Party in SKT now own Cromm's Hold near Daggerford. DMG says 50 gp / day for fort/Outpost. (18,250/year). (Chapter 6 -- maintenance costs).
My question: how did the Cromm's not go bankrupt centuries ago? They have no tax base except lizardmen.
Let's look at the ducial keep in Daggerford (100 gp/day or 36,500/year). Daggerford has had ~500 residents in town and a total of 1,000 in the duchy though all editions. Say ~600 taxable. Soo.... 36,500/600 is a tax per person of 60gp, 8sp, 3.3cp PER PERSON!!!!!! And that does not include town walls, road maintenance, etc. Is it really about ≥600% tax rate???
We have to campaigns where players on property and the DMG rates make no sense... Am I missing something or what are other DM's doing?
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DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
I haven't done the numbers but I can say most of the economics of the DMG don't make sense in a "real" economy. This is mostly only terrible when you think a Castle costs 18,000gc/year. Does it cover how many people you employ as part of a castle? That's got to be guards, gardeners, cooking staff, servants, etc...
For me, step 1 in applying the upkeep costs listed in the game is to realize that the game writers are not economists, and acknowledge what that means, which is that they are likely coming up with numbers that work for the game in the way the game is typically played (which these do, since characters can easily afford them, but not so easily as to not feel like there might be reasons not to spend on this particular thing), and if those numbers work even slightly in a real economic sense it is by pure accident because it is incredibly unlikely to have happened even if they were trying to make it work.
Step 2 is to then not apply the rules to any situation that is not engaging those rules from the same point of view as they were written (i.e. these rules are for PCs paying expenses out of their usually sizeable holdings of loose coinage, jewels, and jewellery - they are not rules for what established pieces of the setting or NPCs have to deal with in terms of operational costs and/or taxes).
It usually works out pretty well (rarely will a player have complaint about this approach, in my experience).
figure 10% of total construction cost ,, AFTER the keep/ castle is built, for general maintenance, day to day is a bit different, figure Staff, and staff is skilled labor,, unless you use servants and slaves, then you must account for food and lodging as basic, Squallier, or modest accommodations at the least, so to figure a standard "KEEP" like in Keep on the Borderlands,, Module "B2" manned by about 250 men at arms, and a basic "KEEP" with small town contingent is going to run close to 1000 gp a day to maintain and that is on the light side of it. ! you need skilled craftsmen at all times, hunters, loggers, and the such. For More information on KEEPS and CASTLES and the politics of running them , I Suggest "THE CASTLE GUIDE" a 2 ed publication in soft cover with the Tag of DMGR2 " Dungeon Master Reference Guide #2
figure 10% of total construction cost,, just for maintenance ,, then you need the staff,, and hirelings are not cheap,, nor is the food cost to support them, see "the Castle Guide" a 2ed supplement
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Party in SKT now own Cromm's Hold near Daggerford. DMG says 50 gp / day for fort/Outpost. (18,250/year). (Chapter 6 -- maintenance costs).
My question: how did the Cromm's not go bankrupt centuries ago? They have no tax base except lizardmen.
Let's look at the ducial keep in Daggerford (100 gp/day or 36,500/year). Daggerford has had ~500 residents in town and a total of 1,000 in the duchy though all editions. Say ~600 taxable. Soo.... 36,500/600 is a tax per person of 60gp, 8sp, 3.3cp PER PERSON!!!!!! And that does not include town walls, road maintenance, etc. Is it really about ≥600% tax rate???
We have to campaigns where players on property and the DMG rates make no sense... Am I missing something or what are other DM's doing?
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
I'm going to double-check your calculations. No offense. 60.833333333333333333333333333=60.833333333333333333333333333
Well, that's certainly . . . interesting.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
I haven't done the numbers but I can say most of the economics of the DMG don't make sense in a "real" economy.
This is mostly only terrible when you think a Castle costs 18,000gc/year.
Does it cover how many people you employ as part of a castle? That's got to be guards, gardeners, cooking staff, servants, etc...
For me, step 1 in applying the upkeep costs listed in the game is to realize that the game writers are not economists, and acknowledge what that means, which is that they are likely coming up with numbers that work for the game in the way the game is typically played (which these do, since characters can easily afford them, but not so easily as to not feel like there might be reasons not to spend on this particular thing), and if those numbers work even slightly in a real economic sense it is by pure accident because it is incredibly unlikely to have happened even if they were trying to make it work.
Step 2 is to then not apply the rules to any situation that is not engaging those rules from the same point of view as they were written (i.e. these rules are for PCs paying expenses out of their usually sizeable holdings of loose coinage, jewels, and jewellery - they are not rules for what established pieces of the setting or NPCs have to deal with in terms of operational costs and/or taxes).
It usually works out pretty well (rarely will a player have complaint about this approach, in my experience).
figure 10% of total construction cost ,, AFTER the keep/ castle is built, for general maintenance, day to day is a bit different, figure Staff, and staff is skilled labor,, unless you use servants and slaves, then you must account for food and lodging as basic, Squallier, or modest accommodations at the least, so to figure a standard "KEEP" like in Keep on the Borderlands,, Module "B2" manned by about 250 men at arms, and a basic "KEEP" with small town contingent is going to run close to 1000 gp a day to maintain and that is on the light side of it. ! you need skilled craftsmen at all times, hunters, loggers, and the such. For More information on KEEPS and CASTLES and the politics of running them , I Suggest "THE CASTLE GUIDE" a 2 ed publication in soft cover with the Tag of DMGR2 " Dungeon Master Reference Guide #2
figure 10% of total construction cost,, just for maintenance ,, then you need the staff,, and hirelings are not cheap,, nor is the food cost to support them, see "the Castle Guide" a 2ed supplement