Hey...running a one shot with a few friends. Kind of a Hansel and Gretel thing. I'm thinking two Hags at some point about 13 years ago kidnapped and ate a child, birthed them and returned them.
The heroes will run into the distraught mother and want to help, yada yada yada...
So I'm going to break the rule and have two Green Coven Hags and just say since the third one is hours away from transforming, they get the Coven spells
The party is six level 5 players and I'm worried about the power of some of the spells the Hags have access to. Eyebite is a sixth level spell. Now, I get the spell save is 13, but that's a powerful spell for a group of level 5 adventurers. Polymorph and Phantasmal Killer aren't as bad...players can cast them at level 7 or so, but I just want to make sure that I'm not throwing something at the group that they can't handle? If I were to just do the Hags, yea, their concentration would break due to action economy and the dice gods, but I also was going to have the bones of a few children (skeletons) rise up. Maybe 3-4
Maybe as an alternative I should do 1 night hag (coven variant) and just have it be two daughters were kidnapped. This way there is only 1 powerful spell caster
The encounter builder classes it as a hard encounter with the 4 skeleton variant, which doesn't sound to OP to me aspechially as it's the showdown set piece.
I'd probably worry if the group has means to revivify just incase a PC does go down... certainly adds to the drama and memorability of an encounter
not sure if that's particularly helpful, with 6 players I'm thinking it shouldn't be a problem but that said I find it difficult to judge if something's going to be to hard and over worry about it but in the end if it does go off the rails you can always adjust things on the fly.
tobe honest I just found your post rather interesting and would really like know what you decide on and hear how it went :o
wishing you all the best
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“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
The encounter builder classes it as a hard encounter with the 4 skeleton variant, which doesn't sound to OP to me aspechially as it's the showdown set piece.
I'd probably worry if the group has means to revivify just incase a PC does go down... certainly adds to the drama and memorability of an encounter
not sure if that's particularly helpful, with 6 players I'm thinking it shouldn't be a problem but that said I find it difficult to judge if something's going to be to hard and over worry about it but in the end if it does go off the rails you can always adjust things on the fly.
tobe honest I just found your post rather interesting and would really like know what you decide on and hear how it went :o
wishing you all the best
Thanks!
I tweaked the some. Instead of two green Hags I went with *one* Night Hag. I think the potential for two high level concentration spells was a bit too worrisome and instead of it being one daughter kidnapped it will be two so she still gets the coven spells.
Added 2 ghasts, 1 skeleton and 2 crawling claws as cannon fodder
Encounter builder has it as hard...very close to deadly, but I feel pretty good about it.
At level 5, action economy will play a heavy role in this combat encounter. Melee starts getting Extra Attack, each of 6 PCs gets a bonus action per turn, the party can potentially focus fire on one hag and kill it round one. That probability might increase, initiative dependent.
If this is the only combat encounter for the day, the party might not break a sweat. I would definitely recommend skeleton mobs, or other creepy-weird things helping them out. Stone Cursed, Boneless and Quickling all pair well with weird magic, and might add some different flavor.
Quicklings, I only use them to harass/hinder. Pranks like stealing a component pouch, or quiver. Maybe tie the archer's boots together. Unbuckle a shield. I limit the prank to one turn, but that result could swing a battle, use sparingly.
Good luck with this, I love a good hag battle. Chicken-footed-hut and all!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
At level 5, action economy will play a heavy role in this combat encounter. Melee starts getting Extra Attack, each of 6 PCs gets a bonus action per turn, the party can potentially focus fire on one hag and kill it round one. That probability might increase, initiative dependent.
If this is the only combat encounter for the day, the party might not break a sweat. I would definitely recommend skeleton mobs, or other creepy-weird things helping them out. Stone Cursed, Boneless and Quickling all pair well with weird magic, and might add some different flavor.
Quicklings, I only use them to harass/hinder. Pranks like stealing a component pouch, or quiver. Maybe tie the archer's boots together. Unbuckle a shield. I limit the prank to one turn, but that result could swing a battle, use sparingly.
Good luck with this, I love a good hag battle. Chicken-footed-hut and all!
Going to be three encounters and due to the time sensitivity of this (the twins will fully transform into Hags at midnight) they'll get *one* short rest
First two are rated medium...last one is rated hard
I'd say that depending on the Initiative roll, this is likely to be a cake walk or a massacre.
Hags have decent enough AC and their hit points are actually pretty good for a CR5 creature. They can take a few hits, but the main issue is that if the Hags win initiative then this could happen if you play the Hags at max effect:
Eyebite is extremely weak for a level 6 spell. It's vastly weaker than Hold Person cast at 6th level. It's unlikely the hag will maintain concentration to get a second use of it. However, the Hags have Hold Person! If they win Initiative, then the first hag casts Hold Person on 5 of the opposing party using the 6th level spell slot. The 2nd Hag then casts Hold Person using the 5th level slot, targeting everyone who failed their save and additionally using it on some who didn't. Most characters will then be held, and some will have 2 instances of the spell. Most of the players miss their turns while the hags wail on them, and the chances of breaking concentration are seriously reduced. Being paralysed means they players can't move, take actions, and melee hits are all critical hits. And if enough PCs escape or they lose Concentration, just recast it with the next 5th and the 4th levels spell slots.
Both Hags then also have access to counterspell so you should be locking down any major spells that might fly their way for at least the first 2 turns of combat, so spellcasters will be pretty useless against them.
However. You're probably rolling 1 Initiative for the Hags, maximum 2, so it's likely that they won't be top of the round. In that case, one of the hags could well just die to a slew of non-spell attacks if you've got a melee heavy party. Unless they lock the PCs down they'll just get nuked pretty fast. If you split initiative for the hags, they're even less likely to be able to do the double Hold Person attack, and the first may lose Concentration before the affected PCs take a turn. If that happens, then Hold Person didn't actually do anything, but if you target the PCs who've not had a turn yet or they happen to fail saves, then you're back into the double-hold position again.
This was a long post to say: it's probably best not to let them use Hold Person against PCs at this level as they might not be sturdy enough to take the hits.
I don't think you should worry about them being too powerful. Hags are the kind of enemy where the party losing (a tpk) doesn't necessarily mean death, they can be reasoned with and they prefer to capture and play with people over kill. They're also great creatures to have players know are around because they give the option of fey deals if they get stuck which is a great out for big problems because it doesn't come cheap. I say make combat with them difficult, consider giving them traps in their house to use like a box full of crawling claws or poison gases that knock players unconscious. The players going down or getting trapped will likely only increase the fun of this kind of enemy as it opens up a good chance for negotiations and a victory beyond just smashing some skulls.
Personally I love the tactic above where they hold person the entire party, what a way to start a conversation. Then they can give the gut punch of explaining the kid is already dead and was replaced by a hag changeling.
having perused it I'm thinking your original 2 Green Hag (Coven Variant) +hench monsters scenario CynnamonV would be a more interesting end fight, but if you do go with 1 Night Hag (Coven Variant) then you should probably incorporate the Night Hag (Coven Variant)Nightmare Haunting into the story maybe the children's father getting him to suspect and persecute some other villagers for his children's abduction?
whatever you end up doing would be super interested to hear how it turns out
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
His website and book are full of good tactics to apply. He's even done a revisit after VGtM came out to incorporate the "Grandmother Hags" and lair actions and regional effects.
Using the tactics that are outlined in his books/articles makes creatures *feel* like they hit harder than they do. At least it seems that way. They're definitely more fun to play.
Regardless, good luck. I hope to hear how this turns out!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
At level 5, action economy will play a heavy role in this combat encounter. Melee starts getting Extra Attack, each of 6 PCs gets a bonus action per turn, the party can potentially focus fire on one hag and kill it round one. That probability might increase, initiative dependent.
If this is the only combat encounter for the day, the party might not break a sweat. I would definitely recommend skeleton mobs, or other creepy-weird things helping them out. Stone Cursed, Boneless and Quickling all pair well with weird magic, and might add some different flavor.
Quicklings, I only use them to harass/hinder. Pranks like stealing a component pouch, or quiver. Maybe tie the archer's boots together. Unbuckle a shield. I limit the prank to one turn, but that result could swing a battle, use sparingly.
Good luck with this, I love a good hag battle. Chicken-footed-hut and all!
Ho-ly shit the Quickling is going to be fun for me and annoying for my party
Going to piggyback on this thread if that's OK. I've been designing a sea hag coven encounter for approx. lvl 4-6 characters and didn't think they were high enough CR even with the coven so I came up with some lair actions for their sea cave to bump them up. But i wasn't sure if lair actions are only meant to be for really serious monsters? Are hags too low in the CR rankings to get them? My thinking was that any bad guy who has a "base" and is as cunning as a hag would have some sort of magic or traps set up? Maybe in the OP's example something for their cottage like animated candy canes or the oven blasting out fire?
Check out the lair actions in VGtM in the Hags: Dark Sisterhood. There are some lair and regional examples for you to pattern yours after.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Going to piggyback on this thread if that's OK. I've been designing a sea hag coven encounter for approx. lvl 4-6 characters and didn't think they were high enough CR even with the coven so I came up with some lair actions for their sea cave to bump them up. But i wasn't sure if lair actions are only meant to be for really serious monsters? Are hags too low in the CR rankings to get them? My thinking was that any bad guy who has a "base" and is as cunning as a hag would have some sort of magic or traps set up? Maybe in the OP's example something for their cottage like animated candy canes or the oven blasting out fire?
There is no CR requirement for Lair or Legendary actions. Regardless of the names, they're just a way of implementing the rules.
I gave a monster Legendary actions when my PCs were level 2. The point of them is just that the monster gets to take more turns when it's the only monster (note on this: a boss should have one legendary per party member, whatever it says in the stat block - the stats assume a party of 4, hence 3 legendary actions. If you have 6 players, multiply the monster hit points by 1.5 and give it 5 legendary actions).
Lair actions are just a way of producing different environmental effects each turn. So brew up some lair actions and let the Hag be more dangerous in its lair!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Hey...running a one shot with a few friends. Kind of a Hansel and Gretel thing. I'm thinking two Hags at some point about 13 years ago kidnapped and ate a child, birthed them and returned them.
The heroes will run into the distraught mother and want to help, yada yada yada...
So I'm going to break the rule and have two Green Coven Hags and just say since the third one is hours away from transforming, they get the Coven spells
The party is six level 5 players and I'm worried about the power of some of the spells the Hags have access to. Eyebite is a sixth level spell. Now, I get the spell save is 13, but that's a powerful spell for a group of level 5 adventurers. Polymorph and Phantasmal Killer aren't as bad...players can cast them at level 7 or so, but I just want to make sure that I'm not throwing something at the group that they can't handle? If I were to just do the Hags, yea, their concentration would break due to action economy and the dice gods, but I also was going to have the bones of a few children (skeletons) rise up. Maybe 3-4
Maybe as an alternative I should do 1 night hag (coven variant) and just have it be two daughters were kidnapped. This way there is only 1 powerful spell caster
The encounter builder classes it as a hard encounter with the 4 skeleton variant, which doesn't sound to OP to me aspechially as it's the showdown set piece.
I'd probably worry if the group has means to revivify just incase a PC does go down... certainly adds to the drama and memorability of an encounter
not sure if that's particularly helpful, with 6 players I'm thinking it shouldn't be a problem but that said I find it difficult to judge if something's going to be to hard and over worry about it but in the end if it does go off the rails you can always adjust things on the fly.
tobe honest I just found your post rather interesting and would really like know what you decide on and hear how it went :o
wishing you all the best
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
Thanks!
I tweaked the some. Instead of two green Hags I went with *one* Night Hag. I think the potential for two high level concentration spells was a bit too worrisome and instead of it being one daughter kidnapped it will be two so she still gets the coven spells.
Added 2 ghasts, 1 skeleton and 2 crawling claws as cannon fodder
Encounter builder has it as hard...very close to deadly, but I feel pretty good about it.
At level 5, action economy will play a heavy role in this combat encounter. Melee starts getting Extra Attack, each of 6 PCs gets a bonus action per turn, the party can potentially focus fire on one hag and kill it round one. That probability might increase, initiative dependent.
Check out Keith Ammann's Hag Article, I found it insightful.
If this is the only combat encounter for the day, the party might not break a sweat. I would definitely recommend skeleton mobs, or other creepy-weird things helping them out. Stone Cursed, Boneless and Quickling all pair well with weird magic, and might add some different flavor.
Quicklings, I only use them to harass/hinder. Pranks like stealing a component pouch, or quiver. Maybe tie the archer's boots together. Unbuckle a shield. I limit the prank to one turn, but that result could swing a battle, use sparingly.
Good luck with this, I love a good hag battle. Chicken-footed-hut and all!
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Going to be three encounters and due to the time sensitivity of this (the twins will fully transform into Hags at midnight) they'll get *one* short rest
First two are rated medium...last one is rated hard
Definitely will read the article, thanks!
I'd say that depending on the Initiative roll, this is likely to be a cake walk or a massacre.
Hags have decent enough AC and their hit points are actually pretty good for a CR5 creature. They can take a few hits, but the main issue is that if the Hags win initiative then this could happen if you play the Hags at max effect:
Eyebite is extremely weak for a level 6 spell. It's vastly weaker than Hold Person cast at 6th level. It's unlikely the hag will maintain concentration to get a second use of it. However, the Hags have Hold Person! If they win Initiative, then the first hag casts Hold Person on 5 of the opposing party using the 6th level spell slot. The 2nd Hag then casts Hold Person using the 5th level slot, targeting everyone who failed their save and additionally using it on some who didn't. Most characters will then be held, and some will have 2 instances of the spell. Most of the players miss their turns while the hags wail on them, and the chances of breaking concentration are seriously reduced. Being paralysed means they players can't move, take actions, and melee hits are all critical hits. And if enough PCs escape or they lose Concentration, just recast it with the next 5th and the 4th levels spell slots.
Both Hags then also have access to counterspell so you should be locking down any major spells that might fly their way for at least the first 2 turns of combat, so spellcasters will be pretty useless against them.
However. You're probably rolling 1 Initiative for the Hags, maximum 2, so it's likely that they won't be top of the round. In that case, one of the hags could well just die to a slew of non-spell attacks if you've got a melee heavy party. Unless they lock the PCs down they'll just get nuked pretty fast. If you split initiative for the hags, they're even less likely to be able to do the double Hold Person attack, and the first may lose Concentration before the affected PCs take a turn. If that happens, then Hold Person didn't actually do anything, but if you target the PCs who've not had a turn yet or they happen to fail saves, then you're back into the double-hold position again.
This was a long post to say: it's probably best not to let them use Hold Person against PCs at this level as they might not be sturdy enough to take the hits.
I don't think you should worry about them being too powerful. Hags are the kind of enemy where the party losing (a tpk) doesn't necessarily mean death, they can be reasoned with and they prefer to capture and play with people over kill. They're also great creatures to have players know are around because they give the option of fey deals if they get stuck which is a great out for big problems because it doesn't come cheap. I say make combat with them difficult, consider giving them traps in their house to use like a box full of crawling claws or poison gases that knock players unconscious. The players going down or getting trapped will likely only increase the fun of this kind of enemy as it opens up a good chance for negotiations and a victory beyond just smashing some skulls.
Personally I love the tactic above where they hold person the entire party, what a way to start a conversation. Then they can give the gut punch of explaining the kid is already dead and was replaced by a hag changeling.
that's a super article Keith Ammann's Hag Article @Kaavel thanks for sharing...
having perused it I'm thinking your original 2 Green Hag (Coven Variant) +hench monsters scenario CynnamonV would be a more interesting end fight, but if you do go with 1 Night Hag (Coven Variant) then you should probably incorporate the Night Hag (Coven Variant) Nightmare Haunting into the story maybe the children's father getting him to suspect and persecute some other villagers for his children's abduction?
whatever you end up doing would be super interested to hear how it turns out
wishing you all the best
“It cannot be seen, cannot be felt, Cannot be heard, cannot be smelt, It lies behind stars and under hills, And empty holes it fills, It comes first and follows after, Ends life, kills laughter.” J.R.R. Tolkien, The Hobbit, or There and Back Again
His website and book are full of good tactics to apply. He's even done a revisit after VGtM came out to incorporate the "Grandmother Hags" and lair actions and regional effects.
Using the tactics that are outlined in his books/articles makes creatures *feel* like they hit harder than they do. At least it seems that way. They're definitely more fun to play.
Regardless, good luck. I hope to hear how this turns out!
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Ho-ly shit the Quickling is going to be fun for me and annoying for my party
Going to piggyback on this thread if that's OK. I've been designing a sea hag coven encounter for approx. lvl 4-6 characters and didn't think they were high enough CR even with the coven so I came up with some lair actions for their sea cave to bump them up. But i wasn't sure if lair actions are only meant to be for really serious monsters? Are hags too low in the CR rankings to get them? My thinking was that any bad guy who has a "base" and is as cunning as a hag would have some sort of magic or traps set up? Maybe in the OP's example something for their cottage like animated candy canes or the oven blasting out fire?
Check out the lair actions in VGtM in the Hags: Dark Sisterhood. There are some lair and regional examples for you to pattern yours after.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
There is no CR requirement for Lair or Legendary actions. Regardless of the names, they're just a way of implementing the rules.
I gave a monster Legendary actions when my PCs were level 2. The point of them is just that the monster gets to take more turns when it's the only monster (note on this: a boss should have one legendary per party member, whatever it says in the stat block - the stats assume a party of 4, hence 3 legendary actions. If you have 6 players, multiply the monster hit points by 1.5 and give it 5 legendary actions).
Lair actions are just a way of producing different environmental effects each turn. So brew up some lair actions and let the Hag be more dangerous in its lair!