I have a player in my new campaign who has been cursed by her family and their patron deity after losing a family/religious relic. The family is all about charity and lawfulness and the deity is one of family and protection, so they have tasked her with completing a number of good deeds/filling a book with good deeds to have the curse broken within a year.
The one theme I want to press with this character and the story is that 'family does not mean blood and comes in all forms' (aka her party).
Currently, the character is going around asking shop keepers and the like if she can help them, only because her family and her patron have told her to do 'go forth and help others'. So this isn't really what they want her to do.
I'm trying to figure out a table or point system of sorts so I can keep track of her 'brownie points' with the deity.
Does anyone have any ideas on how I can apply numerical value to things like taking a job because you want money versus a job because you actually want to help, helping someone just because you were told to, etc?
Traditionally one of the elements of a good deed that makes it worthwhile is sacrifice. That is, although giving someone $10 for food is a nice thing to do for anyone, it's a much bigger "good deed" if it's your only $10, rather than if you have a couple mil to your name and you won't miss the $10 or even $10,000. So I would suggest that the points should depend at least partly on how much of a sacrifice the cursed PC has had to make. Giving 10% of her earnings to charity should be worth more than giving 5%, and less than giving 15%, that kind of thing. Doing something that costs the PC something emotionally or personally, should be worth points. As an example, there is a scene the Star Trek TNG episode "Measure of a Man" after the trial is over. Riker, Data's friend, was asked to prosecute the case that Data was not a living being with rights under Federation law. Although Riker didn't want to do that, as the next-ranking officer on the starbase at the time, he was required to prosecute data and he had to do a good job, or Data would be ruled against. Riker did a good job, and almost won the case. Later, the crew is celebrating Data's freedom, and Riker is not part of the group. When Data asks him why, he says he doesn't think he deserves it. Data points out that he would have been summarily convicted without Riker's prosecution and -- this is the important part -- that Data recognized that doing the prosecution cost Riker something, emotionally. It was painful for Riker to do it.
That's charity -- doing something that costs you something, to help someone else. So it seems to me that you need to weigh both how much good was done, and how much it cost the PC to do it. So if saving lives is worth 10 points, saving lives by laying down or risking your own should be worth 20 points, etc.
I'm not sure how you are going to exactly put points onto moral dilemmas, though. That sounds like a really tall task.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
That's charity -- doing something that costs you something, to help someone else. So it seems to me that you need to weigh both how much good was done, and how much it cost the PC to do it. So if saving lives is worth 10 points, saving lives by laying down or risking your own should be worth 20 points, etc.
You could check out/adapt the piety system in the theros book. It gives suggestions for which acts will make which gods happy. And conversely, which acts might make someone lose points. It also has a system of bonuses you get for accumulating a certain number of points, if you want to give the character some positive reinforcement along the way,.
I think you've created a problematic game conceit.
Firstly, I have an issue with this:
I have a player in my new campaign who has been cursed by her family and their patron deity after losing a family/religious relic. The family is all about charity and lawfulness and the deity is one of family and protection, so they have tasked her with completing a number of good deeds/filling a book with good deeds to have the curse broken within a year.
So the deity and family are about charity and lawfulness but a family member gets a significant curse for losing something?
Secondly you've then made the objective of it something completely nebulous and there's no way for the character to know what to do. You've redefined 'family' to mean 'anyone you care about,' and not made it clear what needs doing.
When you bestow a curse or such, you need to be specific about what the curse is broken by, and the player needs to know. It's no wonder the player is doing random stuff for shopkeepers. The problem appears to be that YOU don't know how to solve the curse. You know what doesn't solve the curse, but not what does.
I suggest that something like this needs to be broken by something major in the storyline. A noble act of self sacrifice sounds good, but honestly how much should you have to sacrifice for losing a relic? Maybe she should have to get the relic back. That's for you to decide. But make sure your player knows exactly what they can do. A point system isn't going to be much fun if the storyline is resolved by the player giving someone a Potion of Healing, or buying them a meal.
I think you've created a problematic game conceit.
Firstly, I have an issue with this:
I have a player in my new campaign who has been cursed by her family and their patron deity after losing a family/religious relic. The family is all about charity and lawfulness and the deity is one of family and protection, so they have tasked her with completing a number of good deeds/filling a book with good deeds to have the curse broken within a year.
When you bestow a curse or such, you need to be specific about what the curse is broken by, and the player needs to know. It's no wonder the player is doing random stuff for shopkeepers. The problem appears to be that YOU don't know how to solve the curse. You know what doesn't solve the curse, but not what does.
I appreciate the POV. I do just want to clarify that the entirety of the premise of the curse (reason for it and how to break it) were all brought to me by the player themselves. I’m just trying to figure out a good way to make it work instead of just being like “good job you killed some bandits, curse broken”, and just in case they are never able to find the stolen item I want to give them another chance in a less direct way.
BioWizard and Sanvael are right, a point system probably isn't going to give you or the player a satisfying conclusion to the story. "Hey buddy, here's a sandwich." "Oh, you were at 999 points and now you're at 1000, curse broken."
Of course, that doesn't mean the player has to know that. Maybe the book and list of good deeds are just a ruse, or a misunderstanding, to help nudge the character in the right direction and build good habits. It just shouldn't be the solution.
You need to figure out a big moment that will result in the curse breaking. It doesn't even have to be the culmination of a specific quest or anything like that -- just decide what kind of emotional payoff you want, and build around that. If the character is a rogue, maybe they have to stop skulking in the shadows and sneak attacking and step in the way of a charging dragon to try and save another party member from Certain Doom. If they're a paladin, who's supposed to be doing that sort of stuff anyway, maybe the sacrifice is to let someone else be the hero by grabbing the Magic McGuffin and saving the day. Find something that fits your theme and works for the character, and then make a story that gives them a chance to seize that moment.
And if they don't, well, make another story with an opportunity to seize another moment and keep trying... while escalating the stakes on the curse.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I think you've created a problematic game conceit.
Firstly, I have an issue with this:
I have a player in my new campaign who has been cursed by her family and their patron deity after losing a family/religious relic. The family is all about charity and lawfulness and the deity is one of family and protection, so they have tasked her with completing a number of good deeds/filling a book with good deeds to have the curse broken within a year.
When you bestow a curse or such, you need to be specific about what the curse is broken by, and the player needs to know. It's no wonder the player is doing random stuff for shopkeepers. The problem appears to be that YOU don't know how to solve the curse. You know what doesn't solve the curse, but not what does.
I appreciate the POV. I do just want to clarify that the entirety of the premise of the curse (reason for it and how to break it) were all brought to me by the player themselves. I’m just trying to figure out a good way to make it work instead of just being like “good job you killed some bandits, curse broken”, and just in case they are never able to find the stolen item I want to give them another chance in a less direct way.
Uff. Well, that makes it even trickier to deal with: the player has given you a tricky situation to implement, because it requires constant updating of that book, but clearly they think that their 'good deed doing' is going to fulfil their backstory. Effectively they've gone too far in designing the backstory: they have told you, the DM, what has to happen in the storyline for them to be satisfied, essentially designing their own quest. But they can't design the quest: the DM needs to do that.
I suggest that you flip the player's predetermined plot on its head completely, which you can entirely do as DM and is way more fun.
The family has long been duped by what they believe to be a benevolent god, but in fact is a malevolent demigod/abyssal force that delights in driving families apart. Everyone in this family always suffers some fate like this. The fiend's goal is to ensure the character is away from their family so that they can break them down and corrupt the loner. Double twist: the demon is in fact the book/the relic/both and tries to isolate family members to devour them. It is bound to the family, and is their curse and doom. It needs them to feed.
Have the player keep filling up that book, but as they do, have the book begin communicating with the player, and its morality begins to become dubious.
Level 1 Book, Uncommon magic item, minor bonuses: It requires that the character donate all her wealth to charity
Level 2 Book, Rare magic item, good bonuses: It requires that everyone follow the law 100% to extremes. Littering? Punish it. Couldn't pay rent? Burn down the house.
Level 3 Book, Very Rare magic item, powerful bonus but needs the blood of the punished as ink to write entries: Everyone else is wrong. The character is always right. She should punish however she wishes. But she must also feed the book the blood of the guilty, or begins to experience curses
Stage 4: Learn how to vanquish the book, free the family from the curse
What counters this? The power of family. The demon may wipe out the original family - but the player can discover that you can create your own family. Or else have the original family be in on it all, worshippers of the malevolence, if you don't want to kill them.
Shake it up. Don't stick to the original idea - big surprises are great.
I wouldn't worry too much about what counts as a good deed or not until you see it in the moment. I mean you could find a child who lost their ball and then take the nearest ball you see from the nearest other child and give it to them, and I wouldn't necessarily call that a good deed. How they're helped also matters.
What I would focus on instead is just make a list if npc's with problems, and make sure that those people are populated into the world around the character. The character might overlook them or the might help them, but you can be the judge in the end of whether something counts in the eyes of the patron diety.
You could make something of a random encounter table, but instead of combat encounters you could come up with 6-8 npc's with varying problems, maybe each problem testing a different virtue. When the character enters a town you can roll on the table and see of maybe there's a sick woman begging on the side of the street or if the mayor's son has been kidnapped-- essentially is this something the character could stumble into or is this a good deed the character would actively pursue.
I think you've created a problematic game conceit.
Firstly, I have an issue with this:
I have a player in my new campaign who has been cursed by her family and their patron deity after losing a family/religious relic. The family is all about charity and lawfulness and the deity is one of family and protection, so they have tasked her with completing a number of good deeds/filling a book with good deeds to have the curse broken within a year.
When you bestow a curse or such, you need to be specific about what the curse is broken by, and the player needs to know. It's no wonder the player is doing random stuff for shopkeepers. The problem appears to be that YOU don't know how to solve the curse. You know what doesn't solve the curse, but not what does.
I appreciate the POV. I do just want to clarify that the entirety of the premise of the curse (reason for it and how to break it) were all brought to me by the player themselves. I’m just trying to figure out a good way to make it work instead of just being like “good job you killed some bandits, curse broken”, and just in case they are never able to find the stolen item I want to give them another chance in a less direct way.
Uff. Well, that makes it even trickier to deal with: the player has given you a tricky situation to implement, because it requires constant updating of that book, but clearly they think that their 'good deed doing' is going to fulfil their backstory. Effectively they've gone too far in designing the backstory: they have told you, the DM, what has to happen in the storyline for them to be satisfied, essentially designing their own quest. But they can't design the quest: the DM needs to do that.
I suggest that you flip the player's predetermined plot on its head completely, which you can entirely do as DM and is way more fun.
The family has long been duped by what they believe to be a benevolent god, but in fact is a malevolent demigod/abyssal force that delights in driving families apart. Everyone in this family always suffers some fate like this. The fiend's goal is to ensure the character is away from their family so that they can break them down and corrupt the loner. Double twist: the demon is in fact the book/the relic/both and tries to isolate family members to devour them. It is bound to the family, and is their curse and doom. It needs them to feed.
Have the player keep filling up that book, but as they do, have the book begin communicating with the player, and its morality begins to become dubious.
Level 1 Book, Uncommon magic item, minor bonuses: It requires that the character donate all her wealth to charity
Level 2 Book, Rare magic item, good bonuses: It requires that everyone follow the law 100% to extremes. Littering? Punish it. Couldn't pay rent? Burn down the house.
Level 3 Book, Very Rare magic item, powerful bonus but needs the blood of the punished as ink to write entries: Everyone else is wrong. The character is always right. She should punish however she wishes. But she must also feed the book the blood of the guilty, or begins to experience curses
Stage 4: Learn how to vanquish the book, free the family from the curse
What counters this? The power of family. The demon may wipe out the original family - but the player can discover that you can create your own family. Or else have the original family be in on it all, worshippers of the malevolence, if you don't want to kill them.
Shake it up. Don't stick to the original idea - big surprises are great.
I'm doing this. Like if you don't mind I take what you've suggested. I have a lesser deity that would totally pull something like this.
You want to teach the player character the value of friendship, and how to treat the party like they are family. Take each of the other characters. Look at their backstory, and consider their Background. Look at any Personality Traits, Ideals, Bonds and Flaws they have on their character sheet, and try to decide what things are important to their character. Then the curse compels the player character into trying to help them achieve their goals. Each time the cursed player character does something that helps, they get one point. I'd say 5 points for each of the other player characters should do the job and break the curse. That's the kind of thing that you do for family.
Keep in mind, they don't have to go so far as to get the other player characters far enough to achieve their goals, and that families bicker with each other a lot, so one of the things that should count as a point would be resolving arguments between them. They might be able to break the curse in one night, given the way I have seen some families behave.
As a DM I will say as much as you should give the player freedom to do as they want with a character you also need to make sure your game will flow and balance.
Your player has come to you with a unique interesting idea, that’s fantastic, you have tried running it strictly as written and it is causing you some headaches in game so I would have a talk with the player one to one and just discuss about if the details of this curse can be tweaked. This should be a roleplay flavour device that allows you scope to do some cool stuff, not a set of mechanics that you as dm have to keep track of. You risk derailing your campaign or isolating other players as they get bored of this one players backstory slowing down the game.
I suggest you explain your problems with the player and try and resolve in a way that keeps the emphasis on roleplay and not on mechanics while also maybe allowing them to not feel like that have to ask every npc if they need help all the time.
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I have a player in my new campaign who has been cursed by her family and their patron deity after losing a family/religious relic. The family is all about charity and lawfulness and the deity is one of family and protection, so they have tasked her with completing a number of good deeds/filling a book with good deeds to have the curse broken within a year.
The one theme I want to press with this character and the story is that 'family does not mean blood and comes in all forms' (aka her party).
Currently, the character is going around asking shop keepers and the like if she can help them, only because her family and her patron have told her to do 'go forth and help others'. So this isn't really what they want her to do.
I'm trying to figure out a table or point system of sorts so I can keep track of her 'brownie points' with the deity.
Does anyone have any ideas on how I can apply numerical value to things like taking a job because you want money versus a job because you actually want to help, helping someone just because you were told to, etc?
Thanks in advance!
Current Characters:
Inara, Changeling, Level 3 Ranger/Gloomstalker
Oraine Bramblebrand, Level 5 Monk/Way of Ascendant Dragon
Traditionally one of the elements of a good deed that makes it worthwhile is sacrifice. That is, although giving someone $10 for food is a nice thing to do for anyone, it's a much bigger "good deed" if it's your only $10, rather than if you have a couple mil to your name and you won't miss the $10 or even $10,000. So I would suggest that the points should depend at least partly on how much of a sacrifice the cursed PC has had to make. Giving 10% of her earnings to charity should be worth more than giving 5%, and less than giving 15%, that kind of thing. Doing something that costs the PC something emotionally or personally, should be worth points. As an example, there is a scene the Star Trek TNG episode "Measure of a Man" after the trial is over. Riker, Data's friend, was asked to prosecute the case that Data was not a living being with rights under Federation law. Although Riker didn't want to do that, as the next-ranking officer on the starbase at the time, he was required to prosecute data and he had to do a good job, or Data would be ruled against. Riker did a good job, and almost won the case. Later, the crew is celebrating Data's freedom, and Riker is not part of the group. When Data asks him why, he says he doesn't think he deserves it. Data points out that he would have been summarily convicted without Riker's prosecution and -- this is the important part -- that Data recognized that doing the prosecution cost Riker something, emotionally. It was painful for Riker to do it.
That's charity -- doing something that costs you something, to help someone else. So it seems to me that you need to weigh both how much good was done, and how much it cost the PC to do it. So if saving lives is worth 10 points, saving lives by laying down or risking your own should be worth 20 points, etc.
I'm not sure how you are going to exactly put points onto moral dilemmas, though. That sounds like a really tall task.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
That's a great way to look at it. Thank you.
Current Characters:
Inara, Changeling, Level 3 Ranger/Gloomstalker
Oraine Bramblebrand, Level 5 Monk/Way of Ascendant Dragon
You could check out/adapt the piety system in the theros book. It gives suggestions for which acts will make which gods happy. And conversely, which acts might make someone lose points.
It also has a system of bonuses you get for accumulating a certain number of points, if you want to give the character some positive reinforcement along the way,.
I think you've created a problematic game conceit.
Firstly, I have an issue with this:
I have a player in my new campaign who has been cursed by her family and their patron deity after losing a family/religious relic. The family is all about charity and lawfulness and the deity is one of family and protection, so they have tasked her with completing a number of good deeds/filling a book with good deeds to have the curse broken within a year.
So the deity and family are about charity and lawfulness but a family member gets a significant curse for losing something?
Secondly you've then made the objective of it something completely nebulous and there's no way for the character to know what to do. You've redefined 'family' to mean 'anyone you care about,' and not made it clear what needs doing.
When you bestow a curse or such, you need to be specific about what the curse is broken by, and the player needs to know. It's no wonder the player is doing random stuff for shopkeepers. The problem appears to be that YOU don't know how to solve the curse. You know what doesn't solve the curse, but not what does.
I suggest that something like this needs to be broken by something major in the storyline. A noble act of self sacrifice sounds good, but honestly how much should you have to sacrifice for losing a relic? Maybe she should have to get the relic back. That's for you to decide. But make sure your player knows exactly what they can do. A point system isn't going to be much fun if the storyline is resolved by the player giving someone a Potion of Healing, or buying them a meal.
I appreciate the POV. I do just want to clarify that the entirety of the premise of the curse (reason for it and how to break it) were all brought to me by the player themselves. I’m just trying to figure out a good way to make it work instead of just being like “good job you killed some bandits, curse broken”, and just in case they are never able to find the stolen item I want to give them another chance in a less direct way.
Current Characters:
Inara, Changeling, Level 3 Ranger/Gloomstalker
Oraine Bramblebrand, Level 5 Monk/Way of Ascendant Dragon
BioWizard and Sanvael are right, a point system probably isn't going to give you or the player a satisfying conclusion to the story. "Hey buddy, here's a sandwich." "Oh, you were at 999 points and now you're at 1000, curse broken."
Of course, that doesn't mean the player has to know that. Maybe the book and list of good deeds are just a ruse, or a misunderstanding, to help nudge the character in the right direction and build good habits. It just shouldn't be the solution.
You need to figure out a big moment that will result in the curse breaking. It doesn't even have to be the culmination of a specific quest or anything like that -- just decide what kind of emotional payoff you want, and build around that. If the character is a rogue, maybe they have to stop skulking in the shadows and sneak attacking and step in the way of a charging dragon to try and save another party member from Certain Doom. If they're a paladin, who's supposed to be doing that sort of stuff anyway, maybe the sacrifice is to let someone else be the hero by grabbing the Magic McGuffin and saving the day. Find something that fits your theme and works for the character, and then make a story that gives them a chance to seize that moment.
And if they don't, well, make another story with an opportunity to seize another moment and keep trying... while escalating the stakes on the curse.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Uff. Well, that makes it even trickier to deal with: the player has given you a tricky situation to implement, because it requires constant updating of that book, but clearly they think that their 'good deed doing' is going to fulfil their backstory. Effectively they've gone too far in designing the backstory: they have told you, the DM, what has to happen in the storyline for them to be satisfied, essentially designing their own quest. But they can't design the quest: the DM needs to do that.
I suggest that you flip the player's predetermined plot on its head completely, which you can entirely do as DM and is way more fun.
The family has long been duped by what they believe to be a benevolent god, but in fact is a malevolent demigod/abyssal force that delights in driving families apart. Everyone in this family always suffers some fate like this. The fiend's goal is to ensure the character is away from their family so that they can break them down and corrupt the loner. Double twist: the demon is in fact the book/the relic/both and tries to isolate family members to devour them. It is bound to the family, and is their curse and doom. It needs them to feed.
Have the player keep filling up that book, but as they do, have the book begin communicating with the player, and its morality begins to become dubious.
What counters this? The power of family. The demon may wipe out the original family - but the player can discover that you can create your own family. Or else have the original family be in on it all, worshippers of the malevolence, if you don't want to kill them.
Shake it up. Don't stick to the original idea - big surprises are great.
I wouldn't worry too much about what counts as a good deed or not until you see it in the moment. I mean you could find a child who lost their ball and then take the nearest ball you see from the nearest other child and give it to them, and I wouldn't necessarily call that a good deed. How they're helped also matters.
What I would focus on instead is just make a list if npc's with problems, and make sure that those people are populated into the world around the character. The character might overlook them or the might help them, but you can be the judge in the end of whether something counts in the eyes of the patron diety.
You could make something of a random encounter table, but instead of combat encounters you could come up with 6-8 npc's with varying problems, maybe each problem testing a different virtue. When the character enters a town you can roll on the table and see of maybe there's a sick woman begging on the side of the street or if the mayor's son has been kidnapped-- essentially is this something the character could stumble into or is this a good deed the character would actively pursue.
I'm doing this. Like if you don't mind I take what you've suggested. I have a lesser deity that would totally pull something like this.
Current Characters:
Inara, Changeling, Level 3 Ranger/Gloomstalker
Oraine Bramblebrand, Level 5 Monk/Way of Ascendant Dragon
Do it. It sounds awesome.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I'd be absolutely thrilled if my suggestion has helped you. I hope it's rewarding for you and your player :)
You want to teach the player character the value of friendship, and how to treat the party like they are family. Take each of the other characters. Look at their backstory, and consider their Background. Look at any Personality Traits, Ideals, Bonds and Flaws they have on their character sheet, and try to decide what things are important to their character. Then the curse compels the player character into trying to help them achieve their goals. Each time the cursed player character does something that helps, they get one point. I'd say 5 points for each of the other player characters should do the job and break the curse. That's the kind of thing that you do for family.
Keep in mind, they don't have to go so far as to get the other player characters far enough to achieve their goals, and that families bicker with each other a lot, so one of the things that should count as a point would be resolving arguments between them. They might be able to break the curse in one night, given the way I have seen some families behave.
<Insert clever signature here>
As a DM I will say as much as you should give the player freedom to do as they want with a character you also need to make sure your game will flow and balance.
Your player has come to you with a unique interesting idea, that’s fantastic, you have tried running it strictly as written and it is causing you some headaches in game so I would have a talk with the player one to one and just discuss about if the details of this curse can be tweaked. This should be a roleplay flavour device that allows you scope to do some cool stuff, not a set of mechanics that you as dm have to keep track of. You risk derailing your campaign or isolating other players as they get bored of this one players backstory slowing down the game.
I suggest you explain your problems with the player and try and resolve in a way that keeps the emphasis on roleplay and not on mechanics while also maybe allowing them to not feel like that have to ask every npc if they need help all the time.