I DM'ed "The Shackled City" for four players over an eight-year period using 3.5. I am now re-running it for a different group, but converting it to 5e.
Anyhow, if anyone has ever DM'ed or played this campaign, you would likely agree that the NPCs are complex and, often, well-thought-out. The problem is that converting a 6th level rogue/assassin from 3.5 to something equivalent in 5e (at 6th-level) doesn't translate to the same type of challenge. In fact, in 3.5, the party of four third-level characters was faced with that 6th level assassin rogue, and if they picked a fight with her, she would have cleaned their clocks. In 5e (4 characters at level 3), I was seriously thinking, "I hope the PCs don't fight her, because they will mop the floor with her."
It's not that 5e characters of equivalent level are weaker than their counterparts in 3.5. Instead, it's a numbers game - superior numbers in 5e provide a more drastic effect on encounters than in 3.5.
Anyhow, can anyone give me advice on how to convert the very complex characters in that campaign (or any in 3.5) to their 5e equivalents? I would rather not use a reskin of something from the MM.
You have identified the problem accurately, which means you are close to the solution. It is a numbers game. Action economy has a huge effect in 5e. So that's where to make the fix. Lair Actions and Legendary Actions will be what you're looking for. A 6th level assassin (who doesn't get the drop on the PCs) will be a much more equal opponent if they can take an action after each of the character's actions. Might also help in porting over some of the mechanical complexity...
I am now struggling with DnD Beyond...I have already paid for a subscription, I have already paid a ridiculous amount of money to WOTC to buy access to all the books I have already bought in physcial hardback form...and now I find that I cannot even creat a 5th Edition Fire Giant (Ti'irok from Chapter 10 SC) in my attempt to transition to using DnD Beyond for gaming.
I have downloaded, or at least I thought I had, homebrew demodands...but I cannot find them in my characters - I need some help and support from WOTC/DnDB - is there any way to do this other than posting like this?
I have converted chapters 1 through 3 and 6 and 7 over to 5th successfully. I recently switched to using GiffyGlyph's Monster Maker to create bad guys and this has proven to be much better than the crap method offered by WoTC.
GiffyGlyph (the creator of the Monster Maker) has been MIA for the past 15 months, so you need to create everything by hand. I have coded most of it into a Google Sheet but it is not really ready for primetime. Is there a bad guy you are focusing on?
Campaign started in early 2018 so 5 years so far...I am planning Chapter 10 to be the finale as uncertain if 11 and 12 will make sense if the Cagewrights base is defeated...
I see what you mean with GiffyGlyph - so far I have found farastus, kelubars and shators and improvised flamewardens and Ti'irok the Fire Giant. Now trying to prepare Moltenwing the dragon but lots to do...
Toughest are the Cagewrights themselves who are too numerous and have mostly rather silly unpronouncable and forgetable names...
I loved SC back in the day. I actually wrote an side quest for it called 'The Demonskar Ball'. The cuty itsself is a great concept. Fell away as the path advanced though. Trying to get the party to give a rats arse about these 'Cagewrights' where there has been little to no foreshadowing of them earlier in the campaign, was a bridge too far. Just too many villains.
Did you post your Demonskar Ball side quest to RPGenius? This is my third time DMing this campaign and I heavily used that side quest. My players loved it. I have actually included it in my 5e conversion on DMsGuild.
Actually, I think you did post on their as DelvesDeep.
Did you post your Demonskar Ball side quest to RPGenius? This is my third time DMing this campaign and I heavily used that side quest. My players loved it. I have actually included it in my 5e conversion on DMsGuild.
Actually, I think you did post on their as DelvesDeep.
Yes that was me. I wrote some other ideas and side quests too for it but the 'Demonskar Ball' was by far the most popular. I think it was the 'Bradly-Dipinshire's' that did it! ;)
I'll just send you the PDF as it stands at this moment. The one on DMsGuild is being modified next month to include all new creatures designed from GiffyGlyph's Monster Maker. They are much better level-per-level matches than what WotC provides. Hell, skulks in 5e are outright killers for a 1st-level party, but somehow are CR 1/2 in 5e - terrible design...
I remember that Campaing, didnt got to finish it myself but I think the remaining party did fought adimarchus in carceri if I recall (My character ended as an NPC, dont know if she participated). Also my original character died so I ended up rolling one of the NPCs ,(almost campaing rule, so as to not introduce random guys every time, but use the current NPCs), but it was one of the girl slaves in the module from the underdark that one of the party managed to rescue-> Shellen (she had high int so, went wizard).
Our Dm was one of the grittiest and micromanager dms I played with (and optimize the shit out of everything)... all battles were really deadly by desing (even more than what the module recomends or has). It often derailed in long email chains discussing some rules until both parties where satisfied (using some friends not playing as neutral rules lawyers), but his style of DMing has always being like that (as other people had told me).
Anyhow... 3.5 is a very different beast than 5e, thanks to bounded accuracy, lvls mean less for enemies... so for most of the NPCs you might want to up the Lvls/HP or give some interesting abilities/features because of how CR and action economy works (like using legendary actions and legendary resistances for special NPCs or enemies).
If i remember correctly that low-level rogue/assassin is Jill, who can be a mayor NPC depending on how the party works around her. Or a pest for the party in the right scenario. Ill Recomend that she always has many mooks with her in possible combat escenarios, if you find that she is a little "easy", maybe give her more HP (and HD)... and play her like a very maneuverable rogue, moving about the battlefield to get that sneak attack and/or just hiding and escaping to fight another day, Cauldron is a very big city after all, using the mooks to help her get away. As an assassin, she will always want to be in control or surprise the party if she really wants to harm them.
At most I remember her just being annoying to deal with, but if played right could be a very good ally. I cannot help you more, because the campaing went somewhat different because of decisions our party made, and how the DM managed the consequences of every action or how he thought and NPC will actually do (We went 100% paranoid after the first few chapters... we could not trust anyone at all, except the truest goody npcs, and even then, we barely could trust them).
I Remember the Skulks and dark creepers at first lvl... we mapped that dungeon fairly slowly... square by square, and in combat we literally just runned around until we "bump" into something and everyone attacked that square... we survived because of luck. Its more a tactical combat, than all around... and numbers always do the deal went played right.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I DM'ed "The Shackled City" for four players over an eight-year period using 3.5. I am now re-running it for a different group, but converting it to 5e.
Anyhow, if anyone has ever DM'ed or played this campaign, you would likely agree that the NPCs are complex and, often, well-thought-out. The problem is that converting a 6th level rogue/assassin from 3.5 to something equivalent in 5e (at 6th-level) doesn't translate to the same type of challenge. In fact, in 3.5, the party of four third-level characters was faced with that 6th level assassin rogue, and if they picked a fight with her, she would have cleaned their clocks. In 5e (4 characters at level 3), I was seriously thinking, "I hope the PCs don't fight her, because they will mop the floor with her."
It's not that 5e characters of equivalent level are weaker than their counterparts in 3.5. Instead, it's a numbers game - superior numbers in 5e provide a more drastic effect on encounters than in 3.5.
Anyhow, can anyone give me advice on how to convert the very complex characters in that campaign (or any in 3.5) to their 5e equivalents? I would rather not use a reskin of something from the MM.
I am having the same problem with my SC campaign.
Cannot (yet) find a simple solution that takes up luttle DM prep time...
Still looking
You have identified the problem accurately, which means you are close to the solution. It is a numbers game. Action economy has a huge effect in 5e. So that's where to make the fix. Lair Actions and Legendary Actions will be what you're looking for. A 6th level assassin (who doesn't get the drop on the PCs) will be a much more equal opponent if they can take an action after each of the character's actions. Might also help in porting over some of the mechanical complexity...
Thank for your comment - trying to understand it.
I am now struggling with DnD Beyond...I have already paid for a subscription, I have already paid a ridiculous amount of money to WOTC to buy access to all the books I have already bought in physcial hardback form...and now I find that I cannot even creat a 5th Edition Fire Giant (Ti'irok from Chapter 10 SC) in my attempt to transition to using DnD Beyond for gaming.
I have downloaded, or at least I thought I had, homebrew demodands...but I cannot find them in my characters - I need some help and support from WOTC/DnDB - is there any way to do this other than posting like this?
I have converted chapters 1 through 3 and 6 and 7 over to 5th successfully. I recently switched to using GiffyGlyph's Monster Maker to create bad guys and this has proven to be much better than the crap method offered by WoTC.
Thanks for your reply - sounds like I need to check that one ot.
I have winged it so far, but now preparing for Chapter 10 and it is is taking so much time...
How long have you been running the campaign? We are starting our fourth year of gameplay.
GiffyGlyph (the creator of the Monster Maker) has been MIA for the past 15 months, so you need to create everything by hand. I have coded most of it into a Google Sheet but it is not really ready for primetime. Is there a bad guy you are focusing on?
Campaign started in early 2018 so 5 years so far...I am planning Chapter 10 to be the finale as uncertain if 11 and 12 will make sense if the Cagewrights base is defeated...
I see what you mean with GiffyGlyph - so far I have found farastus, kelubars and shators and improvised flamewardens and Ti'irok the Fire Giant. Now trying to prepare Moltenwing the dragon but lots to do...
Toughest are the Cagewrights themselves who are too numerous and have mostly rather silly unpronouncable and forgetable names...
I loved SC back in the day. I actually wrote an side quest for it called 'The Demonskar Ball'. The cuty itsself is a great concept. Fell away as the path advanced though. Trying to get the party to give a rats arse about these 'Cagewrights' where there has been little to no foreshadowing of them earlier in the campaign, was a bridge too far. Just too many villains.
Good luck with the conversion though
Did you post your Demonskar Ball side quest to RPGenius? This is my third time DMing this campaign and I heavily used that side quest. My players loved it. I have actually included it in my 5e conversion on DMsGuild.
Actually, I think you did post on their as DelvesDeep.
Yes that was me. I wrote some other ideas and side quests too for it but the 'Demonskar Ball' was by far the most popular. I think it was the 'Bradly-Dipinshire's' that did it! ;)
I will make sure and update the PDF on DMsGuild to give you credit.
Cheers mate. I'll pop over to DmsGuild to have a look. I have some other docs I could give you if you like too.
I'll just send you the PDF as it stands at this moment. The one on DMsGuild is being modified next month to include all new creatures designed from GiffyGlyph's Monster Maker. They are much better level-per-level matches than what WotC provides. Hell, skulks in 5e are outright killers for a 1st-level party, but somehow are CR 1/2 in 5e - terrible design...
I remember that Campaing, didnt got to finish it myself but I think the remaining party did fought adimarchus in carceri if I recall (My character ended as an NPC, dont know if she participated). Also my original character died so I ended up rolling one of the NPCs ,(almost campaing rule, so as to not introduce random guys every time, but use the current NPCs), but it was one of the girl slaves in the module from the underdark that one of the party managed to rescue-> Shellen (she had high int so, went wizard).
Our Dm was one of the grittiest and micromanager dms I played with (and optimize the shit out of everything)... all battles were really deadly by desing (even more than what the module recomends or has). It often derailed in long email chains discussing some rules until both parties where satisfied (using some friends not playing as neutral rules lawyers), but his style of DMing has always being like that (as other people had told me).
Anyhow...
3.5 is a very different beast than 5e, thanks to bounded accuracy, lvls mean less for enemies... so for most of the NPCs you might want to up the Lvls/HP or give some interesting abilities/features because of how CR and action economy works (like using legendary actions and legendary resistances for special NPCs or enemies).
If i remember correctly that low-level rogue/assassin is Jill, who can be a mayor NPC depending on how the party works around her. Or a pest for the party in the right scenario. Ill Recomend that she always has many mooks with her in possible combat escenarios, if you find that she is a little "easy", maybe give her more HP (and HD)... and play her like a very maneuverable rogue, moving about the battlefield to get that sneak attack and/or just hiding and escaping to fight another day, Cauldron is a very big city after all, using the mooks to help her get away. As an assassin, she will always want to be in control or surprise the party if she really wants to harm them.
At most I remember her just being annoying to deal with, but if played right could be a very good ally.
I cannot help you more, because the campaing went somewhat different because of decisions our party made, and how the DM managed the consequences of every action or how he thought and NPC will actually do (We went 100% paranoid after the first few chapters... we could not trust anyone at all, except the truest goody npcs, and even then, we barely could trust them).
I Remember the Skulks and dark creepers at first lvl... we mapped that dungeon fairly slowly... square by square, and in combat we literally just runned around until we "bump" into something and everyone attacked that square... we survived because of luck. Its more a tactical combat, than all around... and numbers always do the deal went played right.