Two of my players (both being Chaotic Neutral) consistently try to "break the DM." Their actions consistently keep the story from progressing and do not always end up in their favor. As a DM, I would like to take away the thought of them trying to break me but I want to do it in a manner of not having a TPK. There are eight of them along with a panther and yes, a black dragon wrymling after somehow making all of their animal handling checks. They are all Chaotic Neutral except the only two Chaotic Good players.
Going on a different note, two of my new players aren't as involved as I want them to be, one being a human barbarian and the other a half-elf ranger. What are some good ways to get them involved?
Public Mod Note
(Sedge):
Moved to new DMs Only board
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM for "The Diddly Dongers" currently going through HotDQ. DM since December '16.
How does one keep story from progressing except through inactivity? Surely their actions are contributing to the telling of a story, just not the one you had planned?
This sounds terribly frustrating so kudos for hanging in there. I often play with someone whose characters are often...challenging, but never to the extent that they interfere with the story. It sounds like you're all playing separate games with separate goals and I would probably start a session asking that question pretty openly; "Are we all playing this game to have fun together, because I get frustrated sometimes and maybe I'm not making the game you all want to play together." The DM role can be difficult and frustrating and challenging, and I'm not sure players can appreciate it without trying it themselves and understanding how hard it can be to think on your feet and come up with NPCs on-the-fly and invent city histories and royal families and...everything else.
Maybe you could step out of your role for a couple of sessions and see if someone else wants to try the DM role on for size. Maybe getting a "taste of their own medicine" and feeling the frustration that you are now might help? If no one else wants to DM, suggest that you're also playing the game and you're not enjoying it for a few reasons and explain your frustrations to see if they can tone down their obstinance.
On the other other hand, if this is the game your players want but it's not the one you want to lead, you're under no obligation to continue leading it. It is, after all, a game. It's meant to be fun for everyone.
You can also pull people aside outside the gaming session and voice your concerns or opinions instead of confronting everyone around the table. That might be the best way to see if your feelings about the uninvolved players is how they're feeling, or just how you think they're feeling. Maybe they aren't happy with the class they chose or the race or something else. You're the DM, you can adjust or change anything. You can mitigate a lot of player frustrations by just letting them play the game they want to play.
Ill keep all of this in mind for the next session, I really appreciate it. Im going of HotDQ but i try to optimize the story to the best of my ability with the characteristics of the PC's. They do like playing with the story that is set but the ever so often "bar fight to get money" is kind of putting a detriment in the other players enjoyment. I think that is where i was going
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM for "The Diddly Dongers" currently going through HotDQ. DM since December '16.
A problem you run into with a large group (more than about 4 players and a DM) is the sharing of a spotlight. I've found that you can handle this a few different ways. The first way is probably the easiest. Simply bring it up before your session (or your campaign if possible) and explain that you know there are a lot of players at the table and you want it to be fun for everyone. In doing so it brings it to the front of everyone's mind that the group is here to play.
A second way (which ties into the first way really) is to "freeze" and jump over to other players. We did this in a game many years ago and it helped to force some of our new players to be more outgoing and our seasoned players to chill out a bit. Eventually we worked into good rythm of spotlight holding and passing and even had our experienced players start asking the inexperienced players questions instead of the DM having to play a "Hold that thought..." freeze card.
It is possible to also split your group into two 8 players can easily make 2 sets of players in the same world/campaign and may even have the occasional meet up where both parties come together (as foe or friend!).
I agree that you should speak to your players directly, tell them that you don't enjoy their minigame of trying to ruin the game and would appreciate that they work with you rather than against you to tell a story, or experience a cool adventure.
You have to have a conversation with your players about ways to make the game enjoyable for everyone, including yourself. If your players continue to be jerks, you shouldn't try to punish their characters in game, because it just won't work. Be real, be vulnerable, but be firm. You are in charge, and they need to be able to play by your rules.
As for your two players who don't participate, I would let them be for a little while, especially if they're new. They may be scared to take the reigns, especially if they are constantly watching their party members derail things. However, once you think they are comfortable, I would suggest making some piece of their backstory essential to the party's current arc. Maybe one of them watched their family get murdered by a dragon, and now said dragon has become a greater threat and promises to wipe out a whole city. Along their quest to destroy the dragon, aspects of their past come up, and the party has to help them fight their figurative (and literal) demons.
create NPCs particurlay intereted in those players' characters. Like, NPCs which turn out to be relatives of those charatecters, or simply being in the same faction.
Whatever those NPCs may be, they make those player making decisions.
For a homebrew that I've been designing, there's a "patron God/dess" of the land, and so, every night, characters have to roll something. If they didn't piss off the god for that day, they roll from one chart, if they pissed them off, they roll from another one. The good chart: 1-10 normal/uneventful sleep, 11-15 memory dream, 16-20 random dream, 21-25 heart's desire in dream, 26-29 heaven gaze (short message from the god/dess), crit 30 prophesy. The bad chart: crit 30-21 nightmare, 20-16 sleepwalk (especially fun if they're sleeping near a fire or cliff- extra d8 roll to tell direction they walk- needs a saving throw to stop- failed save they keep walking until they pass), 15-11 insomnia (they are unable to sleep and get a rest), 10-6 hell gaze (see into hell, take a level of exhaustion until they take another rest), 5-2 coma (they don't wake for 24 hours and don't see any rest benefits), crit fail 1- death. I'm not sure how it could fit into your game, but it would probably put some players in their place. ...Or cause some of them to see just how much of it they can survive.
I might be slightly evil for making those charts, but it should be fun.
I'm running Storm King's Thunder right now with a group of 6 players. One of my players...we'll call him Half T, went out and bought the module I was running and running it on roll20. Now, I have no problem with people buying books or even playing the game I am running. I mean, there are so many options it's the same story but a different game. But my problem was that Th...I mean Half T was saying story elements that his character did not know while the players were in discussions with someone who was giving them their first taste of REAL information. I pulled Mr. Half T aside during our break and explained to him that what he was doing wasn't fair to the players in our gaming group and that he can't do that anymore. I let him know that it kind of angered me and I also found it a little disrespectful. After our chat, he didn't speak out of character again. Letting people know that they are upsetting you or making the game harder for you to run is okay. I mean, if they don't know...if it's just a game they're playing within your game, they should know. It's not fair to you or them if it gets out of hand. Just let them know. Also, a party of Choas...you brave, brave DM...lol my hat off to you. Maybe, give them all a magic item that changes their alignments? See if it's just their characters that are trying to break you and not them.
On to you second question...it's very simple. Take a page from the Elder Scrolls. Those two characters, have them kidnapped or teleported to a dungeon and have to work together to get out of it. If they are the only two doing the work then they have no choice but to play. It will let their characters shine a little bit in the spotlight and also give them a chance to get out of their shells. You're the DM, you can't cheat. In the end, it will not only progress the stories for their characters but it will be memorable as well. I had someone do this for me when I first started playing and it made me the player/DM I am today. (Thank you, Spencer, wherever you are!!!!)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
I might be slightly evil for making those charts, but it should be fun.
Um, if you're a DM you have a bit of evil in you regardless. So, you might be...but aren't we all! hahahahahaha /end maniacal laugh.
Using in game mechanics to put them in their place is a good idea as well... I suggested that he talk to them first, but sometimes you do have to be eviler than your players to get the story (and them) where it/they need to go. Nice chart!
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
Every player in any campaign is the hero of their own story. You're never telling just one story, you're telling a lot of stories.
I wonder if the players who you don't feel are as involved as the others think they're supporting players in someone else's story. To The Gmoat's own history, allowing them to be in their own story (I wouldn't force them to do anything, but I'd try to involve them more as "people who know important stuff" so they can participate and move the whole story forward) helps everyone have a better time. It makes the campaign feel more real. Everyone reacts to roleplaying differently. Some like the story elements, some like the combat, some like gaining XP and more power, some like knowing the rules and mechanics, and so on. Figuring out what your players like (why they're playing in the first place) will help you help them enjoy it all.
Ill keep all of this in mind for the next session, I really appreciate it. Im going of HotDQ but i try to optimize the story to the best of my ability with the characteristics of the PC's. They do like playing with the story that is set but the ever so often "bar fight to get money" is kind of putting a detriment in the other players enjoyment. I think that is where i was going
That problem "bar fight to get money" i had once with my actual group. Bar fights are always fun but sometimes the players just dont give a shit about anything thas is really important so I've just try to encourage them to interpretate his character as it should be. So a barbarian half-orc decided to kill everyone on the street who put the eyes on him and try to kill a guards man (my bad) . Well, to dont lose the control of the situations i just say that the guard put him fainted with one punch and I said that he was just a level 1 barbarian, even a half-orc with Int. 8 he aw not so stuped that could think he would slay a entire city guard just with his great axe."
Ill keep all of this in mind for the next session, I really appreciate it. Im going of HotDQ but i try to optimize the story to the best of my ability with the characteristics of the PC's. They do like playing with the story that is set but the ever so often "bar fight to get money" is kind of putting a detriment in the other players enjoyment. I think that is where i was going
If they're constantly messing up your world, in game consequences can be pretty powerful. Maybe they get caught by an overwhelming number of city guards after being "too much of a disruption," and get thrown in jail. Then the captain of the guard or a member of the government can offer to let them go free, but only if they promise to stop engaging in bar fights and do ____ task for them. That's also a handy way to get them started on an adventure hook ;)
They do like playing with the story that is set but the ever so often "bar fight to get money" is kind of putting a detriment in the other players enjoyment. I think that is where i was going
This above all. You have 8 players. Two of them are putting a damper on six other peoples fun at the table. You all need to have a serious discussion together about this.
I wouldn't allow this at my table. I've been a DM 30 years, and I can read my players. I know from the first, sometimes by the second session, if things are going to go south with a player. Once I see a disruptive player, it's all down to who else is having fun. If everyone is still having fun, I adjust my game and its D&D as usual. If half the party is having fun, and the other half not. We have a talk before we start the next session and try to find a resolution "What game do you want to play?" If no one else is having fun, the disruptive players don't get invited back. And it stinks when those players are your friends. You can still run a game for them, just not this particular campaign.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Welcome to the Grand Illusion, come on in and see what's happening, pay the price, get your ticket for the show....
Have a conversation. Find out what would be fun for them. Maybe they feel most of the adventure is suited to everyone else and the "bar fight" is the only time their characters get to be their characters and not just tagging along with the party. Don't reward them with in-game responses, putting them in jail just means they get to argue with the guard, break out of jail, repeat. Find something in the adventure that is suited more to them if this is the case.
Otherwise, tell them you are not wasting time at the table with bar fights. If that is how they want their characters to spend their downtime, then they have a lifestyle of bar fighting and make a few gold doing it, but it is not something that is getting any more focus during game time unless it is to the benefit of the rest of the table.
If the players are getting in a bar fight, you could try some type of fighting tournament where they still get to do that.
As an added bonus losing a bar fight and waking up without gold or something could help change their mind. Just make sure they have a legit chance of winning. (unless you give clues that the player can't beat that NPC, then it's on them.)
Two of my players (both being Chaotic Neutral) consistently try to "break the DM." Their actions consistently keep the story from progressing and do not always end up in their favor. As a DM, I would like to take away the thought of them trying to break me but I want to do it in a manner of not having a TPK. There are eight of them along with a panther and yes, a black dragon wrymling after somehow making all of their animal handling checks. They are all Chaotic Neutral except the only two Chaotic Good players.
Going on a different note, two of my new players aren't as involved as I want them to be, one being a human barbarian and the other a half-elf ranger. What are some good ways to get them involved?
DM for "The Diddly Dongers" currently going through HotDQ. DM since December '16.
How does one keep story from progressing except through inactivity? Surely their actions are contributing to the telling of a story, just not the one you had planned?
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
This sounds terribly frustrating so kudos for hanging in there. I often play with someone whose characters are often...challenging, but never to the extent that they interfere with the story. It sounds like you're all playing separate games with separate goals and I would probably start a session asking that question pretty openly; "Are we all playing this game to have fun together, because I get frustrated sometimes and maybe I'm not making the game you all want to play together." The DM role can be difficult and frustrating and challenging, and I'm not sure players can appreciate it without trying it themselves and understanding how hard it can be to think on your feet and come up with NPCs on-the-fly and invent city histories and royal families and...everything else.
Maybe you could step out of your role for a couple of sessions and see if someone else wants to try the DM role on for size. Maybe getting a "taste of their own medicine" and feeling the frustration that you are now might help? If no one else wants to DM, suggest that you're also playing the game and you're not enjoying it for a few reasons and explain your frustrations to see if they can tone down their obstinance.
On the other other hand, if this is the game your players want but it's not the one you want to lead, you're under no obligation to continue leading it. It is, after all, a game. It's meant to be fun for everyone.
You can also pull people aside outside the gaming session and voice your concerns or opinions instead of confronting everyone around the table. That might be the best way to see if your feelings about the uninvolved players is how they're feeling, or just how you think they're feeling. Maybe they aren't happy with the class they chose or the race or something else. You're the DM, you can adjust or change anything. You can mitigate a lot of player frustrations by just letting them play the game they want to play.
Ill keep all of this in mind for the next session, I really appreciate it. Im going of HotDQ but i try to optimize the story to the best of my ability with the characteristics of the PC's. They do like playing with the story that is set but the ever so often "bar fight to get money" is kind of putting a detriment in the other players enjoyment. I think that is where i was going
DM for "The Diddly Dongers" currently going through HotDQ. DM since December '16.
A problem you run into with a large group (more than about 4 players and a DM) is the sharing of a spotlight. I've found that you can handle this a few different ways. The first way is probably the easiest. Simply bring it up before your session (or your campaign if possible) and explain that you know there are a lot of players at the table and you want it to be fun for everyone. In doing so it brings it to the front of everyone's mind that the group is here to play.
A second way (which ties into the first way really) is to "freeze" and jump over to other players. We did this in a game many years ago and it helped to force some of our new players to be more outgoing and our seasoned players to chill out a bit. Eventually we worked into good rythm of spotlight holding and passing and even had our experienced players start asking the inexperienced players questions instead of the DM having to play a "Hold that thought..." freeze card.
It is possible to also split your group into two 8 players can easily make 2 sets of players in the same world/campaign and may even have the occasional meet up where both parties come together (as foe or friend!).
I agree that you should speak to your players directly, tell them that you don't enjoy their minigame of trying to ruin the game and would appreciate that they work with you rather than against you to tell a story, or experience a cool adventure.
I had a player try that with me once.
His character sat in jail for most of the session due to poor choices. Oops.
You have to have a conversation with your players about ways to make the game enjoyable for everyone, including yourself. If your players continue to be jerks, you shouldn't try to punish their characters in game, because it just won't work. Be real, be vulnerable, but be firm. You are in charge, and they need to be able to play by your rules.
As for your two players who don't participate, I would let them be for a little while, especially if they're new. They may be scared to take the reigns, especially if they are constantly watching their party members derail things. However, once you think they are comfortable, I would suggest making some piece of their backstory essential to the party's current arc. Maybe one of them watched their family get murdered by a dragon, and now said dragon has become a greater threat and promises to wipe out a whole city. Along their quest to destroy the dragon, aspects of their past come up, and the party has to help them fight their figurative (and literal) demons.
PBP: DM of Titans of Tomorrow
PBP: Lera Zahuv in Whispers of Dissent
PBP: Evaine Brae in Innistrad: Dark Ascension
PBP: Cor'avin in Tomb of Annihilation
To getting not-so-involved-player involved:
create NPCs particurlay intereted in those players' characters. Like, NPCs which turn out to be relatives of those charatecters, or simply being in the same faction.
Whatever those NPCs may be, they make those player making decisions.
For a homebrew that I've been designing, there's a "patron God/dess" of the land, and so, every night, characters have to roll something. If they didn't piss off the god for that day, they roll from one chart, if they pissed them off, they roll from another one. The good chart: 1-10 normal/uneventful sleep, 11-15 memory dream, 16-20 random dream, 21-25 heart's desire in dream, 26-29 heaven gaze (short message from the god/dess), crit 30 prophesy. The bad chart: crit 30-21 nightmare, 20-16 sleepwalk (especially fun if they're sleeping near a fire or cliff- extra d8 roll to tell direction they walk- needs a saving throw to stop- failed save they keep walking until they pass), 15-11 insomnia (they are unable to sleep and get a rest), 10-6 hell gaze (see into hell, take a level of exhaustion until they take another rest), 5-2 coma (they don't wake for 24 hours and don't see any rest benefits), crit fail 1- death. I'm not sure how it could fit into your game, but it would probably put some players in their place. ...Or cause some of them to see just how much of it they can survive.
I might be slightly evil for making those charts, but it should be fun.
I'm running Storm King's Thunder right now with a group of 6 players. One of my players...we'll call him Half T, went out and bought the module I was running and running it on roll20. Now, I have no problem with people buying books or even playing the game I am running. I mean, there are so many options it's the same story but a different game. But my problem was that Th...I mean Half T was saying story elements that his character did not know while the players were in discussions with someone who was giving them their first taste of REAL information. I pulled Mr. Half T aside during our break and explained to him that what he was doing wasn't fair to the players in our gaming group and that he can't do that anymore. I let him know that it kind of angered me and I also found it a little disrespectful. After our chat, he didn't speak out of character again. Letting people know that they are upsetting you or making the game harder for you to run is okay. I mean, if they don't know...if it's just a game they're playing within your game, they should know. It's not fair to you or them if it gets out of hand. Just let them know. Also, a party of Choas...you brave, brave DM...lol my hat off to you. Maybe, give them all a magic item that changes their alignments? See if it's just their characters that are trying to break you and not them.
On to you second question...it's very simple. Take a page from the Elder Scrolls. Those two characters, have them kidnapped or teleported to a dungeon and have to work together to get out of it. If they are the only two doing the work then they have no choice but to play. It will let their characters shine a little bit in the spotlight and also give them a chance to get out of their shells. You're the DM, you can't cheat. In the end, it will not only progress the stories for their characters but it will be memorable as well. I had someone do this for me when I first started playing and it made me the player/DM I am today. (Thank you, Spencer, wherever you are!!!!)
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
Um, if you're a DM you have a bit of evil in you regardless. So, you might be...but aren't we all! hahahahahaha /end maniacal laugh.
Using in game mechanics to put them in their place is a good idea as well... I suggested that he talk to them first, but sometimes you do have to be eviler than your players to get the story (and them) where it/they need to go. Nice chart!
"...Debts must always be paid, sometimes in more than blood and gold. But this is Ordo Ursa," Ren places his hand on Erakas's chest, right where the Dragonborn's heart is. "Right here. And it always has been and always will be. Don't ever forget that. Because I won't."
Serandis Mendaen (Aereni Elven Rogue/maybe one day Wizard)- Project Point Playtest
Every player in any campaign is the hero of their own story. You're never telling just one story, you're telling a lot of stories.
I wonder if the players who you don't feel are as involved as the others think they're supporting players in someone else's story. To The Gmoat's own history, allowing them to be in their own story (I wouldn't force them to do anything, but I'd try to involve them more as "people who know important stuff" so they can participate and move the whole story forward) helps everyone have a better time. It makes the campaign feel more real. Everyone reacts to roleplaying differently. Some like the story elements, some like the combat, some like gaining XP and more power, some like knowing the rules and mechanics, and so on. Figuring out what your players like (why they're playing in the first place) will help you help them enjoy it all.
PBP: DM of Titans of Tomorrow
PBP: Lera Zahuv in Whispers of Dissent
PBP: Evaine Brae in Innistrad: Dark Ascension
PBP: Cor'avin in Tomb of Annihilation
Welcome to the Grand Illusion, come on in and see what's happening, pay the price, get your ticket for the show....
Have a conversation. Find out what would be fun for them. Maybe they feel most of the adventure is suited to everyone else and the "bar fight" is the only time their characters get to be their characters and not just tagging along with the party. Don't reward them with in-game responses, putting them in jail just means they get to argue with the guard, break out of jail, repeat. Find something in the adventure that is suited more to them if this is the case.
Otherwise, tell them you are not wasting time at the table with bar fights. If that is how they want their characters to spend their downtime, then they have a lifestyle of bar fighting and make a few gold doing it, but it is not something that is getting any more focus during game time unless it is to the benefit of the rest of the table.
If the players are getting in a bar fight, you could try some type of fighting tournament where they still get to do that.
As an added bonus losing a bar fight and waking up without gold or something could help change their mind. Just make sure they have a legit chance of winning. (unless you give clues that the player can't beat that NPC, then it's on them.)
NightsLastHero, that's an awesome idea as well. I might have a DBZ Tenkaiichi style tournament in my game now just because.
Welcome to the Grand Illusion, come on in and see what's happening, pay the price, get your ticket for the show....