One of my players and I were discussing the spell "Magic Jar". In the description it states,
"You can attempt to possess any humanoid within 100 feet of you that you can see".
Would that include a polymorphed dragon? I mean, if the dragon is polymorphed into a humanoid, it has the humanoid creature type. To me, it seems like it could be over powered. Or, am I reading the spell wrong?
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
One of my players and I were discussing the spell "Magic Jar". In the description it states,
"You can attempt to possess any humanoid within 100 feet of you that you can see".
Would that include a polymorphed dragon? I mean, if the dragon is polymorphed into a humanoid, it has the humanoid creature type. To me, it seems like it could be over powered. Or, am I reading the spell wrong?
I generally assume that polymorph effects don't actually change creature type, as letting it do so has a bunch of side effects, such as letting a succubus walk right through Magic Circle.
One of my players and I were discussing the spell "Magic Jar". In the description it states,
"You can attempt to possess any humanoid within 100 feet of you that you can see".
Would that include a polymorphed dragon? I mean, if the dragon is polymorphed into a humanoid, it has the humanoid creature type. To me, it seems like it could be over powered. Or, am I reading the spell wrong?
I generally assume that polymorph effects don't actually change creature type, as letting it do so has a bunch of side effects, such as letting a succubus walk right through Magic Circle.
The Magic Jar spell does have a blurb regarding magic circle,
One of my players and I were discussing the spell "Magic Jar". In the description it states,
"You can attempt to possess any humanoid within 100 feet of you that you can see".
Would that include a polymorphed dragon? I mean, if the dragon is polymorphed into a humanoid, it has the humanoid creature type. To me, it seems like it could be over powered. Or, am I reading the spell wrong?
I generally assume that polymorph effects don't actually change creature type, as letting it do so has a bunch of side effects, such as letting a succubus walk right through Magic Circle.
The Magic Jar spell does have a blurb regarding magic circle,
Not my point. The point is that having fiends able to walk through protections against fiends by using polymorph to temporarily change creature type is undesirable.
I see what you mean now. So, I guess the question is, "does polymorph change your creature type?" I know, as a DM, you can home brew a rule, but what does the raw rules say? I'll have to check out sage advice on that one.
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
For the Succubus shape changing ability, the wording includes "Other than its size and speed, its statistics are the same in each form." and creature type would be one of its statistics.
I see what you mean now. So, I guess the question is, "does polymorph change your creature type?" I know, as a DM, you can home brew a rule, but what does the raw rules say? I'll have to check out sage advice on that one.
You do understand you can use your own common sense on if something should be allowed or not, you don't have to rely on Sage Advice and you can go against Sage Advice if you don't like the ruling. It has been that way for DM'ing since the 70's. Even people who'd call Gary about a ruling he'd ask them what did they do for the call? Their answer was better than his. You are the DM, not a robot. If you want to allow the spell to work on a polymorphed dragon then do it, if not then don't. Flip a coin and the side you want up, that's your answer on the ruling.
I see what you mean now. So, I guess the question is, "does polymorph change your creature type?" I know, as a DM, you can home brew a rule, but what does the raw rules say? I'll have to check out sage advice on that one.
You do understand you can use your own common sense on if something should be allowed or not, you don't have to rely on Sage Advice and you can go against Sage Advice if you don't like the ruling. It has been that way for DM'ing since the 70's. Even people who'd call Gary about a ruling he'd ask them what did they do for the call? Their answer was better than his. You are the DM, not a robot. If you want to allow the spell to work on a polymorphed dragon then do it, if not then don't. Flip a coin and the side you want up, that's your answer on the ruling.
Like I stated above, “I know, as a DM, you can home brew a rule, but what does the raw rules say?” My wanting to know the raw rules is for my own curiosity and to know as many facts as I can (in case of rule lawyers), but mostly my own curiosity.
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
Well, there's the basic rule of spells only do what they say. And polymorph doesn't say it changes the creature type, so it could be a valid ruling to say it does not. However, polymorph does say "game statistics" are replaced by the new creature's game statistics. So, it's going to depend on your definition of "game statistics." If you consider creature type to be a "game statistic" then it would change to match the new creature. Whether or not you consider creature type to be a game statistic is really going to be up to you, since the term afaik, is undefined.
Personally, I'd go with pantagreul's idea of saying no, because it could probably lead to all sorts of shenanigans. And you can lean on the general rule of spells do only what they say, and it doesn't say it does.
Note that a dragon isn't going to use polymorph to turn into a humanoid form, as that spell doesn't allow turning into a humanoid, it's going to use its innate Change Shape ability, which the DM can trivially house rule. In practice there are enough abuses available with Magic Jar that the DM should think twice about even allowing it in a game (surprised it isn't Concentration).
As others have mentioned, a dragon can't use polymorph to do this because humanoid isn't a beast. However, Change Shape would work as it says:
Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form
As "Type" is a statistic (see Monster Manual) then Magic Jar should be able to work on a Dragon that has used Change Shape as its type would now be Humanoid.
The fun however is what happens if the possessor changes back into a dragon. It isn't an instantaneous spell, so if their type became Dragon again I'd rule that the target became invalid and the spell ends; meaning you'd be shunting back into your body (if it's within 100ft).
Magic jar can be used on the changed shape dragon, the question is if it stays possessed as it has no statement that if their creature type changes you are ejected from it, you only are ejected if you want or if the body dies. Personally, I would allow it as it is a spell primarily for the DM as it is not the most useful in combat and very risky for scouting so you could have a villain use it to possess a friendly dragon who often is in human form to transform into it true form fight the party.
The bigger question is if the possessed person is cloned while effected by magic jar whose clone is it, the original body or the person who possessed it.
One of my players and I were discussing the spell "Magic Jar". In the description it states,
Would that include a polymorphed dragon? I mean, if the dragon is polymorphed into a humanoid, it has the humanoid creature type. To me, it seems like it could be over powered. Or, am I reading the spell wrong?
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
I generally assume that polymorph effects don't actually change creature type, as letting it do so has a bunch of side effects, such as letting a succubus walk right through Magic Circle.
I would treat the polymorphed dragon as a dragon and not a humanoid until it reverted back to a humanoid.
The Magic Jar spell does have a blurb regarding magic circle,
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
Not my point. The point is that having fiends able to walk through protections against fiends by using polymorph to temporarily change creature type is undesirable.
I see what you mean now. So, I guess the question is, "does polymorph change your creature type?" I know, as a DM, you can home brew a rule, but what does the raw rules say? I'll have to check out sage advice on that one.
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
For the Succubus shape changing ability, the wording includes "Other than its size and speed, its statistics are the same in each form." and creature type would be one of its statistics.
You do understand you can use your own common sense on if something should be allowed or not, you don't have to rely on Sage Advice and you can go against Sage Advice if you don't like the ruling. It has been that way for DM'ing since the 70's. Even people who'd call Gary about a ruling he'd ask them what did they do for the call? Their answer was better than his. You are the DM, not a robot. If you want to allow the spell to work on a polymorphed dragon then do it, if not then don't. Flip a coin and the side you want up, that's your answer on the ruling.
Like I stated above, “I know, as a DM, you can home brew a rule, but what does the raw rules say?” My wanting to know the raw rules is for my own curiosity and to know as many facts as I can (in case of rule lawyers), but mostly my own curiosity.
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
Well, there's the basic rule of spells only do what they say. And polymorph doesn't say it changes the creature type, so it could be a valid ruling to say it does not. However, polymorph does say "game statistics" are replaced by the new creature's game statistics. So, it's going to depend on your definition of "game statistics." If you consider creature type to be a "game statistic" then it would change to match the new creature. Whether or not you consider creature type to be a game statistic is really going to be up to you, since the term afaik, is undefined.
Personally, I'd go with pantagreul's idea of saying no, because it could probably lead to all sorts of shenanigans. And you can lean on the general rule of spells do only what they say, and it doesn't say it does.
Note that a dragon isn't going to use polymorph to turn into a humanoid form, as that spell doesn't allow turning into a humanoid, it's going to use its innate Change Shape ability, which the DM can trivially house rule. In practice there are enough abuses available with Magic Jar that the DM should think twice about even allowing it in a game (surprised it isn't Concentration).
As others have mentioned, a dragon can't use polymorph to do this because humanoid isn't a beast. However, Change Shape would work as it says:
As "Type" is a statistic (see Monster Manual) then Magic Jar should be able to work on a Dragon that has used Change Shape as its type would now be Humanoid.
The fun however is what happens if the possessor changes back into a dragon. It isn't an instantaneous spell, so if their type became Dragon again I'd rule that the target became invalid and the spell ends; meaning you'd be shunting back into your body (if it's within 100ft).
"Game statistics" is not a term that's open to interpretation. It's very clearly defined in the Monster Manual. And yes, creature type is part of it.
Magic jar can be used on the changed shape dragon, the question is if it stays possessed as it has no statement that if their creature type changes you are ejected from it, you only are ejected if you want or if the body dies. Personally, I would allow it as it is a spell primarily for the DM as it is not the most useful in combat and very risky for scouting so you could have a villain use it to possess a friendly dragon who often is in human form to transform into it true form fight the party.
The bigger question is if the possessed person is cloned while effected by magic jar whose clone is it, the original body or the person who possessed it.
Thank you for the correction