the point is: before we started the current campain i asked everyone what would they like to play this time, and they all said "we want a heavy-roleplay experience"
that includes a inexperienced player (it's his first time), but his character ended up being... too inflexible,
i will be especific here so there's no room for guessing, his character consist of: 1. he will always separate from the party (I have no problem running for a split party, the problem is that he does it like he doesn't want to be part of the group and it bothers them) 2. he will randomly and arbitrarily attack players and NPCs (because his character have an "i don't give a shit" attitude, or something like that)
and that's it, there is no more to say about his character, he doesn't even (want to) talk to NPCs and stuff
as the DM i'm not bothered by it, i'm always very clear about that: the character will do whatever the players want to, though they will face consequences i will not force anyone to anything
but the players are very bothered by it, they actually want to kill him...
although he can have fun with his character, it's clear that it's not the most suitable for an roleplay experience, maybe for a dungeon crawler game (I remember my first character was just like that lol)
he said he wanted to have a roleplay experience (hope he knows what he wants) so i want to help him with that
but... how could i help him? i don't know how to aproach this without the felling that i'm being too intrusive
This requires an out of character discussion. Explain to the player the character he’s created does not work. D&D is a team game, and this character is not being a team player. He has a couple options: change the character’s personality to stop being a jerk, or make up a new character. If he starts giving you some load about player agency, explain that other players also have agency, and in game their most reasonable course of action would be to stop traveling with this guy, their second most reasonable would be to kill him.
But you say he’s a new player, so maybe be nicer than I am being here. Just be clear and unambiguous that this needs to stop.
It's ok for characters to split off, but advise them that if they do, they'll experience an appropriate percentage of gameplay time. So if there are 5 players, they get 12 minutes out of every hour.
In terms of his character being a jerk, have a chat with him and explain that he's either going to be exiled or killed by his own party because he's being a jerk. His only other option is to become nicer, so he can pick one of those three and role with it.
One veyr simple thing could be to use the character name and not the player's name.
IE, instead of saying "Ok jack, it's your turn, what do you do", say "Ok Jack, it's your turn, what does Fenrik do?"
As for the "I don't give a shot" attitude, tell him to make a character that does. Ask them why their character is there, why they are with the party. Why should they put up with them and not abandon them somewhere.
lone wolf characters are cool in stories, but suck for TTRPG's. Tell them to make a team player, and let them change their character to be one if they want to keep the name/stats/class etc.
It sounds like that player would be happier playing WoW or something like that. D&D is a cooperative experience. The group may have a certain level of inter-character conflict, but the victory of defeating the BBEG is made all that much sweeter by knowing that you had to overcome your differences and work together to do it. If one player insists that their character not even willing to interact with the party, they're obviously unwilling to be cooperative. If one player uses their character to randomly attack the other characters, that is just completely unacceptable.
Explain to that player that their idea of what is "fun" does not integrate with any aspect of what D&D is all about. Suggest that they take some time away from the game to explore other options and other games that may better conform to their expectations, because D&D most definitely is - not - it.
Lol I think this should be called "first character syndrome".
Let me guess, their character is an edge lord lone wolf who was raised by actual wolves when their parents were killed and THEN their wolf parents were ALSO killed so they are consumed by revenge and don't trust anybody?
I've had this same thing twice recently. Luckily for me both were fixed with a small out of game chat where I explained how their choices were making the game not fun for the other players, myself included. Also in both cases the players were shocked and had no idea. After that things turned around pretty quickly and haven't had (much) trouble since.
This requires an out of character discussion. Explain to the player the character he’s created does not work. D&D is a team game, and this character is not being a team player. He has a couple options: change the character’s personality to stop being a jerk, or make up a new character. If he starts giving you some load about player agency, explain that other players also have agency, and in game their most reasonable course of action would be to stop traveling with this guy, their second most reasonable would be to kill him.
But you say he’s a new player, so maybe be nicer than I am being here. Just be clear and unambiguous that this needs to stop.
There are many ways to play D&D and enjoy it, but when people are not enjoying it, then it is by definition the wrong way to play D&D. Players who use the Wangrod defense (as Matt C. calls it), are just straight-up playing D&D wrong and DM's that put up with it are straight-up running D&D wrong. The Wangrod defense however is not a gameplay issue, its a player issue and I agree with Xalthu that this is something to be solved outside of the game.
Now personally I would let this player split from the party one time and then put him up against something that might trigger his aggression that he has absolutely no chance to defeat and I would murder that character ruthlessly. Write it off as a lesson for the players so he gets a feel for what happens when characters don't stick together and work as a team, but that's just me.. I'm a hard ass!
thanks for the harsh words advices,
although he's a new player, i think i'll have to be straight with him, maybe it's better to talk before his character dies (by me or by the group) so i can make sure he understands what happened
It sounds like that player would be happier playing WoW or something like that. D&D is a cooperative experience. The group may have a certain level of inter-character conflict, but the victory of defeating the BBEG is made all that much sweeter by knowing that you had to overcome your differences and work together to do it. If one player insists that their character not even willing to interact with the party, they're obviously unwilling to be cooperative. If one player uses their character to randomly attack the other characters, that is just completely unacceptable.
Explain to that player that their idea of what is "fun" does not integrate with any aspect of what D&D is all about. Suggest that they take some time away from the game to explore other options and other games that may better conform to their expectations, because D&D most definitely is - not - it.
he actualy was a big wow player before, had lots of mounts and all
Lol I think this should be called "first character syndrome".
Let me guess, their character is an edge lord lone wolf who was raised by actual wolves when their parents were killed and THEN their wolf parents were ALSO killed so they are consumed by revenge and don't trust anybody?
I've had this same thing twice recently. Luckily for me both were fixed with a small out of game chat where I explained how their choices were making the game not fun for the other players, myself included. Also in both cases the players were shocked and had no idea. After that things turned around pretty quickly and haven't had (much) trouble since.
well, there is no wolves involved, but yeah he is as edge has any first character should be i think lol
This requires an out of character discussion. Explain to the player the character he’s created does not work. D&D is a team game, and this character is not being a team player. He has a couple options: change the character’s personality to stop being a jerk, or make up a new character. If he starts giving you some load about player agency, explain that other players also have agency, and in game their most reasonable course of action would be to stop traveling with this guy, their second most reasonable would be to kill him.
But you say he’s a new player, so maybe be nicer than I am being here. Just be clear and unambiguous that this needs to stop.
100% this.
It is entirely in-character for most players to kill or at least leave someone like this. They honetly should have already if they've been attacked.
Some folk let the "you can do anything" idea go to their heads, forgetting that so can everyone else.
This requires an out of character discussion. Explain to the player the character he’s created does not work. D&D is a team game, and this character is not being a team player. He has a couple options: change the character’s personality to stop being a jerk, or make up a new character. If he starts giving you some load about player agency, explain that other players also have agency, and in game their most reasonable course of action would be to stop traveling with this guy, their second most reasonable would be to kill him.
But you say he’s a new player, so maybe be nicer than I am being here. Just be clear and unambiguous that this needs to stop.
100% this.
It is entirely in-character for most players to kill or at least leave someone like this. They honetly should have already if they've been attacked.
Some folk let the "you can do anything" idea go to their heads, forgetting that so can everyone else.
yes, they already beat him until he fell unconscious
for the purpose i dind't make him roll deaths savings to see if he would learn the leason, he didn't. so next time they do it i'll have to let him die but i want him to actually learn something
i will be especific here so there's no room for guessing, his character consist of:
1. he will always separate from the party (I have no problem running for a split party, the problem is that he does it like he doesn't want to be part of the group and it bothers them)
I don't necessarily like the idea of questioning players' motives, but in this instance I would like to ask them why, or if they're going to explain their reasoning/actions to the party. Even if it's something as vague as "I have a plan," that's at least showing some purpose that isn't "I don't like this game and its players," which appears to be the case. This person doesn't appear as if they want to play the game, so this may be worth an out-of-game chat and just ask if they really want to be there.
I would make a point of asking in private if they want to leave. Don't tell them they should leave, they may be resistant to that, but if you ask them for their honest opinions on the game they may tell you that they didn't know what "heavy roleplaying" actually meant (given they're inexperienced, and you later say they're a big World of Warcraft player, which tells me there's some conflict in the mindset of what to expect from RP at the tabletop.)
I can appreciate how difficult talking can be. There'd be 80% less discussion on every D&D forum ever if people actually did talk, because it's far easier said than done (no pun intended), but this really does seem to be a player problem than a character problem. The only further advice I can give on how to talk to this player is with a smile; joke about how if they're not careful they're gonna get themselves killed, and it's your party members who will get all that juicy loot. I find jokes are the best form of diplomacy.
2. he will randomly and arbitrarily attack players and NPCs
(because his character have an "i don't give a shit" attitude, or something like that)
and that's it, there is no more to say about his character, he doesn't even (want to) talk to NPCs and stuff
Again, I think this is a player who's upset with their character and/or the way the game is being run, and wants to die so (without explicitely saying it) so they can get up and leave.
One of the best things I was told about acting out one's alignment, especially Chaotic Neutral or any evil one, was to explain the thought process behind it. You're not doing something because it is the evil thing to do, you're doing it because there's some benefit to you. Nobody believes they are evil, they believe what they are doing is right. Evil is always something that is attributed by someone else, as one would only call themself evil if they were mentally unhinged, had low self-esteem or were being sarcastic or ironic about it.
"I don't give a damn" isn't an excuse. Does this player attack people in real life when they're having a bad day? No, because there's repurcussions for that, such as provoked assault or even arrest. This player, however long they've been in civilisation, should have some idea of the crime and punishment of this place.
You might even make a point of demonstrating this: "...the sea air hits your nostrils hard as you enter the city's walls, except for you, Ilgrith, as like all sailors you're used to it. You're also familiar to the string of slurs and insults that come from a half-orc woman being hauled away by several heavily armed guardsmen, all of which are bloodied and battered. Ilgrith, thanks to your background in coastal towns, you know how harshly criminals are dealt with in even the cleanest docks, and that you shouldn't go seeking trouble, 'lest it seek you first." It should set the tone, as if to let the player (or at least one member of the party, and the rest of the players through your narration) know that there's trouble to be had with their attitude. They aren't forbidden from being disruptive, but they are warned in advance of the consequences.
Even if there are consequences and the player character dies... what then? Do they sit twiddling their thumbs, playing on their phone, or otherwise disrupt the rest of the fun for everyone? They don't seem to be the sort of player who would respect others' fun now their agency is taken away. I still err on the side of caution. Maybe they're too used to how video games work, especially if they're only used to MMORPGs such as WoW, and not other kinds of RPG where violence is but one solution and has greater impacts. They might well want to learn, but they need a teacher that has the patience to sit them down and go through how to RP in D&D. If you lack that patience and time, that's OK too, especially after this fiasco.
but the players are very bothered by it, they actually want to kill him...
Try as I might to sympathise with the player whose character (I hope you mean their character!) is about to be assassinated, this is a perfectly understandable reaction. But the party turning on this player's character is only going to be seen as turning on the player, and the player isn't going to want to be part of your group. Chances are they will leave, and do both your group and the game itself a disservice by turning others away because they didn't know better. I'm going to assume incompetence rather than malice with this person, because as I said above, nobody's evil to be evil, there's usually some underlying issue and that goes for IRL too. And while you and your more experienced fellows might go on to have good games by booting this person once their character has been betrayed, diplomacy might prove that this person could be a welcome addition for many future - and hopefully better - games.
Again, I must stress that this player be reminded what it means to RP, and how their actions are under the influence of cause and effect. This isn't World of Warcraft where a hostile NPC dies with no fanfare and respawns three minutes later; this is a world where these NPCs have family, friends, colleagues, and other people who will look out for them, and smell the decaying body stashed in a barrel.
If they don't care, find out what would make them care, and if you can't find that out (or they can't find that out for themselves), the question needs to be asked: "why are you playing?"
although he can have fun with his character, it's clear that it's not the most suitable for an roleplay experience, maybe for a dungeon crawler game (I remember my first character was just like that lol)
he said he wanted to have a roleplay experience (hope he knows what he wants) so i want to help him with that
but... how could i help him? i don't know how to aproach this without the felling that i'm being too intrusive
If being intrusive is going to save heartache down the line for you, that player, and the rest of the group, be intrusive. Ask if they're enjoying the game, their character, and if not, try and find a way to solve those problems. Don't feel bad if you feel they're not a good fit for the group and have to be removed. They might even be relieved because it seems like they feel obliged to be there (for whatever reason). If this isn't their cup of tea, maybe invite them back when there's a game that's more up to their speed, such as a dungeon crawl, or find out what reasonable accomodations and changes you can both make to make this player and their character a better fit. I don't think the rest of the party will mind if a few tweaks have to be made to the problem player's backstory in the name of a less dysfunctional game!
There's only so much you can do, but there are things you can do.
I hope the advice I gave is useful, and if not, I hope others here can provide answers to your problem. I wish you the absolute best in finding a solution that causes as minimal conflict and pain for all involved. ^^
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
- The Assemblage of Houses, World of Warcraft
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This requires an out of character discussion. Explain to the player the character he’s created does not work. D&D is a team game, and this character is not being a team player. He has a couple options: change the character’s personality to stop being a jerk, or make up a new character.
If he starts giving you some load about player agency, explain that other players also have agency, and in game their most reasonable course of action would be to stop traveling with this guy, their second most reasonable would be to kill him.
But you say he’s a new player, so maybe be nicer than I am being here. Just be clear and unambiguous that this needs to stop.
It's ok for characters to split off, but advise them that if they do, they'll experience an appropriate percentage of gameplay time. So if there are 5 players, they get 12 minutes out of every hour.
In terms of his character being a jerk, have a chat with him and explain that he's either going to be exiled or killed by his own party because he's being a jerk. His only other option is to become nicer, so he can pick one of those three and role with it.
One veyr simple thing could be to use the character name and not the player's name.
IE, instead of saying "Ok jack, it's your turn, what do you do", say "Ok Jack, it's your turn, what does Fenrik do?"
As for the "I don't give a shot" attitude, tell him to make a character that does. Ask them why their character is there, why they are with the party. Why should they put up with them and not abandon them somewhere.
lone wolf characters are cool in stories, but suck for TTRPG's. Tell them to make a team player, and let them change their character to be one if they want to keep the name/stats/class etc.
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No.
Sorry.
It sounds like that player would be happier playing WoW or something like that. D&D is a cooperative experience. The group may have a certain level of inter-character conflict, but the victory of defeating the BBEG is made all that much sweeter by knowing that you had to overcome your differences and work together to do it. If one player insists that their character not even willing to interact with the party, they're obviously unwilling to be cooperative. If one player uses their character to randomly attack the other characters, that is just completely unacceptable.
Explain to that player that their idea of what is "fun" does not integrate with any aspect of what D&D is all about. Suggest that they take some time away from the game to explore other options and other games that may better conform to their expectations, because D&D most definitely is - not - it.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
Lol I think this should be called "first character syndrome".
Let me guess, their character is an edge lord lone wolf who was raised by actual wolves when their parents were killed and THEN their wolf parents were ALSO killed so they are consumed by revenge and don't trust anybody?
I've had this same thing twice recently. Luckily for me both were fixed with a small out of game chat where I explained how their choices were making the game not fun for the other players, myself included. Also in both cases the players were shocked and had no idea. After that things turned around pretty quickly and haven't had (much) trouble since.
thanks for the
harsh wordsadvices,although he's a new player, i think i'll have to be straight with him, maybe it's better to talk before his character dies (by me or by the group) so i can make sure he understands what happened
he actualy was a big wow player before, had lots of mounts and all
well, there is no wolves involved, but yeah he is as edge has any first character should be i think lol
100% this.
It is entirely in-character for most players to kill or at least leave someone like this. They honetly should have already if they've been attacked.
Some folk let the "you can do anything" idea go to their heads, forgetting that so can everyone else.
That isn’t an in-game problem. It’s a real world problem.
In game solutions can’t fix real world problems.
The player is controlling you and the other players, forcing you to accommodate his whims.
Next time he runs off,njust let him…. And don’t trouble yourself to play separately with him.
Just let him run around until he comes back, or doesn’t, and keep playing with the main group.
yes, they already beat him until he fell unconscious
for the purpose i dind't make him roll deaths savings to see if he would learn the leason, he didn't. so next time they do it i'll have to let him die but i want him to actually learn something
I don't necessarily like the idea of questioning players' motives, but in this instance I would like to ask them why, or if they're going to explain their reasoning/actions to the party. Even if it's something as vague as "I have a plan," that's at least showing some purpose that isn't "I don't like this game and its players," which appears to be the case. This person doesn't appear as if they want to play the game, so this may be worth an out-of-game chat and just ask if they really want to be there.
I would make a point of asking in private if they want to leave. Don't tell them they should leave, they may be resistant to that, but if you ask them for their honest opinions on the game they may tell you that they didn't know what "heavy roleplaying" actually meant (given they're inexperienced, and you later say they're a big World of Warcraft player, which tells me there's some conflict in the mindset of what to expect from RP at the tabletop.)
I can appreciate how difficult talking can be. There'd be 80% less discussion on every D&D forum ever if people actually did talk, because it's far easier said than done (no pun intended), but this really does seem to be a player problem than a character problem. The only further advice I can give on how to talk to this player is with a smile; joke about how if they're not careful they're gonna get themselves killed, and it's your party members who will get all that juicy loot. I find jokes are the best form of diplomacy.
Again, I think this is a player who's upset with their character and/or the way the game is being run, and wants to die so (without explicitely saying it) so they can get up and leave.
One of the best things I was told about acting out one's alignment, especially Chaotic Neutral or any evil one, was to explain the thought process behind it. You're not doing something because it is the evil thing to do, you're doing it because there's some benefit to you. Nobody believes they are evil, they believe what they are doing is right. Evil is always something that is attributed by someone else, as one would only call themself evil if they were mentally unhinged, had low self-esteem or were being sarcastic or ironic about it.
"I don't give a damn" isn't an excuse. Does this player attack people in real life when they're having a bad day? No, because there's repurcussions for that, such as provoked assault or even arrest. This player, however long they've been in civilisation, should have some idea of the crime and punishment of this place.
You might even make a point of demonstrating this: "...the sea air hits your nostrils hard as you enter the city's walls, except for you, Ilgrith, as like all sailors you're used to it. You're also familiar to the string of slurs and insults that come from a half-orc woman being hauled away by several heavily armed guardsmen, all of which are bloodied and battered. Ilgrith, thanks to your background in coastal towns, you know how harshly criminals are dealt with in even the cleanest docks, and that you shouldn't go seeking trouble, 'lest it seek you first." It should set the tone, as if to let the player (or at least one member of the party, and the rest of the players through your narration) know that there's trouble to be had with their attitude. They aren't forbidden from being disruptive, but they are warned in advance of the consequences.
Even if there are consequences and the player character dies... what then? Do they sit twiddling their thumbs, playing on their phone, or otherwise disrupt the rest of the fun for everyone? They don't seem to be the sort of player who would respect others' fun now their agency is taken away. I still err on the side of caution. Maybe they're too used to how video games work, especially if they're only used to MMORPGs such as WoW, and not other kinds of RPG where violence is but one solution and has greater impacts. They might well want to learn, but they need a teacher that has the patience to sit them down and go through how to RP in D&D. If you lack that patience and time, that's OK too, especially after this fiasco.
Try as I might to sympathise with the player whose character (I hope you mean their character!) is about to be assassinated, this is a perfectly understandable reaction. But the party turning on this player's character is only going to be seen as turning on the player, and the player isn't going to want to be part of your group. Chances are they will leave, and do both your group and the game itself a disservice by turning others away because they didn't know better. I'm going to assume incompetence rather than malice with this person, because as I said above, nobody's evil to be evil, there's usually some underlying issue and that goes for IRL too. And while you and your more experienced fellows might go on to have good games by booting this person once their character has been betrayed, diplomacy might prove that this person could be a welcome addition for many future - and hopefully better - games.
Again, I must stress that this player be reminded what it means to RP, and how their actions are under the influence of cause and effect. This isn't World of Warcraft where a hostile NPC dies with no fanfare and respawns three minutes later; this is a world where these NPCs have family, friends, colleagues, and other people who will look out for them, and smell the decaying body stashed in a barrel.
If they don't care, find out what would make them care, and if you can't find that out (or they can't find that out for themselves), the question needs to be asked: "why are you playing?"
If being intrusive is going to save heartache down the line for you, that player, and the rest of the group, be intrusive. Ask if they're enjoying the game, their character, and if not, try and find a way to solve those problems. Don't feel bad if you feel they're not a good fit for the group and have to be removed. They might even be relieved because it seems like they feel obliged to be there (for whatever reason). If this isn't their cup of tea, maybe invite them back when there's a game that's more up to their speed, such as a dungeon crawl, or find out what reasonable accomodations and changes you can both make to make this player and their character a better fit. I don't think the rest of the party will mind if a few tweaks have to be made to the problem player's backstory in the name of a less dysfunctional game!
There's only so much you can do, but there are things you can do.
I hope the advice I gave is useful, and if not, I hope others here can provide answers to your problem. I wish you the absolute best in finding a solution that causes as minimal conflict and pain for all involved. ^^
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
- The Assemblage of Houses, World of Warcraft