking this "divided Tiamat" (more likely to occur on matters she's ambivalent about, like most PC interactions). And doing something where I take different trains of thought and use either colored cards or die in hand as a prop to indicate which head is speaking.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.