In my games I often run into the problem of players asking what level an enemy is casting a spell (especially when it comes to counter spell). Is there a way to tell what level someone is casting a spell? or are you only able to tell that they are casting a spell?
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
You can tell them whatever you want. I absolutely would not tell them what level spell an enemy is casting though. They have no reason to know this, and that information removes all the risk from things like counterspell.
In my games I often run into the problem of players asking what level an enemy is casting a spell (especially when it comes to counter spell). Is there a way to tell what level someone is casting a spell? or are you only able to tell that they are casting a spell?
RAW identifying a spell as it's cast costs you your reaction (making it impossible to counterspell); see xgte. A generous DM might allow contingent counterspelling (only counterspell if you identify the spell and its something you care about).
I don't know about RAW/RAI but this is what I would do:
If the caster has that spell themself, they'd know the base level but not the level the person is casting it at in the moment. If they're not a caster (or not one with access to that spell) they would have no idea or way to know anything about that spell if they haven't been on the receiving end of its powers before. (i.e. an arcane caster isn't going to know the level of something like a paladin's smite spell but a fellow paladin would know the base level but not the level they're casting it at).
If they don't know the spell personally, they won't know what spell is being cast.
My thought to cut down on the amount of times players ask what the spell level is would be to say they don't even know what spell is being cast because the caster is performing the verbal elements in their native tongue. (My assumption being that the language of magic could potentially vary by nation/community or even just arcane v. deific/natural). And because RAW states that the somatic components aren't the same caster to caster they can't rely on the physical action the user is making to cast the spell to identify the spell. Then you get the bonus of giving your caster a focus that replaces most material components and you can make it really feel like there's drama around whether that counterspell is going to work.
In my games I often run into the problem of players asking what level an enemy is casting a spell (especially when it comes to counter spell). Is there a way to tell what level someone is casting a spell? or are you only able to tell that they are casting a spell?
I never tell my players what level of a spell an enemy is casting. There is no way with a reaction to cast counterspell to know what level that enemy is casting. There is no time. It's a reaction. They have to choose what level. I don't even tell them what is being casted until it's over.
I simply say on the enemy turn that the players hear the enemy chanting and moving their hands or pulling out a material.
They don't know what spell is being cast or what level. I do ask my players if they want to try to counterspell it. If they want to. Then I ask what level they are using and have them roll dice if it's higher then what they cast counterspell at. If they succeed I still never tell them what the spell was. Just that whatever was being cast had failed. If they fall the counterspell then I tell what's going on.
In my games I often run into the problem of players asking what level an enemy is casting a spell (especially when it comes to counter spell). Is there a way to tell what level someone is casting a spell? or are you only able to tell that they are casting a spell?
You could use Xanathar's rule of burn the reaction to know the spell/level. Or the Adventure League rule of everyone knows. This is a little gamey but counterspell does burn resources. If I was going to homebrew, being nice the spell would have to be on your spell list before you could counterspell and you would have make DC INT save for the enemy casters DC to id the up cast level. So Automatic counterspell to fireball if at third level. DC x if the caster is up casting.
In my games I often run into the problem of players asking what level an enemy is casting a spell (especially when it comes to counter spell). Is there a way to tell what level someone is casting a spell? or are you only able to tell that they are casting a spell?
You could use Xanathar's rule of burn the reaction to know the spell/level. Or the Adventure League rule of everyone knows. This is a little gamey but counterspell does burn resources. If I was going to homebrew, being nice the spell would have to be on your spell list before you could counterspell and you would have make DC INT save for the enemy casters DC to id the up cast level. So Automatic counterspell to fireball if at third level. DC x if the caster is up casting.
Since AL usually plays as close to RAW as possible, in all the AL games I have played, you don't know what spell is being cast or the level if it could affect the player or DM decisions. As far as I know there is no "Adventure League rule of everyone knows". Decisions on the use of counterspell and what level to cast it at are made without additional information.
Some DMs may decide to play by telling everyone what spell is being cast but that is an individual DM decision and not something related to AL rules as far as I know.
Personally, if there is the possibility of counterspell by either the PCs or opposing NPCs, I will only make a statement that an NPC is casting a spell and similarly ask players to initially just say that they are casting a spell so that the decision to counterspell can be made without additional information. Since D&D is fundamentally a game of trust, I trust myself and the players to not cheat and change the spell they were casting (if that becomes an issue, I would just have folks write it down).
Nothing in the players guide for season 9 mention using Chapter 2 DMG tools from Xanathar's Guide. Season 9 DM guide only mention PHB,DMG, and MM Season 10v2 players guide mention Xanathar's Guild as a +1 for race, class, and background. There is no Season 10 DM guide.
In our game we have agreed that as part of the XGE reaction that can be used to identify the spell, you can also tell if someone is "upcasting" it if you exceed the required roll by 2. So for example, if you need a 17 to ID the spell and roll (with your bonuses) a 19, then as a DM, I would let the player know the spell is being "upcast." Our decision is based on the idea that upcasting should have some sort of visual or other sign -- shouting the verbal components louder and with more emphasis... making wilder more emphatic somatic gestures... using a little extra of the spell components... that kind of thing. You'd still have to make a check to notice this in the heat of battle (you might not even be able to hear the guy at all among the hue and cry of combat), but if you succeed at the check, by enough, you can tell it is being upcast. But not the exact level. So you know that level 3 spell is being cast at a 4-9, but not which level in that range.
As a house rule, I also allow the player who has made the ID as a reaction, to cast counterspell as part of the reaction. (I guess that makes me "generous" by Pantagruel's definition -- thanks for the compliment, P! ;)
As a house rule, I also allow the player who has made the ID as a reaction, to cast counterspell as part of the reaction. (I guess that makes me "generous" by Pantagruel's definition -- thanks for the compliment, P! ;)
You're letting them do more than what the written rule permits, so yes, that's being 'generous'. I think the written rule is somewhat dumb so I'd probably be generous too.
It was a compromise between "I want to be able to know all spells before they are cast," and "you can't know any spells before they land."
As I think you pointed out in an earlier thread, the ID reaction still burns the reaction, so I can still lure out his reaction (and he can lure the monsters') with a decoy spell, and then cast the "real" one with it unable to be countered. I like that tactical give and take, so I didn't want to lose that by saying "you can counter spells after they're known" without any rolls or other reactions.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
You could use Xanathar's rule of burn the reaction to know the spell/level. Or the Adventure League rule of everyone knows. This is a little gamey but counterspell does burn resources. If I was going to homebrew, being nice the spell would have to be on your spell list before you could counterspell and you would have make DC INT save for the enemy casters DC to id the up cast level. So Automatic counterspell to fireball if at third level. DC x if the caster is up casting.
I am rereading that rule and I don't see any reason to think the intention or the written rule is to tell you the level a spell was cast at--only what the spell is. The level of the casting determines the DC in order to succeed, but to me, that falls more into the realm of out-of-game mechanics than in-world information.
If casting the spell at a higher level causes it to behave differently in a noticeable way (magic missile at higher level produces more missiles) then I can see where a clever mage might be able to infer the level of the casting from the effect. Simply upcasting a spell that does more damage does not seem to fit what the feature is intended to do--at least to my eyes.
So there are rules, can’t remember where, that allow an Arcana check to identify the spell being cast. But I would never tell them the level the spell is actually being cast at. Part of the skill and the tension of this aspect of magic is in the players trying to balance spell slots available for offense? With trying to be defensive. Do I use my level 9 slot to dispel this finger of death automatically, or do I save it for that attack I want to cast.
In my games I often run into the problem of players asking what level an enemy is casting a spell (especially when it comes to counter spell). Is there a way to tell what level someone is casting a spell? or are you only able to tell that they are casting a spell?
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
You can tell them whatever you want. I absolutely would not tell them what level spell an enemy is casting though. They have no reason to know this, and that information removes all the risk from things like counterspell.
RAW identifying a spell as it's cast costs you your reaction (making it impossible to counterspell); see xgte. A generous DM might allow contingent counterspelling (only counterspell if you identify the spell and its something you care about).
I don't know about RAW/RAI but this is what I would do:
If the caster has that spell themself, they'd know the base level but not the level the person is casting it at in the moment. If they're not a caster (or not one with access to that spell) they would have no idea or way to know anything about that spell if they haven't been on the receiving end of its powers before. (i.e. an arcane caster isn't going to know the level of something like a paladin's smite spell but a fellow paladin would know the base level but not the level they're casting it at).
If they don't know the spell personally, they won't know what spell is being cast.
My thought to cut down on the amount of times players ask what the spell level is would be to say they don't even know what spell is being cast because the caster is performing the verbal elements in their native tongue. (My assumption being that the language of magic could potentially vary by nation/community or even just arcane v. deific/natural). And because RAW states that the somatic components aren't the same caster to caster they can't rely on the physical action the user is making to cast the spell to identify the spell. Then you get the bonus of giving your caster a focus that replaces most material components and you can make it really feel like there's drama around whether that counterspell is going to work.
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I never tell my players what level of a spell an enemy is casting. There is no way with a reaction to cast counterspell to know what level that enemy is casting. There is no time. It's a reaction. They have to choose what level. I don't even tell them what is being casted until it's over.
I simply say on the enemy turn that the players hear the enemy chanting and moving their hands or pulling out a material.
They don't know what spell is being cast or what level. I do ask my players if they want to try to counterspell it. If they want to. Then I ask what level they are using and have them roll dice if it's higher then what they cast counterspell at. If they succeed I still never tell them what the spell was. Just that whatever was being cast had failed. If they fall the counterspell then I tell what's going on.
You could use Xanathar's rule of burn the reaction to know the spell/level. Or the Adventure League rule of everyone knows. This is a little gamey but counterspell does burn resources. If I was going to homebrew, being nice the spell would have to be on your spell list before you could counterspell and you would have make DC INT save for the enemy casters DC to id the up cast level. So Automatic counterspell to fireball if at third level. DC x if the caster is up casting.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Since AL usually plays as close to RAW as possible, in all the AL games I have played, you don't know what spell is being cast or the level if it could affect the player or DM decisions. As far as I know there is no "Adventure League rule of everyone knows". Decisions on the use of counterspell and what level to cast it at are made without additional information.
Some DMs may decide to play by telling everyone what spell is being cast but that is an individual DM decision and not something related to AL rules as far as I know.
Personally, if there is the possibility of counterspell by either the PCs or opposing NPCs, I will only make a statement that an NPC is casting a spell and similarly ask players to initially just say that they are casting a spell so that the decision to counterspell can be made without additional information. Since D&D is fundamentally a game of trust, I trust myself and the players to not cheat and change the spell they were casting (if that becomes an issue, I would just have folks write it down).
Nothing in the players guide for season 9 mention using Chapter 2 DMG tools from Xanathar's Guide. Season 9 DM guide only mention PHB,DMG, and MM Season 10v2 players guide mention Xanathar's Guild as a +1 for race, class, and background. There is no Season 10 DM guide.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
In our game we have agreed that as part of the XGE reaction that can be used to identify the spell, you can also tell if someone is "upcasting" it if you exceed the required roll by 2. So for example, if you need a 17 to ID the spell and roll (with your bonuses) a 19, then as a DM, I would let the player know the spell is being "upcast." Our decision is based on the idea that upcasting should have some sort of visual or other sign -- shouting the verbal components louder and with more emphasis... making wilder more emphatic somatic gestures... using a little extra of the spell components... that kind of thing. You'd still have to make a check to notice this in the heat of battle (you might not even be able to hear the guy at all among the hue and cry of combat), but if you succeed at the check, by enough, you can tell it is being upcast. But not the exact level. So you know that level 3 spell is being cast at a 4-9, but not which level in that range.
As a house rule, I also allow the player who has made the ID as a reaction, to cast counterspell as part of the reaction. (I guess that makes me "generous" by Pantagruel's definition -- thanks for the compliment, P! ;)
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
You're letting them do more than what the written rule permits, so yes, that's being 'generous'. I think the written rule is somewhat dumb so I'd probably be generous too.
It was a compromise between "I want to be able to know all spells before they are cast," and "you can't know any spells before they land."
As I think you pointed out in an earlier thread, the ID reaction still burns the reaction, so I can still lure out his reaction (and he can lure the monsters') with a decoy spell, and then cast the "real" one with it unable to be countered. I like that tactical give and take, so I didn't want to lose that by saying "you can counter spells after they're known" without any rolls or other reactions.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I am rereading that rule and I don't see any reason to think the intention or the written rule is to tell you the level a spell was cast at--only what the spell is. The level of the casting determines the DC in order to succeed, but to me, that falls more into the realm of out-of-game mechanics than in-world information.
If casting the spell at a higher level causes it to behave differently in a noticeable way (magic missile at higher level produces more missiles) then I can see where a clever mage might be able to infer the level of the casting from the effect. Simply upcasting a spell that does more damage does not seem to fit what the feature is intended to do--at least to my eyes.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
So there are rules, can’t remember where, that allow an Arcana check to identify the spell being cast. But I would never tell them the level the spell is actually being cast at. Part of the skill and the tension of this aspect of magic is in the players trying to balance spell slots available for offense? With trying to be defensive. Do I use my level 9 slot to dispel this finger of death automatically, or do I save it for that attack I want to cast.
The rule is in Xantathar's Guide.
Personally I require a Religion check if it is a Divine spell and an Arcana check if it is Arcane, but I pretty clearly delineate these in my world.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.