Hi all, I have as part of my overall story an encounter who is designed to be seen as the BBEG of the game. This figure will be essentially the last page of the first chapter of the story they're part of. I'm estimating that my party will all be level 4-5 and there are four party members, no pets, no familiars that I know of yet.
To that end, I'd like people's feedback on if you think it's an appropriate challenge and if you think I've got the Challenge Rating correct. I think it's about a 6 CR. The party will already have had to go through four Undying Soldiers and a [monster]Returned Sentry] to get into the lair of this guy. So they will already be down a few HP and have gone through a fight to get here. He might even, session dependant arrive during the Soldier/Sentry encounter.
The idea here is that this guy Paytor was villified and hated throughout history, he's being kept in a state of undeath and yearns for the days when he was adored. This enemy has been carrying out raids and burning down townships all over the area. Through finding some breadcrumbs and clues the party should or maybe could track the carnage back to his lair. Unbeknownst to Paytor his entire life was shaped by another force...that force is what is keeping him in undeath. Failing to kill this guy permanently I hope will be the trigger to send the party looking for the person behind Paytor, and ultimately the 'true' BBEG.
Per the Cr rules in the DMG he is a CR 8 but I think those rules often over estimate how well resistances immunity and regeneration effect survival especially in a case like this where I think the vulnerability is more likely to come into play than the immunity or resistances. With that in mind I would treat it as a cr 6. Though it also depends heavily on the spells you choose to cast. I did the math as if he was casting fireball every round but if you have a different attack pattern he might be weaker. I suggest you cull the number of spells he has an make a decision on what he's going to do in combat now then calculate cr based on that.
So, the core problem is that this guy is entirely unkillable -- they can keep him suppressed by spamming sacred flame or parking a moonbeam on his corpse, but the moment they stop he's going to stand up and blast them again, and level 4-5 PCs don't have the tools to deal with that; they basically have no options other than keep him suppressed until they run away.
His offensive CR is around 10, since he can cast fireball every round for well over 3 rounds.
So, the core problem is that this guy is entirely unkillable -- they can keep him suppressed by spamming sacred flame or parking a moonbeam on his corpse, but the moment they stop he's going to stand up and blast them again, and level 4-5 PCs don't have the tools to deal with that; they basically have no options other than keep him suppressed until they run away.
His offensive CR is around 10, since he can cast fireball every round for well over 3 rounds.
Is the idea he just gets up instantly i nthe same location instead of the typical regen of say a lich or devil?
Is the idea he just gets up instantly i nthe same location instead of the typical regen of say a lich or devil?
Dunno if that's the intent, but as written that's what happens, since his regeneration doesn't shut off at 0.
I usually read it as unless it says otherwise it dies when it hits 0 hit points automatically because monsters don't make death saving throws. Allot of the creatures with regen have the line " dies only if it starts its turn with 0 hit points and doesn't regenerate" like the troll which is what I see as necessary to make it come back from 0 hp.
So, the core problem is that this guy is entirely unkillable -- they can keep him suppressed by spamming sacred flame or parking a moonbeam on his corpse, but the moment they stop he's going to stand up and blast them again, and level 4-5 PCs don't have the tools to deal with that; they basically have no options other than keep him suppressed until they run away.
His offensive CR is around 10, since he can cast fireball every round for well over 3 rounds.
That is kind of the point. The difference is unless the party really annoy him, he isn't going to cast fireball every round. I intend to play him in such a way that the party will feel like he's either trying to corrupt them, or that they've got to make a temporary uneasy alliance with this guy to move forward. I like the idea of leaving him there as unfinished business for the party to return to.
If he is downed however, he won't immediately leap up. He'd instead slowly rise, so it would take time once he's knocked out for him to rise. So I will rewrite that part and the info on the rejuvenation, thanks folks.
The point here is that this guy at low levels should be too tough for the party at lower levels, but can be killed once they've gone out and found the really Big Bad of the campaign.
1) The CR system is garbage and what's worse, everyone knows it's garbage including the Devs. Using it in any way is a bad idea IMHO.
2) Depending on where your party is now, by level 3 you should have a good idea of what they'll be capable of by levels 4-5. By level 3 everyone has their subclass and at least a loose roadmap of their capabilities. You should base the BBEG on this.
3) It's perfectly fine to pull a fast one on the party and have the one they THINK is the BBEG turn out to be merely a minion. I had one of my T2 BBEGs travel with the party for several sessions and then encounter them in one-offs a couple of times. He was trying to learn what they were doing, all while acting like some mad hermit.
4) Remember that you don't have to generate the BBEG strictly RAW as long as you're providing a fair challenge for the players. If you REALLY need the BBEG to escape to return later, then formulate a non-BS way for them to do it and make it happen. It's perfectly fine to give them a 1-shot magic item to save them...once.
1) The CR system is garbage and what's worse, everyone knows it's garbage including the Devs. Using it in any way is a bad idea IMHO.
2) Depending on where your party is now, by level 3 you should have a good idea of what they'll be capable of by levels 4-5. By level 3 everyone has their subclass and at least a loose roadmap of their capabilities. You should base the BBEG on this.
3) It's perfectly fine to pull a fast one on the party and have the one they THINK is the BBEG turn out to be merely a minion. I had one of my T2 BBEGs travel with the party for several sessions and then encounter them in one-offs a couple of times. He was trying to learn what they were doing, all while acting like some mad hermit.
4) Remember that you don't have to generate the BBEG strictly RAW as long as you're providing a fair challenge for the players. If you REALLY need the BBEG to escape to return later, then formulate a non-BS way for them to do it and make it happen. It's perfectly fine to give them a 1-shot magic item to save them...once.
I have a larger set up in mind. Basically, this mislead guy is set up as the perfect fall guy. Historically he's gone down as a tyrant and a mass murderer. Storywise it's believable that he's the big bad.
I tend to structure my campaigns in terms of seasons or chapters. So if you imagine the entirety of season one has been the party finding out that this guy is the big bad. Once we've had a short break (to prevent DM and player burnout), season two will lead up to trying to kill the guy. When he goes down and throughout the series of sessions I'll be leaving clues that maybethis guy has been a pawn of another (think pact with a demon or similar...he's basically a puppet). Season three would then be tracking down the real big bad.
It seems odd but I structure this way because structures help my crazy brain make sense of stuff. Essentially the first series of sessions will take the players Lv.1-4 (Locally known). Second series brings them a bit more fame and strength as they move closer towards Lv.5-7 and ultimately regionally celebrated heroes. Third series will usually up the ante and thrust players onto a more global scale, travel becomes more frequent, the world gets that bit less friendly and more dangerous. This usually spans Lv.8-10. Fourth series of sessions will throw the fate of the world into the balance. I'm sure you get the point.
So what this means is that this guy fits in as the shadow that is cast over season 2 and that's what this group is working towards at the moment. We're just wrapping up season one, so we'll be taking a one month break before we return.
Hi all, I have as part of my overall story an encounter who is designed to be seen as the BBEG of the game. This figure will be essentially the last page of the first chapter of the story they're part of. I'm estimating that my party will all be level 4-5 and there are four party members, no pets, no familiars that I know of yet.
To that end, I'd like people's feedback on if you think it's an appropriate challenge and if you think I've got the Challenge Rating correct. I think it's about a 6 CR. The party will already have had to go through four Undying Soldiers and a [monster]Returned Sentry] to get into the lair of this guy. So they will already be down a few HP and have gone through a fight to get here. He might even, session dependant arrive during the Soldier/Sentry encounter.
The idea here is that this guy Paytor was villified and hated throughout history, he's being kept in a state of undeath and yearns for the days when he was adored. This enemy has been carrying out raids and burning down townships all over the area. Through finding some breadcrumbs and clues the party should or maybe could track the carnage back to his lair. Unbeknownst to Paytor his entire life was shaped by another force...that force is what is keeping him in undeath. Failing to kill this guy permanently I hope will be the trigger to send the party looking for the person behind Paytor, and ultimately the 'true' BBEG.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Per the Cr rules in the DMG he is a CR 8 but I think those rules often over estimate how well resistances immunity and regeneration effect survival especially in a case like this where I think the vulnerability is more likely to come into play than the immunity or resistances. With that in mind I would treat it as a cr 6. Though it also depends heavily on the spells you choose to cast. I did the math as if he was casting fireball every round but if you have a different attack pattern he might be weaker. I suggest you cull the number of spells he has an make a decision on what he's going to do in combat now then calculate cr based on that.
So, the core problem is that this guy is entirely unkillable -- they can keep him suppressed by spamming sacred flame or parking a moonbeam on his corpse, but the moment they stop he's going to stand up and blast them again, and level 4-5 PCs don't have the tools to deal with that; they basically have no options other than keep him suppressed until they run away.
His offensive CR is around 10, since he can cast fireball every round for well over 3 rounds.
Is the idea he just gets up instantly i nthe same location instead of the typical regen of say a lich or devil?
Dunno if that's the intent, but as written that's what happens, since his regeneration doesn't shut off at 0.
I usually read it as unless it says otherwise it dies when it hits 0 hit points automatically because monsters don't make death saving throws. Allot of the creatures with regen have the line " dies only if it starts its turn with 0 hit points and doesn't regenerate" like the troll which is what I see as necessary to make it come back from 0 hp.
Its Rejuvenation trait says it doesn't. That may not have been the intent, it's a bit vaguely written.
That is kind of the point. The difference is unless the party really annoy him, he isn't going to cast fireball every round. I intend to play him in such a way that the party will feel like he's either trying to corrupt them, or that they've got to make a temporary uneasy alliance with this guy to move forward. I like the idea of leaving him there as unfinished business for the party to return to.
If he is downed however, he won't immediately leap up. He'd instead slowly rise, so it would take time once he's knocked out for him to rise. So I will rewrite that part and the info on the rejuvenation, thanks folks.
The point here is that this guy at low levels should be too tough for the party at lower levels, but can be killed once they've gone out and found the really Big Bad of the campaign.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
1) The CR system is garbage and what's worse, everyone knows it's garbage including the Devs. Using it in any way is a bad idea IMHO.
2) Depending on where your party is now, by level 3 you should have a good idea of what they'll be capable of by levels 4-5. By level 3 everyone has their subclass and at least a loose roadmap of their capabilities. You should base the BBEG on this.
3) It's perfectly fine to pull a fast one on the party and have the one they THINK is the BBEG turn out to be merely a minion. I had one of my T2 BBEGs travel with the party for several sessions and then encounter them in one-offs a couple of times. He was trying to learn what they were doing, all while acting like some mad hermit.
4) Remember that you don't have to generate the BBEG strictly RAW as long as you're providing a fair challenge for the players. If you REALLY need the BBEG to escape to return later, then formulate a non-BS way for them to do it and make it happen. It's perfectly fine to give them a 1-shot magic item to save them...once.
I have a larger set up in mind. Basically, this mislead guy is set up as the perfect fall guy. Historically he's gone down as a tyrant and a mass murderer. Storywise it's believable that he's the big bad.
I tend to structure my campaigns in terms of seasons or chapters. So if you imagine the entirety of season one has been the party finding out that this guy is the big bad. Once we've had a short break (to prevent DM and player burnout), season two will lead up to trying to kill the guy. When he goes down and throughout the series of sessions I'll be leaving clues that maybe this guy has been a pawn of another (think pact with a demon or similar...he's basically a puppet). Season three would then be tracking down the real big bad.
It seems odd but I structure this way because structures help my crazy brain make sense of stuff. Essentially the first series of sessions will take the players Lv.1-4 (Locally known). Second series brings them a bit more fame and strength as they move closer towards Lv.5-7 and ultimately regionally celebrated heroes. Third series will usually up the ante and thrust players onto a more global scale, travel becomes more frequent, the world gets that bit less friendly and more dangerous. This usually spans Lv.8-10. Fourth series of sessions will throw the fate of the world into the balance. I'm sure you get the point.
So what this means is that this guy fits in as the shadow that is cast over season 2 and that's what this group is working towards at the moment. We're just wrapping up season one, so we'll be taking a one month break before we return.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.