it would only be to see a person's true form, not secret doors or writing, not different planes.
So it's more like the Warlock invocation "Witch Sight"...
You can see the true form of any shapechanger or creature concealed by illusion or transmutation magic while the creature is within 30 feet of you and within line of sight.
That has a prerequisite of being a 15th level Warlock. Still imbalanced. At least with the spell it has the limitation of spell slots. This "always-on" invocation has no such limitation.
You state it as "players" have the gift. So it's not just the one Grimm, but a team of them. Would anyone else have this ability? So someone could call out the PCs if THEY shapechanged (alter self, polymorph, etc)?
At it's core, while a really cool concept, it would invalidate shapechangers as a challenge. That means huge plot points can be hand waved away.
Town slowly being replaced by shapechanging fiends? You can instantly see who is real and who is fake.
A blutbad, I mean werewolf, posing as a merchant, in need of a few guards for their caravan? Not falling for that.
That rat munching on garbage in the alley? Nailed it, it's a wererat stalking the party waiting for them to pass by.
I wasn't going to do the who team had to be Grimm some could be 'vesen'. And if you remember in the show, Grimm's did not always see them unless they used their form in-front of them. A sneaky player NPC may not openly reveal their form. The Vesen could chose for "normal" people to either see them or not. A also nod that even if the Grimms can see them, just like in the show, everyone may not know of Grimm's & Vesen. Therefore, the local people, soldiers, lords, what have you may be completely oblivious to the truth.
As stated, as is, I believe it to be imbalanced and gimmicky.
So you have one or two players that can sometimes see shapeshifters in their natural state, but only if the "wesen"* slips up (A moment of extreme stress or excitement) or shapeshift/woge normally, in which everyone can see the truth.
The same could be accomplished without adding in any extra perks. Just have shapechangers slip their concentration for a moment so that players with really high perception skill notice something amiss. If you give the players the "perk" of seeing wesen, they may feel cheated when they come across a shapechanger but didn't slip up to show their face. But if you keep everything natural, then players can feel accomplished because they saw something no one else did.
Hopefully that makes sense.
* It's "wesen", not "vesen". In the German language, were the names come from, the letter "W" sounds like a "V".
Thanks, I wasn't planning on starting this anytime soon. As you stated there should be perks earned, and rules more defined on who & how they say what they did. Just like I would not everyone to be a 'grimm' but some be wesen. Still working out how I might be able to balance everything out without taking away from those 'certain spells'. As I work on this idea & iron things out i will post an update with what I have come up with.
I feel like this is something which could work from a narrative point of view rather than a pure addition to dnd.
So, as opposed to playing normal dnd and then adding the ability to see through shapechanging abilities, which as others have pointed out is usually a powerful spell, you build the world around the premise instead.
So, all monsters are disguised. They might be disguised as people, or scenery, or animals, but for whatever reason, the average person cannot see the monster. Monsters appear dead from time to time, at which point the illusion is lost, but most people assume that they are reclusive and nocturnal, and don't feel concerned. The reality is that they are everywhere and most people can't see them.
Enter the players, a group of people who can see through the illusion. Monsters with their own illusion abilities still work the same way, as they can deceive even them.
The idea being that this presents a greater roleplaying issue for the players - where they have to convince the NPC's of the presence of monsters in order to be hired to get rid of them for them! The mechanics of the game remain the same, except simply that most NPC's cannot see monsters.
I feel like this is something which could work from a narrative point of view rather than a pure addition to dnd.
So, all monsters are disguised. They might be disguised as people, or scenery, or animals, but for whatever reason, the average person cannot see the monster. ...
The idea being that this presents a greater roleplaying issue for the players - where they have to convince the NPC's of the presence of monsters in order to be hired to get rid of them for them! The mechanics of the game remain the same, except simply that most NPC's cannot see monsters.
I can get behind this a little more. it should definitely just be a roleplay thing and not adding any new mechanics for reasons I pointed out above and others.
But it would be very odd to say "all monsters are disguised." That would mean Orcs can be disguised as humans.. but then how do you explain half-orcs? Or lizardfolk? Goblins and kobolds?
Firbolg's have an innate Disguise Self ability, so it would not be fair/balanced to give it to all the other "monstrous" races.
I would say that certain monsters have that ability. And if one is too similar to a playable race (say, the Aarakocra are too close to Scharfblicke) then they would not be available as a playable race. You already have all the were-creatures (bat, bear, wolf, raven, rat, etc), so you just need to diversify a little more to make it unique to your campaign. Take a few more beasts and apply lycanthropy condition to them; were-ferret anyone? Then pick some fey and some fiends and give them a special version of Polymorph Self so they normally appear human on this plane.
Now you have a rogues gallery of Wesen. Slowly introduce the concept of these creatures existing in normal society. I would recommend not using one of the default were-creatures so it's still a mystery. If their first chance encounter is with a wolf they will automatically jump to werewolf, but if their first exposure is with an owl or a monkey woge, then they cannot be sure of what they saw. Make sense?
And as pointed out, normal illusion spells and abilities still work normally and the characters cannot see through them. The perception is strictly for for those creatures you classify as Wesen, and only if using their natural ability. A werebear using an Alter Self spell would be undetectable without external magical means.
I can get behind this a little more. it should definitely just be a roleplay thing and not adding any new mechanics for reasons I pointed out above and others.
But it would be very odd to say "all monsters are disguised." That would mean Orcs can be disguised as humans.. but then how do you explain half-orcs? Or lizardfolk? Goblins and kobolds?
Firbolg's have an innate Disguise Self ability, so it would not be fair/balanced to give it to all the other "monstrous" races.
I would say that certain monsters have that ability. And if one is too similar to a playable race (say, the Aarakocra are too close to Scharfblicke) then they would not be available as a playable race. You already have all the were-creatures (bat, bear, wolf, raven, rat, etc), so you just need to diversify a little more to make it unique to your campaign. Take a few more beasts and apply lycanthropy condition to them; were-ferret anyone? Then pick some fey and some fiends and give them a special version of Polymorph Self so they normally appear human on this plane.
Now you have a rogues gallery of Wesen. Slowly introduce the concept of these creatures existing in normal society. I would recommend not using one of the default were-creatures so it's still a mystery. If their first chance encounter is with a wolf they will automatically jump to werewolf, but if their first exposure is with an owl or a monkey woge, then they cannot be sure of what they saw. Make sense?
And as pointed out, normal illusion spells and abilities still work normally and the characters cannot see through them. The perception is strictly for for those creatures you classify as Wesen, and only if using their natural ability. A werebear using an Alter Self spell would be undetectable without external magical means.
That's just how I'd play it.
I would consider the sort of world this would be applied to would be one in which monsters are considered myths, so they need to be rare. People should be thinking that there aren't any. To my mind, this lends itself to a post-industrialisation world, where the people all think that monsters are long gone. I'd make humans the dominant race of the world, in ignorant disbelief of other races.
I would then make secret societies / civilisations of the non-human races, disguised as humans to human eyes, and make them highly secretive due to an evil inquisition who have tried to wipe out everyone not human to further the human cause in controlling the world. You know, normal human stuff.
Then, the party can either be humans with "the sight" or non-humans who are intent on keeping the monsters secret to preserve their secrecy and not draw the attention of the inquisition. The inquisition would be the big bad, saving people from monsters without revealing the secret societies would be the challenges, whether to save humans or not would be the moral conundrums, and so on.
Perhaps the inquisition have somethign which is what prevents the humans from seeing the monsters? Perhaps they need to use this to control the humans - there's no wonder out there, no magic, get back to your desks/mines/whatever. Perhaps the decision is whether to free the humans from this curse - will they attack the non-humans, as everyone thinks they will, or will they be happy to have been freed - is ignorance really bliss?
I definitely don't think it would work perfectly for a "normal" dnd setting. I might even start writing this out, it sounds really quite fun...
It could be an item instead of a character ability. Like a gem they can look through that grants them true sight, but only 3 charges/day. Then they can still see the things, but they need to be careful about when they use it.
Also then, anyone can use it. You don’t want there to be only one person in the party with the ability, and they die.
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I was thinking about giving the players the sight of a Grimm, like the TV show, to see shape-changers "vesen" & fiends. Thoughts?
Soooo... The True Seeing spell?
Seeing as how that's a 6th level spell and you're giving it away for free... I would say imbalanced.
it would only be to see a person's true form, not secret doors or writing, not different planes.
So it's more like the Warlock invocation "Witch Sight"...
That has a prerequisite of being a 15th level Warlock. Still imbalanced. At least with the spell it has the limitation of spell slots. This "always-on" invocation has no such limitation.
You state it as "players" have the gift. So it's not just the one Grimm, but a team of them. Would anyone else have this ability? So someone could call out the PCs if THEY shapechanged (alter self, polymorph, etc)?
At it's core, while a really cool concept, it would invalidate shapechangers as a challenge. That means huge plot points can be hand waved away.
I wasn't going to do the who team had to be Grimm some could be 'vesen'. And if you remember in the show, Grimm's did not always see them unless they used their form in-front of them. A sneaky player NPC may not openly reveal their form. The Vesen could chose for "normal" people to either see them or not. A also nod that even if the Grimms can see them, just like in the show, everyone may not know of Grimm's & Vesen. Therefore, the local people, soldiers, lords, what have you may be completely oblivious to the truth.
As stated, as is, I believe it to be imbalanced and gimmicky.
So you have one or two players that can sometimes see shapeshifters in their natural state, but only if the "wesen"* slips up (A moment of extreme stress or excitement) or shapeshift/woge normally, in which everyone can see the truth.
The same could be accomplished without adding in any extra perks. Just have shapechangers slip their concentration for a moment so that players with really high perception skill notice something amiss. If you give the players the "perk" of seeing wesen, they may feel cheated when they come across a shapechanger but didn't slip up to show their face. But if you keep everything natural, then players can feel accomplished because they saw something no one else did.
Hopefully that makes sense.
* It's "wesen", not "vesen". In the German language, were the names come from, the letter "W" sounds like a "V".
Thanks, I wasn't planning on starting this anytime soon. As you stated there should be perks earned, and rules more defined on who & how they say what they did. Just like I would not everyone to be a 'grimm' but some be wesen. Still working out how I might be able to balance everything out without taking away from those 'certain spells'. As I work on this idea & iron things out i will post an update with what I have come up with.
IMO D&D is not the right game system for this type of project.
I am curious. Did you work something out for this idea
Sorry I have been playing alot of deadfire sonce or group is on hold due to covid. We was going tonwork on it together.
I feel like this is something which could work from a narrative point of view rather than a pure addition to dnd.
So, as opposed to playing normal dnd and then adding the ability to see through shapechanging abilities, which as others have pointed out is usually a powerful spell, you build the world around the premise instead.
So, all monsters are disguised. They might be disguised as people, or scenery, or animals, but for whatever reason, the average person cannot see the monster. Monsters appear dead from time to time, at which point the illusion is lost, but most people assume that they are reclusive and nocturnal, and don't feel concerned. The reality is that they are everywhere and most people can't see them.
Enter the players, a group of people who can see through the illusion. Monsters with their own illusion abilities still work the same way, as they can deceive even them.
The idea being that this presents a greater roleplaying issue for the players - where they have to convince the NPC's of the presence of monsters in order to be hired to get rid of them for them! The mechanics of the game remain the same, except simply that most NPC's cannot see monsters.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
I can get behind this a little more. it should definitely just be a roleplay thing and not adding any new mechanics for reasons I pointed out above and others.
But it would be very odd to say "all monsters are disguised." That would mean Orcs can be disguised as humans.. but then how do you explain half-orcs? Or lizardfolk? Goblins and kobolds?
Firbolg's have an innate Disguise Self ability, so it would not be fair/balanced to give it to all the other "monstrous" races.
I would say that certain monsters have that ability. And if one is too similar to a playable race (say, the Aarakocra are too close to Scharfblicke) then they would not be available as a playable race. You already have all the were-creatures (bat, bear, wolf, raven, rat, etc), so you just need to diversify a little more to make it unique to your campaign. Take a few more beasts and apply lycanthropy condition to them; were-ferret anyone? Then pick some fey and some fiends and give them a special version of Polymorph Self so they normally appear human on this plane.
Now you have a rogues gallery of Wesen. Slowly introduce the concept of these creatures existing in normal society. I would recommend not using one of the default were-creatures so it's still a mystery. If their first chance encounter is with a wolf they will automatically jump to werewolf, but if their first exposure is with an owl or a monkey woge, then they cannot be sure of what they saw. Make sense?
And as pointed out, normal illusion spells and abilities still work normally and the characters cannot see through them. The perception is strictly for for those creatures you classify as Wesen, and only if using their natural ability. A werebear using an Alter Self spell would be undetectable without external magical means.
That's just how I'd play it.
I would consider the sort of world this would be applied to would be one in which monsters are considered myths, so they need to be rare. People should be thinking that there aren't any. To my mind, this lends itself to a post-industrialisation world, where the people all think that monsters are long gone. I'd make humans the dominant race of the world, in ignorant disbelief of other races.
I would then make secret societies / civilisations of the non-human races, disguised as humans to human eyes, and make them highly secretive due to an evil inquisition who have tried to wipe out everyone not human to further the human cause in controlling the world. You know, normal human stuff.
Then, the party can either be humans with "the sight" or non-humans who are intent on keeping the monsters secret to preserve their secrecy and not draw the attention of the inquisition. The inquisition would be the big bad, saving people from monsters without revealing the secret societies would be the challenges, whether to save humans or not would be the moral conundrums, and so on.
Perhaps the inquisition have somethign which is what prevents the humans from seeing the monsters? Perhaps they need to use this to control the humans - there's no wonder out there, no magic, get back to your desks/mines/whatever. Perhaps the decision is whether to free the humans from this curse - will they attack the non-humans, as everyone thinks they will, or will they be happy to have been freed - is ignorance really bliss?
I definitely don't think it would work perfectly for a "normal" dnd setting. I might even start writing this out, it sounds really quite fun...
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
It could be an item instead of a character ability. Like a gem they can look through that grants them true sight, but only 3 charges/day. Then they can still see the things, but they need to be careful about when they use it.
Also then, anyone can use it. You don’t want there to be only one person in the party with the ability, and they die.