Long story short, In my campaign, I have a rather quiet, but amazingly intelligent player who isn't engaging well because he feels his Grave Cleric character isn't relevant. I can open almost any door at this point, and want to make his play experience better for him. I'd like to do more than just throwing some zombies and vampires into the world (I've done that, and it hasn't helped enough). I would love feedback from anyone who has had a Crave cleric in their world: What worked really well for them? What sort of events/encounters gave them moments to shine? What did they find that they could do that no other PC could do? TIA!!
Grave Clerics are very useful, but really shine when the party frequently rides the edge of death.
When they heal a character who is at 0 hp, their dice values are maximized.
With the ability to cast Spare the Dying at range, as a bonus action, they could be saving NPCs left and right in a large scale conflict.
Path to the Grave gives the target damage vulnerability. If they time that to coincide with the Rogue's Sneak Attack, that can result in a crazy amount of damage.
etc...
If your player isn't feeling relevant, you may need to step up the combat difficulty and give your campaign more lethality for both the PCs and the NPCs.
Aside from that, some players aren't good at keeping track of their own abilities. They feel underwhelmed because they are oblivious to their opportunity for the spotlight.
Hi! I haven't DM'd for a grave cleric, but I played one up to level 20, so I can tell you what I found appealing about it, and maybe that'll help. It would help to know what level your cleric is, and the general set up of the rest of the party, but I'll do what I can. First of all, I love playing support characters. I'm never the face of the party. I have found over the years that most people want to be the Main Character and do the haggling and strike the killing blow, and that's great. But every group needs at least one person whose primary responsibility is keeping everyone else alive. Having that reliable foundation gives the other players greater confidence to attempt ever more dangerous schemes. Okay, so, first I'll run through the class abilities, and then I'll run through some situational analysis.
Level 1, Circle of mortality. This is great! Whether the party is low level and thus can be one-shotted or two-shotted, or whether you're Tier Four and getting hit with dragon's breath every other round, being able to stabilize someone or pop someone back up from zero hp quickly and reliably is a MASSIVE boon.
Level 1, Eyes of the grave. Meh. No big deal. By the time you're that close to undead, the rogue probably already spotted them.
Level 2, Turn undead. Yeah, this is standard cleric work. It may seem trite sometimes. But it's a great way to clear out the trash so your teammates can focus their fire on the big bad guy without having to worry about getting swarmed by zombies.
Level 2, Path to the grave. Yes! This is sweet! Granted, you can only do this a few times a day, but it's like setting up a volleyball shot so the next player can spike it! Tell your player to be aware of his initiative order. Tell him to Hold His Action with Path to the Grave until just before the rogue does a sneak attack, or just before the paladin does a smite. Drop that curse just in time to set up that next big hit, and watch that sneak attack or that divine smite do DOUBLE DAMAGE! Oh, and if they crit that attack good lord you're gonna be killing tarrasques!!! It's a great feeling being part of the teamwork like that. That's a rush! So help the player realize the massive potential of that ability.
Level 6, Sentinel at death's door. This is a massive game changer! Being able to break a crit has saved my teammates lives more than a few times. And at higher tiers of play, crits often do more than just double damage, they may involve getting grappled or stunned or knocked prone. So being able to avoid that fate means your teammates stay up longer, AND you won't have to burn all your spell slots trying to heal from a crit, because it never happened!
Level 8, Potent spellcasting. Meh. Whatever.
Level 10, Divine intervention. Okay, this is when life starts to get interesting. This ability has a very low chance of success, but you can attempt it every day (or week when it works). When this roll works it provides a great opportunity for you and your cleric to do a little 1-on-1 focused role playing. I mean, he's literally summoning aid directly from the deity itself! Help your cleric decide what the party needs and how the deity's avatar or servant (deva, etc) can help. Maybe the cleric is stuck somewhere and the deity sends a pegasus to give him a lift. Maybe the party is lost and suddenly the cleric sees a light shining on the horizon in a certain direction. Maybe it's been a long fight and you're out of spell slots and the paladin is down and the wizard with 3 hp left is only halfway through forming the teleportation circle and the enemy is inbound. On the rare occasion that D.I. works it's a great chance to give your quiet little cleric a moment to really shine.
Level 17, Keeper of souls. This is huge. It's almost unfair to give one player this much power. Every time an enemy dies you get to use their death to heal your party. And you can do it every round, all day long, as often as you want! If the party is fighting just the one BBEG this sucks, but when your party is wading through hordes of enemies LOL you become a g*ddamn GOD of healing!
But those are just numbers. Most of that stuff is combat stuff. There's more to life than combat. After all, this is a ROLE PLAYING game, not a combat game. What IS a grave cleric? What do they stand for? How do they fit into society as a whole? Well, in most societies a grave cleric is someone who stands on the border between life and death. You can turn undead away, but how often does the town get attacked by zombies? Grave clerics also care for the dead and offer services of protection and remembrance for them and those they have left behind. If the party has some downtime in a town or city the grave cleric should spend time volunteering at the cemetery cleaning gravestones and planting flowers and consoling those who are visiting their fallen loved ones. He should be checking in at the local temple offering to provide funeral services to anyone who needs them and lighting candles to those he has lost. He could spend time counseling people to help prepare them for the inevitable loss of an elderly or sick loved one. A grave cleric is the one who stands at the doorway, helping others with their transition from this world to the next. A bodhisattva, or a psychopomp, if you will. When that character is in a town or city, be sure to occasionally have someone recognize them by their emblem or whatever and to ask them for relevant help. Make the player feel that the game world sees him and recognizes him and needs him. Ask your player to explore what that role and that responsibility means, not just to those people, but to the character.
Honestly, in the several years since I played my grave cleric (and this is going to sound weird) exploring the depths of that character has completely changed the way I view my own mortality. Seriously. A big gruff white dragonborn with an 8 intelligence and a bottomless stomach for pancakes has changed how I understand life and death. If your player is the quiet intelligent type, then he should be spending as much time outside of game time exploring his character and figuring out what makes that character tick than he spends playing at the table. Understanding the role of the grave cleric won't just make him a better player, it'll make him a better person.
Thank you for attending my Ted Talk. Parking will not be validated.
That's a really well rounded party. And level 6 is when you first start to really feel the power. You've got Revivify, and you're standing in the center of melee taking hits and breaking crits. Yeah, grave cleric is bonkers powerful. Just tell the player to remember to look beyond the combat stats and explore the role-playing aspects of the domain. Really embody the character. He'll be fine.
Could you be more specific about what you mean when you say "not relevant?" If I was the cleric of the party you just described I would feel very relevant.
First of all this player should easily have the highest wisdom score, and with proficiency in as many wisdom skills as possible (which they should have too) can play the wise-man role and scrutinize all npcs with insight and keep and eye out for trouble with the best perception check. Also very relevant in situations involving animals or survival.
As far as combat goes I can't see how cleric spells would go amiss rounding out that party. I can't comment much on Grave cleric in particular (war is my go to). Is grave bad or something?
Lots of good answers already. I would also maybe ask the player why they chose the grave domain. Also think about how you've played your clerics relationship to their god so far. If your world is one where the gods sometimes directly interact with people, it may be time to have such an interaction. If you have a world were the relationship with deities is mostly faith based there are other ways you could show that your cleric is on the right path.
Have the party come to a town where people are dying of a mysterious illness. The cleric can heal many of them, but that's only a temporary solution. People will keep getting sick if the source isn't found. Then depending on how the grave cleric is built, have their be medicine or nature checks to help determine what is causing the sickness. Maybe there are sacred texts that deal with the cause of the sickness, or old legends that a religion check might uncover, and so on. Maybe the sickness is caused by some mythic beast that isn't undead, but it still in some way an emery to the clerics god.
An update: We played again today, and I discretely used a lot of input from this thread. My Grave Cleric was quite a bit more engaged and influential, and the player had a much better time. I thank all of you greatly for the input- it helped quite a bit!
Awesome to hear community advice enhanced your game. THIS is why I love these forums. I am not DMing the campaign, but we have a Grave Cleric in our group and she was feeling iffy for a while, so the DM started having more Crits show up (not sure if he was spoofing or not) and she managed to drop a 3rd level Cure Wounds to a member face down in the dirt to GREAT effect. As a Cleric period, she's thrown Heal a couple times, surprising us and the DM with how easily she just UNdid all the monster's hard work lol.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
As with many situations, communication is the key. WHY do they feel irrelevant in the game? Is it because the rest of the party does bigger damage numbers? Are they wading through enemies without the need for the Cleric's abilities? Try to pin down the problem. You can't fix it if you don't know what's broken.
If they are feeling truly limited as previous posters stated step up combat to hurt others members. Spells are great as they often do damage even with a save and AC isn't important. The only other option that may not have been discussed is multiclass to rogue and stay that for the remainder. Take assassination spec and start trashing people in one hit. Very deadly combo with a surprise attack.
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Long story short, In my campaign, I have a rather quiet, but amazingly intelligent player who isn't engaging well because he feels his Grave Cleric character isn't relevant. I can open almost any door at this point, and want to make his play experience better for him. I'd like to do more than just throwing some zombies and vampires into the world (I've done that, and it hasn't helped enough). I would love feedback from anyone who has had a Crave cleric in their world: What worked really well for them? What sort of events/encounters gave them moments to shine? What did they find that they could do that no other PC could do? TIA!!
Grave Clerics are very useful, but really shine when the party frequently rides the edge of death.
When they heal a character who is at 0 hp, their dice values are maximized.
With the ability to cast Spare the Dying at range, as a bonus action, they could be saving NPCs left and right in a large scale conflict.
Path to the Grave gives the target damage vulnerability. If they time that to coincide with the Rogue's Sneak Attack, that can result in a crazy amount of damage.
etc...
If your player isn't feeling relevant, you may need to step up the combat difficulty and give your campaign more lethality for both the PCs and the NPCs.
Aside from that, some players aren't good at keeping track of their own abilities. They feel underwhelmed because they are oblivious to their opportunity for the spotlight.
Hi! I haven't DM'd for a grave cleric, but I played one up to level 20, so I can tell you what I found appealing about it, and maybe that'll help. It would help to know what level your cleric is, and the general set up of the rest of the party, but I'll do what I can. First of all, I love playing support characters. I'm never the face of the party. I have found over the years that most people want to be the Main Character and do the haggling and strike the killing blow, and that's great. But every group needs at least one person whose primary responsibility is keeping everyone else alive. Having that reliable foundation gives the other players greater confidence to attempt ever more dangerous schemes. Okay, so, first I'll run through the class abilities, and then I'll run through some situational analysis.
Level 1, Circle of mortality. This is great! Whether the party is low level and thus can be one-shotted or two-shotted, or whether you're Tier Four and getting hit with dragon's breath every other round, being able to stabilize someone or pop someone back up from zero hp quickly and reliably is a MASSIVE boon.
Level 1, Eyes of the grave. Meh. No big deal. By the time you're that close to undead, the rogue probably already spotted them.
Level 2, Turn undead. Yeah, this is standard cleric work. It may seem trite sometimes. But it's a great way to clear out the trash so your teammates can focus their fire on the big bad guy without having to worry about getting swarmed by zombies.
Level 2, Path to the grave. Yes! This is sweet! Granted, you can only do this a few times a day, but it's like setting up a volleyball shot so the next player can spike it! Tell your player to be aware of his initiative order. Tell him to Hold His Action with Path to the Grave until just before the rogue does a sneak attack, or just before the paladin does a smite. Drop that curse just in time to set up that next big hit, and watch that sneak attack or that divine smite do DOUBLE DAMAGE! Oh, and if they crit that attack good lord you're gonna be killing tarrasques!!! It's a great feeling being part of the teamwork like that. That's a rush! So help the player realize the massive potential of that ability.
Level 6, Sentinel at death's door. This is a massive game changer! Being able to break a crit has saved my teammates lives more than a few times. And at higher tiers of play, crits often do more than just double damage, they may involve getting grappled or stunned or knocked prone. So being able to avoid that fate means your teammates stay up longer, AND you won't have to burn all your spell slots trying to heal from a crit, because it never happened!
Level 8, Potent spellcasting. Meh. Whatever.
Level 10, Divine intervention. Okay, this is when life starts to get interesting. This ability has a very low chance of success, but you can attempt it every day (or week when it works). When this roll works it provides a great opportunity for you and your cleric to do a little 1-on-1 focused role playing. I mean, he's literally summoning aid directly from the deity itself! Help your cleric decide what the party needs and how the deity's avatar or servant (deva, etc) can help. Maybe the cleric is stuck somewhere and the deity sends a pegasus to give him a lift. Maybe the party is lost and suddenly the cleric sees a light shining on the horizon in a certain direction. Maybe it's been a long fight and you're out of spell slots and the paladin is down and the wizard with 3 hp left is only halfway through forming the teleportation circle and the enemy is inbound. On the rare occasion that D.I. works it's a great chance to give your quiet little cleric a moment to really shine.
Level 17, Keeper of souls. This is huge. It's almost unfair to give one player this much power. Every time an enemy dies you get to use their death to heal your party. And you can do it every round, all day long, as often as you want! If the party is fighting just the one BBEG this sucks, but when your party is wading through hordes of enemies LOL you become a g*ddamn GOD of healing!
But those are just numbers. Most of that stuff is combat stuff. There's more to life than combat. After all, this is a ROLE PLAYING game, not a combat game. What IS a grave cleric? What do they stand for? How do they fit into society as a whole? Well, in most societies a grave cleric is someone who stands on the border between life and death. You can turn undead away, but how often does the town get attacked by zombies? Grave clerics also care for the dead and offer services of protection and remembrance for them and those they have left behind. If the party has some downtime in a town or city the grave cleric should spend time volunteering at the cemetery cleaning gravestones and planting flowers and consoling those who are visiting their fallen loved ones. He should be checking in at the local temple offering to provide funeral services to anyone who needs them and lighting candles to those he has lost. He could spend time counseling people to help prepare them for the inevitable loss of an elderly or sick loved one. A grave cleric is the one who stands at the doorway, helping others with their transition from this world to the next. A bodhisattva, or a psychopomp, if you will. When that character is in a town or city, be sure to occasionally have someone recognize them by their emblem or whatever and to ask them for relevant help. Make the player feel that the game world sees him and recognizes him and needs him. Ask your player to explore what that role and that responsibility means, not just to those people, but to the character.
Honestly, in the several years since I played my grave cleric (and this is going to sound weird) exploring the depths of that character has completely changed the way I view my own mortality. Seriously. A big gruff white dragonborn with an 8 intelligence and a bottomless stomach for pancakes has changed how I understand life and death. If your player is the quiet intelligent type, then he should be spending as much time outside of game time exploring his character and figuring out what makes that character tick than he spends playing at the table. Understanding the role of the grave cleric won't just make him a better player, it'll make him a better person.
Thank you for attending my Ted Talk. Parking will not be validated.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
To add a bit of information- the party just levelled up to level 6. The other party members are a Ranger, a Rogue, A wizard and a Fighter.
And, these responses are great. I am very grateful for the input.
That's a really well rounded party. And level 6 is when you first start to really feel the power. You've got Revivify, and you're standing in the center of melee taking hits and breaking crits. Yeah, grave cleric is bonkers powerful. Just tell the player to remember to look beyond the combat stats and explore the role-playing aspects of the domain. Really embody the character. He'll be fine.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
Could you be more specific about what you mean when you say "not relevant?" If I was the cleric of the party you just described I would feel very relevant.
First of all this player should easily have the highest wisdom score, and with proficiency in as many wisdom skills as possible (which they should have too) can play the wise-man role and scrutinize all npcs with insight and keep and eye out for trouble with the best perception check. Also very relevant in situations involving animals or survival.
As far as combat goes I can't see how cleric spells would go amiss rounding out that party. I can't comment much on Grave cleric in particular (war is my go to). Is grave bad or something?
Lots of good answers already. I would also maybe ask the player why they chose the grave domain. Also think about how you've played your clerics relationship to their god so far. If your world is one where the gods sometimes directly interact with people, it may be time to have such an interaction. If you have a world were the relationship with deities is mostly faith based there are other ways you could show that your cleric is on the right path.
Have the party come to a town where people are dying of a mysterious illness. The cleric can heal many of them, but that's only a temporary solution. People will keep getting sick if the source isn't found. Then depending on how the grave cleric is built, have their be medicine or nature checks to help determine what is causing the sickness. Maybe there are sacred texts that deal with the cause of the sickness, or old legends that a religion check might uncover, and so on. Maybe the sickness is caused by some mythic beast that isn't undead, but it still in some way an emery to the clerics god.
An update: We played again today, and I discretely used a lot of input from this thread. My Grave Cleric was quite a bit more engaged and influential, and the player had a much better time. I thank all of you greatly for the input- it helped quite a bit!
Awesome!
It's always great to see the community having a positive influence.
Love this, thank you so much for inspiring me!
Awesome to hear community advice enhanced your game. THIS is why I love these forums. I am not DMing the campaign, but we have a Grave Cleric in our group and she was feeling iffy for a while, so the DM started having more Crits show up (not sure if he was spoofing or not) and she managed to drop a 3rd level Cure Wounds to a member face down in the dirt to GREAT effect. As a Cleric period, she's thrown Heal a couple times, surprising us and the DM with how easily she just UNdid all the monster's hard work lol.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
As with many situations, communication is the key. WHY do they feel irrelevant in the game? Is it because the rest of the party does bigger damage numbers? Are they wading through enemies without the need for the Cleric's abilities? Try to pin down the problem. You can't fix it if you don't know what's broken.
If they are feeling truly limited as previous posters stated step up combat to hurt others members. Spells are great as they often do damage even with a save and AC isn't important. The only other option that may not have been discussed is multiclass to rogue and stay that for the remainder. Take assassination spec and start trashing people in one hit. Very deadly combo with a surprise attack.