I've got a party of six level 10 characters, and am planning to have them encounter an ancient black dragon. (Not in its lair.)
It's not supposed to be a fight. I don't expect it to be a fight -- most of the time, these players will try to head off hostilities even after the hostilities have begun.
However, players are players, and if they insist on making it a fight, I need to be prepared for it. The encounter builder says this isn't even a deadly encounter. Nonetheless, since half the characters can be one-shot with the breath weapon if they fail their saves, I have skepticism.
If it comes to a fight, how bad is it likely to be?
Without knowing a lot of details about the party, it's hard to say for sure. How much ability do they have to put out ranged damage? That's usually a big issue. If the party is 3 arcane casters, a talented bow user and a couple other character with range, this can go badly for the dragon. If it's a bunch of melee types, it's hard not to kill them. Also, dumb luck matters too. If you recharge immediately after the first breath weapon, it's likely to end badly.
At CR 21 and caught outside of its lair, the dragon will probably die in 2-3 rounds with no player death. Average damage for the acid breath is only 67 and recharges on a 5-6. The dragon probably won’t get to use the acid breath a second time. Assuming you’re using average HP, each of the players only need to deal 62 damage apiece. Even if players fail saves, they still have things like revivify or healing spells to mitigate their effects.
Action economy heavily in favour of the players and no lair actions, the dragon doesn’t stand a chance. You may want to refer to articles on running a dragon like an apex predator. Especially if it’s a black dragon, fundamentally the most evil and brutal of their kind.
The main problem you’re running into is taking an ancient dragon out of its lair, which is a huge disadvantage if you’re thinking combat may happen. Why would an ancient dragon let itself get caught out like that?
You seem to have a grasp on the difficulty in gaging this encounter. The action economy is so heavily skewed in the party's favor, that they could easily drop the Ancient Black Dragon in one round. So the dragon has to fight smart if it's going to be any sort of threat. That means no landing on the ground. The Whenever the dragon should only be leaving the safety of the dark sky or the depths of a lake to strafe the party with a breath attack, or to grapple someone with a claw or bite, and either fly them into the sky to be dropped, or dragged into the crushing depths of a lake to be drowned.
For Level 10 characters, they should survive the initial breath weapon attack, though several of them may be rendered unconscious, but as long as they have potions on them, they can deal with that. Maybe give them a turn or two to get themselves back on their feet as they try to figure out what direction the dragon will come at them next time, as it circles in the cloudy blackness of the night sky, waiting for its breath weapon to re-charge.
If the party's smart (and you've provided the option) they should be scattering and taking shelter, readying ranged weapons for when the dragon next shows itself. They should weather the second breath attack better than the first. After that, I'd have the dragon circling, and each turn swooping down to snatch up a member of the party, fly into the sky with them, then drop them, so they take fall damage and land prone. If you put the fight in a ruined castle, you could have a couple places set up where the party could lure the dragon into an ambush where they could use the terrain to fight it.
It should be an epic fight. Don't be surprised if a character or two are killed, but it shouldn't be a party-wipe unless the party doesn't make any smart decisions, or if the dice are overwhelmingly and against all probability trying to kill them all.
If someone in the party has the spell, Earthbind, that could end the fight quickly. So if someone casts it (even unsuccessfully) the dragon should probably center the next breath weapon on that individual, because its primary goal is self-preservation.
Anyone who thinks a dragon is an easy kill in any situation is not playing the dragon to its full potential. For that party to have even balanced odds against that dragon, the DM would have to be intentionally hamstringing the dragon just to be nice to his/her pals at the table. You don't reach the Ancient category by taking it easy on adventurers. That dragon will only confront the party on ITS terms, not on the party's terms. It will stay submerged in water, and/or use terrain to mask its approach. It will stay airborne, flying at 80 ft per round, staying 80 to 90 ft away from the party at all times, and just breathe acid on them over - and over - and over - and over.
Sure, the breath weapon only recharges on a 5-6. So what??? The dragon is not on a deadline. It doesn't have muffins in the oven. A 5-6 recharge means, on average, it will breathe acid every 3rd round. So the characters are taking an average of about 100 hit points of damage per minute. Fighters - useless. Rogues - useless. Barbarians - useless. The party has to do 367 hit points of magical ranged damage, at a minimum of a 90 ft range, overcoming 3 Legendary Resistances, before their hit points and their spell slots run out.
Won't happen.
Oh, you think maybe you'll sneak up on the dragon? Passive Perception of 26, 120 ft darkvision, 60 ft blindsight. No chance.
Oh, and let's not forget that every creature within 120 ft of that dragon has to make a DC 19 Wisdom save every round or be frightened of it (Frightful Presence!). So really you need to do 367 hit points of magical damage at more than 120 ft range in less than a minute, with all of your melee people sitting around being useless.
Won't happen.
Stop hamstringing dragons! They're in the name of this game for a reason! They are the Apex. Ancient dragons know how to fight. They know what they're doing. And even if the party pulls out a McGuffin that balances the fight in their favor, that dragon will just fly away at 18 miles per hour and regroup.
Oh, we're not done.
You fought an ancient black dragon and somehow managed to barely survive because the dragon fled after dropping below 100 hit points. Cool. So you're taking a short rest to soak up some sweet sweet hit dice healing. A shadow swoops over the treetops, and a 90 ft line of acid wrecks your short rest, and the dragon just keeps on flying out of sight. Eventually you'll need to stop for a long rest. Regain all your hit points and spell slots, right? Nope! Two hours into your long rest - Breath Weapon! Two hours later - Breath Weapon! Half an hour later - Breath Weapon! Half an hour later - Breath Weapon! Twenty minutes later - Breath Weapon! Ten minutes later - Breath Weapon!
Seriously, DMs. Stop hamstringing your dragons. Play them as if your life depended on it. Stop making them a rubber stamp speed bump on the party's road to glory and riches. These are creatures of legend! An ancient dragon against six level 10 characters? TPK. No question about it. Guaranteed. Every time.
PLAY DRAGONS RIGHT!
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It depends on the encounter situation, but against a party of 6 it's important to remember that the ability to drop PCs in one round is not exceptional, it's barely adequate.
I agree with you, but as per the original post, the fight won’t be in the dragons lair. This goose is cooked. The biggest challenge if combat happens is overcoming the legendary resistance, with 6 actions the party can probably burn the 3 uses pretty quick.
As an apex predator this dragon should be using hit & run tactics and at the very minimum luring the party into its lair. I’m not quite understanding why an ancient dragon would engage outside of its lair. It sounds like the biggest challenge is in making sure the encounter is a social one. The DM will need to lean into the personality of the dragon more than anything.
First, give me six Wisdom saves. DC 19. Failure means your attacks have disadvantage and you can't move closer. And since the dragon is 90 feet up in the air, your fighter, your rogue, and your barbarian won't be making any attacks on it this round. Or next round. Or the round after that. So your six actions are now down to three, maybe four, mostly at disadvantage. And you're aiming at an AC of 22. So even with a 20 ability score, your best attack is at +9, so you need a 13 to hit. That's a 60% chance of missing. And with disadvantage due to being frightened that's an effective 85% chance of missing with your attacks.
Remember, every character is rolling a Wisdom save at the start of every turn within 120 ft of that dragon. DC 19. So even with a 20 Wisdom and proficiency you've got a 50/50 chance of being frightened. And someone not proficient with a 10 Wisdom has a 95% chance of failure.
95% chance.
The only - and I mean the ONLY - chance the party has of anyone surviving at all is that the dragon won't be swooping in to do battle outside its lair just for sh*ts & giggles. If it's outside its lair, there's a reason. Maybe the dragon just wants to motivate the party to leave its territory and is happy to kill only one or two if that gets the message across to the other four. maybe the dragon actually wants to communicate with the party - to gather intel on its foes, to enlist the party to its cause, to tell the party to deliver a message for it to someone. That dragon will have a higher Intelligence than probably anyone in that party except the wizard. It knows what it's doing. If the party lays down arms, shows it respect, and offers it a few nice shinys as tribute, then maybe they'll survive for as long as they do what the dragon tells them to do. Anything less than that means the rest of their lives will be very painful, and very short.
At CR 21 and caught outside of its lair, the dragon will probably die in 2-3 rounds with no player death. Average damage for the acid breath is only 67 and recharges on a 5-6. The dragon probably won’t get to use the acid breath a second time. Assuming you’re using average HP, each of the players only need to deal 62 damage apiece. Even if players fail saves, they still have things like revivify or healing spells to mitigate their effects.
Action economy heavily in favour of the players and no lair actions, the dragon doesn’t stand a chance. You may want to refer to articles on running a dragon like an apex predator. Especially if it’s a black dragon, fundamentally the most evil and brutal of their kind.
The main problem you’re running into is taking an ancient dragon out of its lair, which is a huge disadvantage if you’re thinking combat may happen. Why would an ancient dragon let itself get caught out like that?
I think you're assuming the dragon is just standing in front of the party...
Even if the dragon starts out in front of the party on the ground (which would seem pretty dumb - it would be more likely to be either in water where characters are struggling to move, or find a high vantage point), the frightful presence combined with legendary saves and flying speed would render this a very dangerous encounter. Let's assume it takes a couple of hits by not being first in the action economy, then beats its wings with a decent chance of knocking over a couple of characters, and then as it rises can splash a good few of the party (not necessarily all though with a 10 foot wide line of breath weapon) with the breath weapon. Rising up to 60+ feet to close off some spells, and then spend a moment simply burning legendary saves and dodging to recharge the breath weapon.
Even without a flyby feature, the dragon can probably swoop down to start picking off party members after two rounds of breath weapon. It will have absorbed some damage, and will at all time be very likely to evade the fight and return to its lair as long as it remains air borne. With high intelligence and wisdom, a black dragon is not fighting to the death. I'd even argue that a retreat at 50% hp would be likely - although it would very likely not mean that the fight is over - just that round 1 went to the party :)
I do tend to enable dragons to be spellcasters as well - it seems odd that these ancient and highly intelligent creatures would not have dabbled in at least some magic. But that will likely tip the balance completely since it can burn spells while waiting for breath weapon to recharge as well.
You're going to find that a 6-player party is large enough to skew the CR math heavily in the players favor, especially considering CR was designed around a hypothetical 3-player party. At level 10, players are approaching unkillable anyways, and they're going to walk through Deadly encounters like they're nothing (especially if they're not facing 6-8 other resource consuming encounters that adventuring day, which considering nobody really plays that way anymore, they're probably not and therefore free to go nova in this encounter).
That's to say nothing of the 6 on 1 action economy mentioned above.
Basically you don't have to worry about TPKs unless you're actively trying to kill them.
I've got a party of six level 10 characters, and am planning to have them encounter an ancient black dragon. (Not in its lair.)
It's not supposed to be a fight. I don't expect it to be a fight -- most of the time, these players will try to head off hostilities even after the hostilities have begun.
However, players are players, and if they insist on making it a fight, I need to be prepared for it. The encounter builder says this isn't even a deadly encounter. Nonetheless, since half the characters can be one-shot with the breath weapon if they fail their saves, I have skepticism.
If it comes to a fight, how bad is it likely to be?
Then don't let it be a fight. Obviously there is some goal, some reason that the dragon decided to meet the PCs other than just chasing a snack, or you would not have said you're not planning for a fight. Whatever the dragon's non combat goal is, if the whole thing goes to the mattresses, the dragon is just going to leave as soon as that happens.
Why do people keep talking about "a 6 on 1 action economy"???
That's not what's happening here. Again - first, give me six Wisdom saving throws. DC 19.
Also - your melee characters don't get an action against a dragon that's flying 80 feet over their heads.
So even if the dragon rolls a 1 on initiative and goes last, it might have to survive maybe 3 or 4 attacks, most of which will be made at disadvantage because of the Frightful Presence feature which everyone seems to be conveniently ignoring. And, as stated previously, those 3 or 4 attacks will have between a 60% to an 85% chance of missing. So maybe - MAYBE - you get one solid hit on that dragon before it cuts your party in half with a breath weapon. So unless that one solid hit can do 367 hit points of damage, you're about to have a very bad day.
And an ancient dragon with an Int of 16 isn't going to go toe to toe in a melee attrition contest. It'll hurt you and fly away. One minute later it'll fly over and breath acid on you again and fly away. One minute later it'll do that again. And again a minute later.
What's the Draconic translation for, "I can do this all day" ???
If this is not an easy TPK then you're not playing that dragon to its real potential. You're just handing your buddies at the table empty XP. Sorry.
Why do people keep talking about "a 6 on 1 action economy"???
Because people focus excessively on action economy. The real reason the dragon loses is because the party has comparable total hit points to the dragon and twice the damage output.
I assume that in a 10th level party everyone has competent ranged actions. Frightful presence requires the dragon take the multiattack action (and is once per day, once someone makes a save they're immune), so no high altitude flyby attacks anyway, and its breath weapon is a line, it's unlikely to hit more than one PC if it's attacking downward. Meanwhile, the party is bombarding the dragon with spells and ranged attacks. Also, there are multiple ways of being resistant or immune to fear.
Why do people keep talking about "a 6 on 1 action economy"???
Because they're trying to answer my question, and they're saying that, if it comes to a straight-up fight, the dragon's likely getting spanked.
Lacking any details about the specific situation, or anything about the party composition, that's really the best anyone can do. And I thank them for it.
However, this is now the third time you've said your piece, and you're right -- in your assumed scenario, I can totally murder the PCs with an ancient dragon. Or I can just drop rocks on them.
Since the actual likely scenario is way more complicated, it's not that applicable, but thank you anyway.
But please stop asserting that it's the only situation in which a dragon would be fighting a bunch of PCs.
(Also, the power of frightful presence is significantly reduced by hit-and-run tactics. If the dragon leaves, there's a good chance people will make their saves before the next round.)
At CR 21 and caught outside of its lair, the dragon will probably die in 2-3 rounds with no player death. Average damage for the acid breath is only 67 and recharges on a 5-6. The dragon probably won’t get to use the acid breath a second time. Assuming you’re using average HP, each of the players only need to deal 62 damage apiece. Even if players fail saves, they still have things like revivify or healing spells to mitigate their effects.
Action economy heavily in favour of the players and no lair actions, the dragon doesn’t stand a chance. You may want to refer to articles on running a dragon like an apex predator. Especially if it’s a black dragon, fundamentally the most evil and brutal of their kind.
The main problem you’re running into is taking an ancient dragon out of its lair, which is a huge disadvantage if you’re thinking combat may happen. Why would an ancient dragon let itself get caught out like that?
I think you're assuming the dragon is just standing in front of the party...
I’m assuming this is intended as a social encounter, and the DM is playing to the personality of the dragon. An ancient black dragon outside of its lair will likely run from the fight (or start actively stalking the party). Realistically all the party needs is a bargaining chip from some long dead/fallen civilization and there’s a way out of combat (if we’re taking lore from the MM).
However, based on the assumption that it is intended as a social encounter, there’s a good chance the dragon is within 60 feet of the party (in range of blindsight). If it comes to a fight… all the party needs to do is knock the dragon prone or incapacitate it. With an ancient dragon that’s going to be tough no doubt, but not impossible for 6 level 10 characters.
For some context, I run a game with 6 players and I’ve had to rethink every ‘single monster’ encounter. Large parties are just tough, even more so if any of them optimize.
Lvl 10 Fighter (samurai), let’s assume 18 dex and 14 wis and uses a longbow.
archery, +2 on attack rolls // Sharpshooter feat // action surge + fighting spirit + extra attack = 4 attacks with advantage // proficiency with wis saves // gets 1 re-roll on a failed save
Attack bonus is +10,
each arrow does 1d8+4(dex) or 5-12, base damage, with a range of up to 600ft (ignoring 1/2 & 3/4 cover) & 15-22 if using sharpshooter. If the fighter has arrows of dragon slaying… you can add 6d10 to each of the attacks (half on a save). It’s not unreasonable for the fighter to have some magic gear by lvl 10.
Normal shot with a slayer arrow: 5-12 plus 6-60 (3-30 on a save). On a fail, that’s 11-72 and on a save 8-42. Per arrow. (Assuming the dragon makes the saves against 3 shots it’s 24-126)
Sharpshooter with slayer arrow: 15-22 plus 6-60 (3-30 on a save). On a fail, that’s 21-82 and on a save 18-52. Per arrow. (As above but only 2 hit, its 36-104)
Considering the dragon doesn’t have any damage resistances (piercing)… it’s unmitigated (only immune to acid). With 367hp, this fighter is able to hit for 1/6 to 1/3 of the dragons total hp in a single round.
If the fighter fails the fear save, rolls again… has a +6, I’ll take those odds.
That’s just one example of what a ‘melee’ character can do at lvl10. Sure the fighter is using a bow, probably also has a magic weapon for melee.
now extend that to 5 other characters who can also hit for at least 1/6 of the total hp… the CR21 dragon is not going to have a nice day.
First - because apparently I have to say this twelve times - roll a Wisdom saving throw. DC 19. Your 14 Wisdom gives you an 80% chance of failing that save. Your impressive +10 to hit means you're going to miss more than half of your shots (55%). But there's an 80% chance you failed your save so now you've got an effective miss rate of 80%. That means you're only going to hit with every 5th shot. That's 1 hit every 3rd round.
So even if you spend the entire campaign literally min-maxing your character with the exact features, feats, and magic items you'll eventually need to prepare yourself for this exact encounter, you're still only going to miss a lot more than you hit. So take that "1/6 to 1/3 of the dragon's total hp" and divide it by five.
And again - you're assuming that the dragon is just standing still, trading blows in a hit point attrition contest. Is that really how you think an ancient dragon fights? The dragon simply flies away. Then the dragon flies back literally every five minutes for the next 12 hours to breath acid on your position. How many arrows do you have? How many spells slots does your 10th level cleric have? (15, btw). How many short rests will it take before you've used all your hit dice? How will you take a long rest with a dragon flying overhead breathing acid every five minutes?
I want to play at your table. I wish I had a DM that simply handed out XP for doing 367 hit points of damage against creatures that just stand there and let you shoot at them. That would make the game so much easier. A lot less fun, in my opinion, but so much easier.
First - because apparently I have to say this twelve times - roll a Wisdom saving throw. DC 19. Your 14 Wisdom gives you an 80% chance of failing that save.
Did you fail to notice proficiency in wisdom saves (level 10 samurai feature)?
In practice a party of 6 is likely to have a paladin (aura of courage is fear immunity, aura of protection can be used to help people out of fear), and may well have a twilight cleric, or a bard or cleric with calm emotions, or items that provide bonuses to saves, or... and then, being frightened has absolutely no effect on spells that don't have an attack roll; sure, the dragon has good saves but it still takes half damage. Or you can just magic missile it to death.
Lvl 10 Fighter (samurai), let’s assume 18 dex and 14 wis and uses a longbow.
archery, +2 on attack rolls // Sharpshooter feat // action surge + fighting spirit + extra attack = 4 attacks with advantage // proficiency with wis saves // gets 1 re-roll on a failed save
Attack bonus is +10,
each arrow does 1d8+4(dex) or 5-12, base damage, with a range of up to 600ft (ignoring 1/2 & 3/4 cover) & 15-22 if using sharpshooter. If the fighter has arrows of dragon slaying… you can add 6d10 to each of the attacks (half on a save). It’s not unreasonable for the fighter to have some magic gear by lvl 10.
Normal shot with a slayer arrow: 5-12 plus 6-60 (3-30 on a save). On a fail, that’s 11-72 and on a save 8-42. Per arrow. (Assuming the dragon makes the saves against 3 shots it’s 24-126)
Sharpshooter with slayer arrow: 15-22 plus 6-60 (3-30 on a save). On a fail, that’s 21-82 and on a save 18-52. Per arrow. (As above but only 2 hit, its 36-104)
Considering the dragon doesn’t have any damage resistances (piercing)… it’s unmitigated (only immune to acid). With 367hp, this fighter is able to hit for 1/6 to 1/3 of the dragons total hp in a single round.
If the fighter fails the fear save, rolls again… has a +6, I’ll take those odds.
That’s just one example of what a ‘melee’ character can do at lvl10. Sure the fighter is using a bow, probably also has a magic weapon for melee.
now extend that to 5 other characters who can also hit for at least 1/6 of the total hp… the CR21 dragon is not going to have a nice day.
Yes, but an ancient black dragon, let's assume has Gloves of Missile Snaring and reduces all the damage. You can "what if" with a specific PC all day, but that doesn't mean they are in the party or have the specific magical item required.
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I've got a party of six level 10 characters, and am planning to have them encounter an ancient black dragon. (Not in its lair.)
It's not supposed to be a fight. I don't expect it to be a fight -- most of the time, these players will try to head off hostilities even after the hostilities have begun.
However, players are players, and if they insist on making it a fight, I need to be prepared for it. The encounter builder says this isn't even a deadly encounter. Nonetheless, since half the characters can be one-shot with the breath weapon if they fail their saves, I have skepticism.
If it comes to a fight, how bad is it likely to be?
Without knowing a lot of details about the party, it's hard to say for sure. How much ability do they have to put out ranged damage? That's usually a big issue. If the party is 3 arcane casters, a talented bow user and a couple other character with range, this can go badly for the dragon. If it's a bunch of melee types, it's hard not to kill them. Also, dumb luck matters too. If you recharge immediately after the first breath weapon, it's likely to end badly.
At CR 21 and caught outside of its lair, the dragon will probably die in 2-3 rounds with no player death. Average damage for the acid breath is only 67 and recharges on a 5-6. The dragon probably won’t get to use the acid breath a second time. Assuming you’re using average HP, each of the players only need to deal 62 damage apiece. Even if players fail saves, they still have things like revivify or healing spells to mitigate their effects.
Action economy heavily in favour of the players and no lair actions, the dragon doesn’t stand a chance. You may want to refer to articles on running a dragon like an apex predator. Especially if it’s a black dragon, fundamentally the most evil and brutal of their kind.
The main problem you’re running into is taking an ancient dragon out of its lair, which is a huge disadvantage if you’re thinking combat may happen. Why would an ancient dragon let itself get caught out like that?
You seem to have a grasp on the difficulty in gaging this encounter. The action economy is so heavily skewed in the party's favor, that they could easily drop the Ancient Black Dragon in one round. So the dragon has to fight smart if it's going to be any sort of threat. That means no landing on the ground. The Whenever the dragon should only be leaving the safety of the dark sky or the depths of a lake to strafe the party with a breath attack, or to grapple someone with a claw or bite, and either fly them into the sky to be dropped, or dragged into the crushing depths of a lake to be drowned.
For Level 10 characters, they should survive the initial breath weapon attack, though several of them may be rendered unconscious, but as long as they have potions on them, they can deal with that. Maybe give them a turn or two to get themselves back on their feet as they try to figure out what direction the dragon will come at them next time, as it circles in the cloudy blackness of the night sky, waiting for its breath weapon to re-charge.
If the party's smart (and you've provided the option) they should be scattering and taking shelter, readying ranged weapons for when the dragon next shows itself. They should weather the second breath attack better than the first. After that, I'd have the dragon circling, and each turn swooping down to snatch up a member of the party, fly into the sky with them, then drop them, so they take fall damage and land prone. If you put the fight in a ruined castle, you could have a couple places set up where the party could lure the dragon into an ambush where they could use the terrain to fight it.
It should be an epic fight. Don't be surprised if a character or two are killed, but it shouldn't be a party-wipe unless the party doesn't make any smart decisions, or if the dice are overwhelmingly and against all probability trying to kill them all.
If someone in the party has the spell, Earthbind, that could end the fight quickly. So if someone casts it (even unsuccessfully) the dragon should probably center the next breath weapon on that individual, because its primary goal is self-preservation.
In my humble opinion - easy TPK. No question.
Anyone who thinks a dragon is an easy kill in any situation is not playing the dragon to its full potential. For that party to have even balanced odds against that dragon, the DM would have to be intentionally hamstringing the dragon just to be nice to his/her pals at the table. You don't reach the Ancient category by taking it easy on adventurers. That dragon will only confront the party on ITS terms, not on the party's terms. It will stay submerged in water, and/or use terrain to mask its approach. It will stay airborne, flying at 80 ft per round, staying 80 to 90 ft away from the party at all times, and just breathe acid on them over - and over - and over - and over.
Sure, the breath weapon only recharges on a 5-6. So what??? The dragon is not on a deadline. It doesn't have muffins in the oven. A 5-6 recharge means, on average, it will breathe acid every 3rd round. So the characters are taking an average of about 100 hit points of damage per minute. Fighters - useless. Rogues - useless. Barbarians - useless. The party has to do 367 hit points of magical ranged damage, at a minimum of a 90 ft range, overcoming 3 Legendary Resistances, before their hit points and their spell slots run out.
Won't happen.
Oh, you think maybe you'll sneak up on the dragon? Passive Perception of 26, 120 ft darkvision, 60 ft blindsight. No chance.
Oh, and let's not forget that every creature within 120 ft of that dragon has to make a DC 19 Wisdom save every round or be frightened of it (Frightful Presence!). So really you need to do 367 hit points of magical damage at more than 120 ft range in less than a minute, with all of your melee people sitting around being useless.
Won't happen.
Stop hamstringing dragons! They're in the name of this game for a reason! They are the Apex. Ancient dragons know how to fight. They know what they're doing. And even if the party pulls out a McGuffin that balances the fight in their favor, that dragon will just fly away at 18 miles per hour and regroup.
Oh, we're not done.
You fought an ancient black dragon and somehow managed to barely survive because the dragon fled after dropping below 100 hit points. Cool. So you're taking a short rest to soak up some sweet sweet hit dice healing. A shadow swoops over the treetops, and a 90 ft line of acid wrecks your short rest, and the dragon just keeps on flying out of sight. Eventually you'll need to stop for a long rest. Regain all your hit points and spell slots, right? Nope! Two hours into your long rest - Breath Weapon! Two hours later - Breath Weapon! Half an hour later - Breath Weapon! Half an hour later - Breath Weapon! Twenty minutes later - Breath Weapon! Ten minutes later - Breath Weapon!
Seriously, DMs. Stop hamstringing your dragons. Play them as if your life depended on it. Stop making them a rubber stamp speed bump on the party's road to glory and riches. These are creatures of legend! An ancient dragon against six level 10 characters? TPK. No question about it. Guaranteed. Every time.
PLAY DRAGONS RIGHT!
Thank you for attending my Ted Talk. See the receptionist to have your parking validated. Good night.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
It depends on the encounter situation, but against a party of 6 it's important to remember that the ability to drop PCs in one round is not exceptional, it's barely adequate.
I agree with you, but as per the original post, the fight won’t be in the dragons lair. This goose is cooked. The biggest challenge if combat happens is overcoming the legendary resistance, with 6 actions the party can probably burn the 3 uses pretty quick.
As an apex predator this dragon should be using hit & run tactics and at the very minimum luring the party into its lair. I’m not quite understanding why an ancient dragon would engage outside of its lair. It sounds like the biggest challenge is in making sure the encounter is a social one. The DM will need to lean into the personality of the dragon more than anything.
Lair or not doesn't matter. Easy TPK.
Six actions??? Says who???
First, give me six Wisdom saves. DC 19. Failure means your attacks have disadvantage and you can't move closer. And since the dragon is 90 feet up in the air, your fighter, your rogue, and your barbarian won't be making any attacks on it this round. Or next round. Or the round after that. So your six actions are now down to three, maybe four, mostly at disadvantage. And you're aiming at an AC of 22. So even with a 20 ability score, your best attack is at +9, so you need a 13 to hit. That's a 60% chance of missing. And with disadvantage due to being frightened that's an effective 85% chance of missing with your attacks.
Remember, every character is rolling a Wisdom save at the start of every turn within 120 ft of that dragon. DC 19. So even with a 20 Wisdom and proficiency you've got a 50/50 chance of being frightened. And someone not proficient with a 10 Wisdom has a 95% chance of failure.
95% chance.
The only - and I mean the ONLY - chance the party has of anyone surviving at all is that the dragon won't be swooping in to do battle outside its lair just for sh*ts & giggles. If it's outside its lair, there's a reason. Maybe the dragon just wants to motivate the party to leave its territory and is happy to kill only one or two if that gets the message across to the other four. maybe the dragon actually wants to communicate with the party - to gather intel on its foes, to enlist the party to its cause, to tell the party to deliver a message for it to someone. That dragon will have a higher Intelligence than probably anyone in that party except the wizard. It knows what it's doing. If the party lays down arms, shows it respect, and offers it a few nice shinys as tribute, then maybe they'll survive for as long as they do what the dragon tells them to do. Anything less than that means the rest of their lives will be very painful, and very short.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
I think you're assuming the dragon is just standing in front of the party...
Even if the dragon starts out in front of the party on the ground (which would seem pretty dumb - it would be more likely to be either in water where characters are struggling to move, or find a high vantage point), the frightful presence combined with legendary saves and flying speed would render this a very dangerous encounter.
Let's assume it takes a couple of hits by not being first in the action economy, then beats its wings with a decent chance of knocking over a couple of characters, and then as it rises can splash a good few of the party (not necessarily all though with a 10 foot wide line of breath weapon) with the breath weapon. Rising up to 60+ feet to close off some spells, and then spend a moment simply burning legendary saves and dodging to recharge the breath weapon.
Even without a flyby feature, the dragon can probably swoop down to start picking off party members after two rounds of breath weapon. It will have absorbed some damage, and will at all time be very likely to evade the fight and return to its lair as long as it remains air borne. With high intelligence and wisdom, a black dragon is not fighting to the death. I'd even argue that a retreat at 50% hp would be likely - although it would very likely not mean that the fight is over - just that round 1 went to the party :)
I do tend to enable dragons to be spellcasters as well - it seems odd that these ancient and highly intelligent creatures would not have dabbled in at least some magic. But that will likely tip the balance completely since it can burn spells while waiting for breath weapon to recharge as well.
You're going to find that a 6-player party is large enough to skew the CR math heavily in the players favor, especially considering CR was designed around a hypothetical 3-player party. At level 10, players are approaching unkillable anyways, and they're going to walk through Deadly encounters like they're nothing (especially if they're not facing 6-8 other resource consuming encounters that adventuring day, which considering nobody really plays that way anymore, they're probably not and therefore free to go nova in this encounter).
That's to say nothing of the 6 on 1 action economy mentioned above.
Basically you don't have to worry about TPKs unless you're actively trying to kill them.
Then don't let it be a fight. Obviously there is some goal, some reason that the dragon decided to meet the PCs other than just chasing a snack, or you would not have said you're not planning for a fight. Whatever the dragon's non combat goal is, if the whole thing goes to the mattresses, the dragon is just going to leave as soon as that happens.
Why do people keep talking about "a 6 on 1 action economy"???
That's not what's happening here. Again - first, give me six Wisdom saving throws. DC 19.
Also - your melee characters don't get an action against a dragon that's flying 80 feet over their heads.
So even if the dragon rolls a 1 on initiative and goes last, it might have to survive maybe 3 or 4 attacks, most of which will be made at disadvantage because of the Frightful Presence feature which everyone seems to be conveniently ignoring. And, as stated previously, those 3 or 4 attacks will have between a 60% to an 85% chance of missing. So maybe - MAYBE - you get one solid hit on that dragon before it cuts your party in half with a breath weapon. So unless that one solid hit can do 367 hit points of damage, you're about to have a very bad day.
And an ancient dragon with an Int of 16 isn't going to go toe to toe in a melee attrition contest. It'll hurt you and fly away. One minute later it'll fly over and breath acid on you again and fly away. One minute later it'll do that again. And again a minute later.
What's the Draconic translation for, "I can do this all day" ???
If this is not an easy TPK then you're not playing that dragon to its real potential. You're just handing your buddies at the table empty XP. Sorry.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
Because people focus excessively on action economy. The real reason the dragon loses is because the party has comparable total hit points to the dragon and twice the damage output.
I assume that in a 10th level party everyone has competent ranged actions. Frightful presence requires the dragon take the multiattack action (and is once per day, once someone makes a save they're immune), so no high altitude flyby attacks anyway, and its breath weapon is a line, it's unlikely to hit more than one PC if it's attacking downward. Meanwhile, the party is bombarding the dragon with spells and ranged attacks. Also, there are multiple ways of being resistant or immune to fear.
Because they're trying to answer my question, and they're saying that, if it comes to a straight-up fight, the dragon's likely getting spanked.
Lacking any details about the specific situation, or anything about the party composition, that's really the best anyone can do. And I thank them for it.
However, this is now the third time you've said your piece, and you're right -- in your assumed scenario, I can totally murder the PCs with an ancient dragon. Or I can just drop rocks on them.
Since the actual likely scenario is way more complicated, it's not that applicable, but thank you anyway.
But please stop asserting that it's the only situation in which a dragon would be fighting a bunch of PCs.
(Also, the power of frightful presence is significantly reduced by hit-and-run tactics. If the dragon leaves, there's a good chance people will make their saves before the next round.)
I’m assuming this is intended as a social encounter, and the DM is playing to the personality of the dragon. An ancient black dragon outside of its lair will likely run from the fight (or start actively stalking the party). Realistically all the party needs is a bargaining chip from some long dead/fallen civilization and there’s a way out of combat (if we’re taking lore from the MM).
However, based on the assumption that it is intended as a social encounter, there’s a good chance the dragon is within 60 feet of the party (in range of blindsight). If it comes to a fight… all the party needs to do is knock the dragon prone or incapacitate it. With an ancient dragon that’s going to be tough no doubt, but not impossible for 6 level 10 characters.
For some context, I run a game with 6 players and I’ve had to rethink every ‘single monster’ encounter. Large parties are just tough, even more so if any of them optimize.
@AnzioFaro
Lvl 10 Fighter (samurai), let’s assume 18 dex and 14 wis and uses a longbow.
archery, +2 on attack rolls // Sharpshooter feat // action surge + fighting spirit + extra attack = 4 attacks with advantage // proficiency with wis saves // gets 1 re-roll on a failed save
Attack bonus is +10,
each arrow does 1d8+4(dex) or 5-12, base damage, with a range of up to 600ft (ignoring 1/2 & 3/4 cover) & 15-22 if using sharpshooter. If the fighter has arrows of dragon slaying… you can add 6d10 to each of the attacks (half on a save). It’s not unreasonable for the fighter to have some magic gear by lvl 10.
Normal shot with a slayer arrow: 5-12 plus 6-60 (3-30 on a save). On a fail, that’s 11-72 and on a save 8-42. Per arrow. (Assuming the dragon makes the saves against 3 shots it’s 24-126)
Sharpshooter with slayer arrow: 15-22 plus 6-60 (3-30 on a save). On a fail, that’s 21-82 and on a save 18-52. Per arrow. (As above but only 2 hit, its 36-104)
Considering the dragon doesn’t have any damage resistances (piercing)… it’s unmitigated (only immune to acid). With 367hp, this fighter is able to hit for 1/6 to 1/3 of the dragons total hp in a single round.
If the fighter fails the fear save, rolls again… has a +6, I’ll take those odds.
That’s just one example of what a ‘melee’ character can do at lvl10. Sure the fighter is using a bow, probably also has a magic weapon for melee.
now extend that to 5 other characters who can also hit for at least 1/6 of the total hp… the CR21 dragon is not going to have a nice day.
Slow down, Mr. Samurai.
First - because apparently I have to say this twelve times - roll a Wisdom saving throw. DC 19. Your 14 Wisdom gives you an 80% chance of failing that save. Your impressive +10 to hit means you're going to miss more than half of your shots (55%). But there's an 80% chance you failed your save so now you've got an effective miss rate of 80%. That means you're only going to hit with every 5th shot. That's 1 hit every 3rd round.
So even if you spend the entire campaign literally min-maxing your character with the exact features, feats, and magic items you'll eventually need to prepare yourself for this exact encounter, you're still only going to miss a lot more than you hit. So take that "1/6 to 1/3 of the dragon's total hp" and divide it by five.
And again - you're assuming that the dragon is just standing still, trading blows in a hit point attrition contest. Is that really how you think an ancient dragon fights? The dragon simply flies away. Then the dragon flies back literally every five minutes for the next 12 hours to breath acid on your position. How many arrows do you have? How many spells slots does your 10th level cleric have? (15, btw). How many short rests will it take before you've used all your hit dice? How will you take a long rest with a dragon flying overhead breathing acid every five minutes?
I want to play at your table. I wish I had a DM that simply handed out XP for doing 367 hit points of damage against creatures that just stand there and let you shoot at them. That would make the game so much easier. A lot less fun, in my opinion, but so much easier.
Anzio Faro. Protector Aasimar light cleric. Lvl 18.
Viktor Gavriil. White dragonborn grave cleric. Lvl 20.
Ikram Sahir ibn-Malik al-Sayyid Ra'ad. Brass dragonborn draconic sorcerer Lvl 9. Fire elemental devil.
Wrangler of cats.
Did you fail to notice proficiency in wisdom saves (level 10 samurai feature)?
In practice a party of 6 is likely to have a paladin (aura of courage is fear immunity, aura of protection can be used to help people out of fear), and may well have a twilight cleric, or a bard or cleric with calm emotions, or items that provide bonuses to saves, or... and then, being frightened has absolutely no effect on spells that don't have an attack roll; sure, the dragon has good saves but it still takes half damage. Or you can just magic missile it to death.
Yes, but an ancient black dragon, let's assume has Gloves of Missile Snaring and reduces all the damage. You can "what if" with a specific PC all day, but that doesn't mean they are in the party or have the specific magical item required.