Having begun my RP game experience during those early, deadly years, I grew to enjoy the uncertainty of success inherent in potentially deadly scenarios. They teach the players that smart play can earn them great rewards, and brute force and arrogance carry their own costs. They also teach the player that a character is not a family member, lover, or even a favorite pet. It is an avatar, and its sole purpose is to have fun through it.

Whether due to an emotional attachment, or possibly even a substantial financial investment in purchased miniatures and commissioned back stories, and ghost-written chronicles of their deeds, some folks take that loss very hard, or refuse to allow for it at all.  Some believe that 'the potentially deadly scenario' equates to 'the no win scenario', and is therefore unfair. Some expect, and may even insist, that all encounters presented to the players should result in the characters walking out, bruised perhaps, but victorious, regardless of the decisions and actions taken by the player/character. Any encounter that does not match this criteria is a 'no win scenario' and should be disallowed.

My question to the forum is: How do you as a player or DM differentiate between the two? As a DM, how do you handle this at your table?

Case in point.:

A little over a week ago, I was let into a game and my character was introduced to the others as a spokesperson for a kobold tribe. (Makes perfect sense when one knows the backstory) The DM, who loves role play as I do, was hoping that my playing style and kobold character could maybe help steer this group of murder hobos away from another random, gleeful slaughter fest, led by a player with a somewhat overbearing personality, and show the less experienced players that there are other play style options.

Setup: The Duke from the nearest city hired them, a small band of 4th-5th level adventurers, to investigate rumors of a dragon, who had been seen stealing livestock from a nearby farm village. The dragon was said to have, "A mouth so large, it bit the farmer's old draft horse in half!"  (The DM designed this encounter to challenge a well-balanced, low teens party. If played smart, this low level group was to learn that they were in over their head, but gain another job; one better suited to their level, and which could put the party back into the story.

Once they arrived, the players charged their characters forward, within sight of the entrance to the lair, slaughtering dozens of kobolds in their path, mostly with blasts of magic, but being forced to retreat before they can gain entry. Dozens more poured out through the entry to ensure that they left, but did not pursue them. That was the DM's first clue, that they needed to play this one smarter.

Later on, the party having recouped and resupplied, they attempted another frontal assault. (Here's where I come in, as the wild card. This character is not a member of this tribe, but a useful captive. Has lived here for years, knows this place, and is currently waiting for the party inside a large chamber; at the center of a large, single-use trap designed and built to crush all who are inside it when tripped, then block this entrance with hundreds of tons of stone debris. With nothing to lose, in their mind, my character will die with 'the enemy' if necessary.)

Back to the main party. This time around, they meet no resistance at all (second clue to the party to maybe start thinking), and walk right into this massive hall, designed to collapse onto them.

The lone kobold standing in front to them informs them of what they are standing in, tells them that this tribe holds hundreds of members ready to kill any unlikely survivors, states that it is willing to die with them, and asks if they are willing to parlay.

The player leading this group immediately stands up at the table and goes ballistic. "That's bullshit!!. . .It's a no-win scenario!. . ." To the DM, "If I knew you were going to lead my character to be slaughtered, I'd have told you '**** you!' and pulled my character from the game!". . .

This player is maybe 6'2" tall, and well built, and now he's red-faced, and shouting at the DM. I, the DM, and the other players just waited quietly, while that player's friend talked him down.

Twenty minutes later, after the players got back to the game, the characters learned that the kobolds share a mutual enemy with the townspeople who hired them. In exchange for promising not to disturb the dragon (more detail to all this, but not here), and for helping to eliminate the enemy from these caverns, the party gained goodies in other ways, and gained the promise of shelter and or safe passage through the kobold's large territory, should the need ever arise. The kobolds pledge to do all in their power to keep the dragon from harassing the local livestock. Dragons do what dragons want to do, but it will be years before the townsfolk hear from that particular dragon again.

This scenario was certainly deadly. Had the leader charged ahead, the party would have been pancaked. That said, none of this was suddenly released on them, for no logical reason. As a DM, or player, does this play method appeal to you, or work for you these days?

I notice that there is no mention of a Session 0 for this party. If there wasn't, that was a mistake. Where the campaign is going to fall on the spectrum of bouncy castle to meat grinder is one of the first things that a group should discuss and agree upon. If the DM had explicitly told them that this campaign would be an open world with challenges bigger than they can solve through violence, then the players have no reason to be surprised by precisely that.

The discussion of a "No-Win Scenario" suggests to me that there was a failure to set expectations and then follow through.

Separately, DMs ought to take advantage of both in-game and out of game channels. If the players aren't recognizing signs of danger in-game, then they should consider out right telling the players "We will play out the story according to how your characters wish to behave, but the area ahead is significantly stronger than your characters are built to handle. A TPK is extremely likely if you charge in."

Also, Auto-kills are not in the spirit of the game and entirely unnecessary. Even if a city sized cavern collapsed, there is room to run a series of skill challenges to give the smallest chance of survival. Have the party make ~5 rolls with either advantage or disadvantage based on how they wish to escape. It's pretty likely that some, but not all, of the party will die, which allows the story to continue with heavy casualties.

When players face "Do what I want, or the game ends" encounters, that comes across as railroading with extra steps.

I want to echo the above on all points:

1 - Set expectations for the game with your players.

2 - Have good in and out of game conversations with your players.

3 - Forcing the group into a very specific course of action is fraught with problems

I will also add that NONE of these relate to the initial hypothesis you posted related to the "no win" vs "potentially deadly" encounter.  The player here was wrong to call this a "no win" because it's not a forced death/ fail - it was a Forced Roleplay/Parlay.  And this isn't tied to any "trend" towards players becoming attached to a character to the point where they really don't want a game where Death is on the line.

To that end I can relate:

My monthly group just took a portal in the Undermountain to a MUCH more challenging area.  And they are DEAD set to explore it becuase they want "a real challenge with real money".  And I'm pretty sure that running it As Written will kill some characters.  So we had to have a LOT of OOC conversations about where they are, what it's balanced for and ask, realistically if they want to stay both In Character and Out of Character.  This is all harder by the fact that the party is split on the issue.

But to the No Win vs Deadly?

I don't play Deadly anymore.  It's not fun to me.  If the game ends because the party wipes, then for me, the work of laying out the story arcs, working in backstories, of tayloring NPC's to the moment and the party are all... over.  It's all wasted time.  Personally I need the party to see their way to the end of the story becuase for ME, the DM, that's fun too.  Now, there are setbacks, defeats, etc.  If players "die" they have to backtrack, get resurrection magic (possibly) or at least take some long rests to get back into it.  it's still a LOSS for bad choices or bad tactics or bad luck. 

And I tell people this up front pretty clearly.  HP to me isnt' life points, it's "fatigue and strength" and I don't like to see characters die which is why for streams we do custom artwork to help build immersion and entertain.  Could someone die?  Sure.  But it won't be random or simple.  It will be one that we ALL can find satisfaction in.

Fair enough. Here's what I else know of the dynamics:

I'm the new guy. Was told by the friend of the party leader, friends for years, that this DM was into roleplay, and had told all players that, especially at lower levels, they would encounter things that they might not be ready for. To my knowledge, everything that the party had confronted so far had been defeated. I was warned by both the friend and the DM that the party leader's player was quick with the meta aspect of the game, and played his character very personally.

To my knowledge, the "No Win Scenario" was a term first announced, loudly, by the player in question. The DM had planned the "mutual enemy" option long before this encounter. The "leave the way you came in, unharmed" option was never mentioned, because of the player's outburst. (Edit: a little beyond reasonable in my humble opinion. Their party had killed dozens of their members, just a few days earlier. One could argue that, at this moment, further losses made even less sense to the tribe.)

I have learned that The DM in question sides with you on Auto-kills, but was willing to make survival at their level near impossible, and the damage range was set. The 300 tribes people, ready to attack were false; a lie from the lone kobold, one that all of the party failed to detect.

Only that one player in this group felt that they were being railroaded. Perhaps not so much anymore?

Oddly enough, the party is still together, with a kobold tagging along. Been a lot of fun.

The group may be due for another Session 0b just to re-establish any expectations that may have been forgotten, and perhaps discuss how people prefer to be communicated with. (e.g. in-game versus out of game, publicly versus privately, etc...)

It also may not hurt to invite the players to run one-shots from time to time. When players get a peek behind the screen, it can have a positive impact on their overall attitude and help them be more understanding about the challenges that a GM faces.

Edit: I also recommend watching Brennan Lee Mulligan's games on youtube (Dimension 20, College Humor). It's a good resource for inspiration.

Thanks, y'all. I appreciate your input.

I am known to start 1st level characters off against a demon, to create dungeon rooms that are shaped like a dragon breath weapon cone, to have traps designed to destroy a character, and yet I also have a fairly low kill rate.

My approach though is to give the players the joy of creating a protagonist in a story. I will kill them, but I tend towards giving them every possible chance to pull out of a completely deadly situation.

There is no winning when you cannot escape a dragon’s breath, and there is no story when you are crushed between a thirty ton block of stone and the floor. But damn do I make it hard for them, and in doing so they gain the story of that event. characters become heroes, and very much beloved, and then they ultimately get retired and new ones come up. I am more likely to kill low level characters, but because we put effort into developing them, we like to ensure they are kept whole and able to be part of their own story.

Quote from first_rolled_a_die_in_1976 >>

 

My question to the forum is: How do you as a player or DM differentiate between the two? As a DM, how do you handle this at your table?

I too, began in the days of 1st Edition, where death was literally behind every closed door you walked into.

But the game has changed. And so have I.

Back then, it was literally dungeons & (sometimes) dragons. But there were module after module of endless, oddly shaped, light blue and white maps. That were just dungeons with thinly laid storylines over them. And why monsters in Room 3 didn't come rushing in when they heard fireballs going off 10 feet away in Room 4, was also normal. And often times, different monsters in different rooms, not far from each other.

Over the years, D&D became more about gathering around and having a good time, and a good story (for me). As such, I present deadly encounters, but I rarely try to kill any characters, unless they do something absolutely foolish. (For example, if a low level party has managed to sneak past the dragon to go deeper into the cave; and on the way out one of them decides to flick the sleeping dragon on the nose; they're getting a breath weapon, as a surprise attack, no save, to the face - and the dragon is going to all out try to kill them).

In such a recent deadly encounter, the party encountered a homebrew hydra that had different breath weapons like dragons, and I rolled a dice to see which breath weapon it would have for the round (then it would have to roll 4 through 6 to see if it could breath) - but each living head had that chance. So it was definitely fun, but very deadly encounter - two members of the party got hit to 0 hit points (out of the six) but I allow for Medicine Checks for other players to "stabilize" but it takes a turn doing so (they're basically taking their entire turn trying to bandage wounds, etc) - and DC is 10. DC goes up for every failed Medicine Check or failed Death Save. So some of the characters, were having to pause from attacking to stabilize fallen characters. But the party reacted well, and technically the hydra still had a few more Hit Points to it - but someone landed a Critical Hit - and it made for a great way to end the fight. I could have certainly kept pushing the rest of the Hydra's HP - but this seemed like a more enjoyable - and memorable for everyone - way to put an end - because when I said, "Describe to me how you kill the hydra." All of my players cheered.

So as long as someone doesn't do something tragically stupid, I try not to kill the characters. But death can happen. So far in the ... four years?... one character perished.

The trick as a DM is... I want my players to believe that their characters are in danger, but I don't actually want to kill them. Unless it's high level and I just feel like burning off some diamonds, but if they get revivified at the end of the combat are they really dead?

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

The trick as a DM is... I want my players to believe that their characters are in danger, but I don't actually want to kill them. Unless it's high level and I just feel like burning off some diamonds, but if they get revivified at the end of the combat are they really dead?

This! Bingo.

Well, Sir Tawmis, one character in four years def beats me. I think I kill off one two a year of late. Mostly because they want to see what the super obvious trap actually does.

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Well, Sir Tawmis, one character in four years def beats me. I think I kill off one two a year of late. Mostly because they want to see what the super obvious trap actually does.

Well, the one who did perish - made a foolish move. Then proceeded to fail the Death Saves, and no one tried to help (they were all away from him) and in combat.

That same person, went from their Cleric (who perished) and played a Warlock. The Warlock, a few years in, when I was going to allow him to create an Artificer created a story where we purposely were going to kill off the Warlock (who had established a reputation as a murderer) and "redeem" himself in a heroic moment. So technically, he did perish - but that was planned between the player and myself. (Created a monster that had Legendary actions that did massive damage that I targeted him with to kill him off and allow for the heroic moment).

I guess, technically, I killed two others - but they were players, early on who had left the game. Normally I don't kill off player characters who left - but these two were not coming back. So a few years in, their characters were revealed to be murdered by a Coven of Hags, seeking revenge and hunting down the other members of the party (that background story is still ongoing).

But, unpredicted/unplanned deaths - still just the one in that four year game. Plenty have dropped to 0, but been saved (through Spare the Dying, or Death Saves, etc).

In my Curse of Strahd campaign, one PC had a long term death, one PC managed to get killed and revivified several times. Lots of people got reduced to 0 hp.

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

In my Curse of Strahd campaign, one PC had a long term death, one PC managed to get killed and revivified several times. Lots of people got reduced to 0 hp.

Yeah, Curse of Strahd is a brutal campaign. I am a player in one session of it right now. The DM keeps throwing like 50 blights at us. lol

Quote from SirTawmis >>

Yeah, Curse of Strahd is a brutal campaign. I am a player in one session of it right now. The DM keeps throwing like 50 blights at us. lol

 I think you're supposed to run away from the armies of blights, though at higher levels you can probably just kill them all.

Quote from AEDorsay >>

Quote from Pantagruel666 >>

The trick as a DM is... I want my players to believe that their characters are in danger, but I don't actually want to kill them. Unless it's high level and I just feel like burning off some diamonds, but if they get revivified at the end of the combat are they really dead?

 

This! Bingo.

Yep, even back in the AD&D days in my experience of player death was pretty rare and usually the result of bad luck or stupidity (and occassionally PvP malice)...   Really comes down to the style of play and experience (both game and life) of the DM and players.  Players can accept character death if they had an out, they only resent it if they never had any chance.

Speaking of killing characters:  One thing I had fun doing was to let the players narrate their deaths.

It was in a shadow realm where one character had found herself in the recreation of the village she abandoned as a teen.  It had been attacked by dark elves and rather than fighting with her family she had run away.  Now she was back and it appeared the same dark elves were attacking it and over taking it again.  I looked at the party and said "okay, real talk, if you go in to fight, you are NOT coming out.  This is it for any character who goes in."

The party split.  One ran, and dragged another with her, the "main" character was going to redeem herself and a 4th member felt obligated to stand by her side.  No dice but we narrated out this epic final battle before they were each cut down.  The 'main' character fought next to her father and before he was cut down, she heard him say "I'm proud of you".  

Then, being a shadow realm, the realm kicked them all into a black void to "deal with" this heroic sacrifice on the part of two of them.  They all came out of it but it was a heck of a session and while no one ACTUALLY had a character death they really repsonded well do it being put on the table and were cool with the choice and the outcome.