Can anyone explain how a creature with the following attack is balanced for level 1 PCs (5 PCs would meet three of them):
Sting. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. If the poison damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, the target is stable but poisoned for 1 hour, even after regaining hit points, and is paralyzed while poisoned in this way.
(The creatures were AC 12 with 13 HP each.)
I ran this encounter yesterday with 2 of them vs 4 PCs and it was almost a complete wipe-out.
I'm guessing the creatures got the initiative, and started within move & attack distance? A party with ranged attacks, who gets one turn of shooting them first, could probably kill one as they approached and then finish the other off when it gets closer.
My best guess is that they would be underpowered if they are increased by a CR, and that they consider the fact that the most damaging aspect of the creature is non-lethal means it is less dangerous.
It's probably a good one to put in a level 1 parties way, just to remind them that the world can and will kill them if they get cocky.
That actually doesn't seem anywhere near too hard, especially if it's meant to be a Deadly encounter. The average Level 1 PC hits them over half the time and does about half their hit points damage, so it should only take a couple rounds to kill them. They'll hit weaker AC PCs about half the time and stronger ones around a third of the time, and their poison will fail over half the time. So sure, a few bad dice rolls could make this go sideways, but that's the fun of low-level D&D. As I see it, this encounter is fairly balanced, and very much in favor of the players. Heck, as far as I'm concerned, you could throw in a third creature and still make a case for it being balanced...this just doesn't seem too bad.
Edit: compare them to a Skeleton: they have very similar stats. 4 Skeletons are a Deadly encounter for 4 PCs. These creatures have the poison but lack ranged attacks, leaving them in the same challenge ballpark as Skeletons, if a little higher in practice. Therefore, you could debatably run as many as 4 of them. (I'd run 3, since that poison could be really swingy as you saw.) But what you see as WotC being crazy hard, I see as pulling punches.
This definitely feels a bit like a tutorial monster. As in, it teaches the players about poison damage and the importance of fighting intelligently instead of just rushing headlong into danger. The big indicator is that they're designed to be non-lethal if their deadliest effect takes hold, so the party can comfortably lose against them and still get back up after an hour. I think if they didn't have that caveat in their design it would be a complete nonsense monster to send against a level 1 party, but for what I see it almost seems like one of those boss fights in RPGs where it's possible to win, but the game still largely assumes you're going to lose.
What monsters were those? They sound like Giant Wolf Spiders but with +1 to hit, +1 to damage, and +1d6 poison damage. Are they something CR 1/2? If so, that was a Deadly encounter, and those can go badly at low levels if the dice go poorly.
What monsters were those? They sound like Giant Wolf Spiders but with +1 to hit, +1 to damage, and +1d6 poison damage. Are they something CR 1/2? If so, that was a Deadly encounter, and those can go badly at low levels if the dice go poorly.
2 CR 1/2 monsters is far from a Deadly encounter for 4 level 1 characters. 100 XP x 1.5 for numbers is only 150 XP, which is between Easy and Medium. 4 of them (200 x 2 for numbers = 400 XP) would be Deadly, and is probably what I'd run.
Can anyone explain how a creature with the following attack is balanced for level 1 PCs (5 PCs would meet three of them):
Sting. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d6 + 2) piercing damage, and the target must make a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 10 (3d6) poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. If the poison damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, the target is stable but poisoned for 1 hour, even after regaining hit points, and is paralyzed while poisoned in this way.
(The creatures were AC 12 with 13 HP each.)
I ran this encounter yesterday with 2 of them vs 4 PCs and it was almost a complete wipe-out.
Because at 1st level harsh language can kill a char (if the DM rolls a 20).
Seriously, say a Wizard has 7 HP or any char that rolls a D6 and has a 12 Con. One good hit WILL end bring them to 0 HP. A Crit on a D8 can easily reduce them to -7 HP, and they are dead dead. That is simply the game mechanics.
Level 1 is very swingy because the PCs don't have many hit points. Depending on how optimized the characters are (AC, ranged vs melee, primary stat 14, 16, 18), whether the PCs gain initiative, whether there is surprise, and several other factors, the combat can vary from trivial to a TPK.
The sample creature you list has one attack, +4 to hit for 5.5 average damage and an additional con save 11 for 10.5 on average (1/2 on save).
Many melee characters will have an AC of 17 or 18 to start with (chain mail + shield =18, scale mail +2 dex + shield = 18). These will be hit on 14+ or about 35% of the time. Most characters have a constitution modifier of +1 to +3 (often +2) so the con save requires a roll of 9 for half damage (5). This is still a total of 10.5 damage on a successful hit which will knock out many first level characters - but there was only 1/3 chance of hitting and if the character was a fighter then they are proficient with con saves and would start with 12ish hit points. On the other hand, a wizard or rogue could well be on the ground due to lower AC and lack of proficiency in con saves.
Anyway, I'd probably run this with just two against a party of 5 with a reinforcement available for round 2 or 3 (or even at the end of round 1) depending on how easy or hard the fight appears to be going. If the monsters get lucky (party unlucky) there is every possibility that they could knock out three characters in the first round. However, the poison appears to be designed to allow the creatures to store live prey for later consumption. If a level 1 party TPKed to these creatures I would likely have them start to waken with 1 hit point a few hours later - perhaps restrained - in some sort of larder with other "less fresh" food. The creatures are perhaps eating down the supplies but haven't gotten to the PCs yet. This could add some excitement and give them a chance to escape.
P.S. Crits are the bane of first level characters since they are outside of the DMs control (especially if you are rolling openly) and will often take a character down to zero. What's more, some creatures like an orc could potentially instantly kill a character by taking them to negative max hit points with a crit.
What monsters were those? They sound like Giant Wolf Spiders but with +1 to hit, +1 to damage, and +1d6 poison damage. Are they something CR 1/2? If so, that was a Deadly encounter, and those can go badly at low levels if the dice go poorly.
2 CR 1/2 monsters is far from a Deadly encounter for 4 level 1 characters. 100 XP x 1.5 for numbers is only 150 XP, which is between Easy and Medium. 4 of them (200 x 2 for numbers = 400 XP) would be Deadly, and is probably what I'd run.
2 CR 1/2 monsters is 300 xp (100 xp * 2 monsters * 1.5), which is Hard, but for some reason I was reading it as 3 vs 5. Not sure why.
In any case, this is mostly about those being very swingy monsters, not super strong. I would say the median result is probably that they die in two rounds while dropping one PC, but that's mostly because of low hit chance and high damage.
The fact the venom stabilises a character upon reaching 0hp, seems to suggest that if they do TPK, there's always the option to awaken later and attempt to escape.
I've never played the modules myself, but I know the Shambling Mound from Curse of Strahd, the Kobold's from Hoard of the Dragon Queen and the Bandit's from Descent to Avernus are also regarded as notoriously hard challenges for level 1's.
The bugbear and co. from LMOP and the resistant-to-first-attack-taken-skeletons from Ghost's of Saltmarsh are also fairly difficult challenges for level 1's.
I'm not sure why this appears to be the case, I do find it incredible some level 1 encounters involve having to fight creatures that can down a barbarian in a non-crit hit (First attack of the game in my Storm King's Thunder campaign did this, the barbarian didn't even dump con)
What monsters were those? They sound like Giant Wolf Spiders but with +1 to hit, +1 to damage, and +1d6 poison damage. Are they something CR 1/2? If so, that was a Deadly encounter, and those can go badly at low levels if the dice go poorly.
These are the Greed Motes from the Adventurer's League DDAL05-01. The party almost wiped because the party consisted of a fight, a rogue, a bow ranger, and a wizard.
One Mote got top initiative and got into melee with the rogue (who was scouting ahead).
The published encounter had these motes with a fly speed of 30 ft, and the floor of the large cave being iced over and therefore difficult terrain. This just made the PCs unable to out-maneouvre the motes.
A later mission will have the level 1 characters up against Magmins, which explode upon death. That encounter occurs in a smoke filled room where visibility is set to a maximum of 10 feet!
(I just wonder how many characters died while DDAL05-01 was being running in AL games.)
Can anyone explain how a creature with the following attack is balanced for level 1 PCs (5 PCs would meet three of them):
(The creatures were AC 12 with 13 HP each.)
I ran this encounter yesterday with 2 of them vs 4 PCs and it was almost a complete wipe-out.
I'm guessing the creatures got the initiative, and started within move & attack distance? A party with ranged attacks, who gets one turn of shooting them first, could probably kill one as they approached and then finish the other off when it gets closer.
My best guess is that they would be underpowered if they are increased by a CR, and that they consider the fact that the most damaging aspect of the creature is non-lethal means it is less dangerous.
It's probably a good one to put in a level 1 parties way, just to remind them that the world can and will kill them if they get cocky.
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That actually doesn't seem anywhere near too hard, especially if it's meant to be a Deadly encounter. The average Level 1 PC hits them over half the time and does about half their hit points damage, so it should only take a couple rounds to kill them. They'll hit weaker AC PCs about half the time and stronger ones around a third of the time, and their poison will fail over half the time. So sure, a few bad dice rolls could make this go sideways, but that's the fun of low-level D&D. As I see it, this encounter is fairly balanced, and very much in favor of the players. Heck, as far as I'm concerned, you could throw in a third creature and still make a case for it being balanced...this just doesn't seem too bad.
Edit: compare them to a Skeleton: they have very similar stats. 4 Skeletons are a Deadly encounter for 4 PCs. These creatures have the poison but lack ranged attacks, leaving them in the same challenge ballpark as Skeletons, if a little higher in practice. Therefore, you could debatably run as many as 4 of them. (I'd run 3, since that poison could be really swingy as you saw.) But what you see as WotC being crazy hard, I see as pulling punches.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
This definitely feels a bit like a tutorial monster. As in, it teaches the players about poison damage and the importance of fighting intelligently instead of just rushing headlong into danger. The big indicator is that they're designed to be non-lethal if their deadliest effect takes hold, so the party can comfortably lose against them and still get back up after an hour. I think if they didn't have that caveat in their design it would be a complete nonsense monster to send against a level 1 party, but for what I see it almost seems like one of those boss fights in RPGs where it's possible to win, but the game still largely assumes you're going to lose.
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What monsters were those? They sound like Giant Wolf Spiders but with +1 to hit, +1 to damage, and +1d6 poison damage. Are they something CR 1/2? If so, that was a Deadly encounter, and those can go badly at low levels if the dice go poorly.
2 CR 1/2 monsters is far from a Deadly encounter for 4 level 1 characters. 100 XP x 1.5 for numbers is only 150 XP, which is between Easy and Medium. 4 of them (200 x 2 for numbers = 400 XP) would be Deadly, and is probably what I'd run.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Because at 1st level harsh language can kill a char (if the DM rolls a 20).
Seriously, say a Wizard has 7 HP or any char that rolls a D6 and has a 12 Con. One good hit WILL end bring them to 0 HP. A Crit on a D8 can easily reduce them to -7 HP, and they are dead dead. That is simply the game mechanics.
Level 1 is very swingy because the PCs don't have many hit points. Depending on how optimized the characters are (AC, ranged vs melee, primary stat 14, 16, 18), whether the PCs gain initiative, whether there is surprise, and several other factors, the combat can vary from trivial to a TPK.
The sample creature you list has one attack, +4 to hit for 5.5 average damage and an additional con save 11 for 10.5 on average (1/2 on save).
Many melee characters will have an AC of 17 or 18 to start with (chain mail + shield =18, scale mail +2 dex + shield = 18). These will be hit on 14+ or about 35% of the time. Most characters have a constitution modifier of +1 to +3 (often +2) so the con save requires a roll of 9 for half damage (5). This is still a total of 10.5 damage on a successful hit which will knock out many first level characters - but there was only 1/3 chance of hitting and if the character was a fighter then they are proficient with con saves and would start with 12ish hit points. On the other hand, a wizard or rogue could well be on the ground due to lower AC and lack of proficiency in con saves.
Anyway, I'd probably run this with just two against a party of 5 with a reinforcement available for round 2 or 3 (or even at the end of round 1) depending on how easy or hard the fight appears to be going. If the monsters get lucky (party unlucky) there is every possibility that they could knock out three characters in the first round. However, the poison appears to be designed to allow the creatures to store live prey for later consumption. If a level 1 party TPKed to these creatures I would likely have them start to waken with 1 hit point a few hours later - perhaps restrained - in some sort of larder with other "less fresh" food. The creatures are perhaps eating down the supplies but haven't gotten to the PCs yet. This could add some excitement and give them a chance to escape.
P.S. Crits are the bane of first level characters since they are outside of the DMs control (especially if you are rolling openly) and will often take a character down to zero. What's more, some creatures like an orc could potentially instantly kill a character by taking them to negative max hit points with a crit.
2 CR 1/2 monsters is 300 xp (100 xp * 2 monsters * 1.5), which is Hard, but for some reason I was reading it as 3 vs 5. Not sure why.
In any case, this is mostly about those being very swingy monsters, not super strong. I would say the median result is probably that they die in two rounds while dropping one PC, but that's mostly because of low hit chance and high damage.
The fact the venom stabilises a character upon reaching 0hp, seems to suggest that if they do TPK, there's always the option to awaken later and attempt to escape.
I've never played the modules myself, but I know the Shambling Mound from Curse of Strahd, the Kobold's from Hoard of the Dragon Queen and the Bandit's from Descent to Avernus are also regarded as notoriously hard challenges for level 1's.
The bugbear and co. from LMOP and the resistant-to-first-attack-taken-skeletons from Ghost's of Saltmarsh are also fairly difficult challenges for level 1's.
I'm not sure why this appears to be the case, I do find it incredible some level 1 encounters involve having to fight creatures that can down a barbarian in a non-crit hit (First attack of the game in my Storm King's Thunder campaign did this, the barbarian didn't even dump con)
These are the Greed Motes from the Adventurer's League DDAL05-01. The party almost wiped because the party consisted of a fight, a rogue, a bow ranger, and a wizard.
One Mote got top initiative and got into melee with the rogue (who was scouting ahead).
The published encounter had these motes with a fly speed of 30 ft, and the floor of the large cave being iced over and therefore difficult terrain. This just made the PCs unable to out-maneouvre the motes.
A later mission will have the level 1 characters up against Magmins, which explode upon death. That encounter occurs in a smoke filled room where visibility is set to a maximum of 10 feet!
(I just wonder how many characters died while DDAL05-01 was being running in AL games.)