Good morning. I just ran a game including two cr9s, a cr12, and then a 13. My party isnt' even 13th level and kicked the absolute crap out of the encounter. I need help making one that can provide a little bit of difficulty..
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"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
How many players are in your party? I had a party of 6 level 7s fight a CR16 and win AFTER a big mob encounter and PvP (i did give them the effects of a long rest halfway through the battle for Lore Reasons but what i'm saying is, like, i get it). My biggest advice is to follow the statblocks to the letter and use every ability available. With that many high CR monsters, they should have plenty of reactions, legendary actions, resistances, and battlefield control abilities that would make the players feel much more overwhelmed. Whether they're actually losing or not, a harder earned victory will always feel cooler.
Along with taking every word on the statblock to its extreme and having No Mercy (lots of my first encounters as a DM were far easier than they should have been because i was simply scared), i would say give the party an alternate goal for the fight. The monsters are here as a distraction because the main goal is to escape, or destroy a different object, or chase someone who's getting away, or solve a puzzle, or save an important NPC, or several of those at the same time, and the monsters are just here to use up the party's time and action economy so that they can't all focus on one thing at once. I pitted my lvl 4s against a buffed up to cr9 water elemental while they were working together to sail a ship for the first time, and it was a crazy and fun battle that they came NOWHERE NEAR winning bc it was way too hard for them, but i was using it as a way to introduce new NPCs who would save them from the creature.
basically have no mercy if you want them to be scared, have tons of fun with it if you want them to realize this isn't as big of a threat as its seeming, or pile on the goals and missions and immediate needs and dangers in order to force them to make quick decisions and prioritize. or do all of the above :D
Hmm, i would honestly just check and make sure that everyone's reading their character sheet right and that you're reading the statblocks right. Hope you're able to sort it out and get the awesome difficult encounters you want, but until then, i guess making your players feel powerful isn't a bad thing as long as everyone's having fun :)
This encounter design isn't "all-in-at-once", it's effectively three encounters back-to-back with no short rests in between. Individually, they are beatable. After the party is worn down, this becomes dicey. (That's code for: No one can actually predict the outcome with any absolute precision. Unless they possess some type of supernatural ability to tell the future and read minds.)
Each of the encounters that you proposed for a LVL 12 party of 4 PCs is hard or medium difficulty. If you threw all four monsters at the party, at the same time, and the party stomped the encounter, I would have to guess that something unmentioned has occurred.
Cultists as Pillars is a good tactic, so long as the "shielded" Archmage is unloading on the party the entire time. Putting your Glass Cannon in front of the party without something (Environment, Minion, Legendary Action/Resistance) blocking for them, might not allow time for them to get off their featured ability.
A star spawn seer is almost always accompanied by one or more star spawn hulks. Although the hulk is a worthy combatant in its own right, it’s also a vital part of a tactic often used by seers. When a seer deals psychic damage to a hulk, the hulk isn’t hurt, while the effect ricochets off the hulk and expands to assault other creatures.
Using context clues in the stat block and in the description can help develop tactics that the monster's might use. Also, Keith Amman has some good insight into how to make a monster more challenging tactically. As an example, an Adult Black Dragon can breathe water, why would it choose to face the party on land when it holds the advantage underwater? It can swim, and doesn't have to worry about suffocation. It's preferred combat tactics would involve flying and breath weapon, or swimming and grapple/melee Underwater Combat.
Including "Lair Actions" that emulate the environment's effects on the party can be challenging by themselves. There might be something of use in the Wilderness Survival or Unusual Environments sections. Use a spell effect like Sickening Radiance to mimic a radioactive source.
There are more ways to challenge a party than attacking their HP.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
What was the action economy for each fight (how many enemies at a time vs pcs)? What was the terrain like? What tactics did the enemies use?
I've noticed a trend in some games I've DM'd for combat to get a little static, with the players mobbing the bad guy and the bad guy staying rooted, surrounded, and nobody moving positions till the bad guy dies, no tactics, just smashing. Personally I've tried to move away from that kind of combat encounter. Terrain should effect where people want to be, there should be places that are more and less advantageous to be, places to regroup to, high, middle, and low ground, environmental hazards, the works.
At that level, your party should handle anything up to about CR22 if it's the only encounter they do on a long rest. A single CR13 creature will be a Medium encounter for them - they should smash it in a single turn.
You want at least one creature per character, and have them go on different initiatives (this makes a HUGE difference). Boss monsters need legendary actions equal to Party level minus one, so increase them. Also, increase important monsters' hp by 50% - monsters are tuned for a party of 4. Increasing by 25% sounds natural, but actually you'll want to boost by 50% due to action economy. Also, increase boss monsters' multiattacks - they are again tuned for a party of 4 not 5.
Figure out what your party is good at, and lock that down. If they have a rad cleric spittin impossible healz, then hit them with Blindness/Deafness, or Silence, or etc. If they have a tank that just can't fall, then take them over with an Aboleth or Succubi/Incubi and see if the party likes their meatshield then. You get what I'm saying.
Another thing to look at is sometimes it's just crappy rolls and your players doing the unexpected. My last session my 6 levels fives beat the crap out of a CR 13 Drow Shadow Inquisitor from creative uses of spells and just some really crappy rolls
If we have a better idea of what we're working with, I think we can give you more useful advice on how to avoid unexpected player domination of what should have been very difficult encounters.
What monsters were in that encounter that they unexpectedly wiped? CR is a poor summary of their abilities, as the specifics of a monster may make it exponentially harder for one party to fight than another.
In my experience, unless the CRs are massivly high, having less monsters than PCs almost always leads to the PCs winning easily. Action economy (how many Actions on one teams vs how many Actions are on the other team) seems to be more important than CR.
For five level 10-12 PCs, I'd want to put at least 10, maybe 15 enemies on the field.
For example, in the capstone battle for my game a couple of weeks ago.
Six level 12 characters -vs- Boss monster (was a transforming monster, started at CR 14, went to CR 19, had legendary actions and saves), 5 melee mooks (CR 5-8), 2 spellcasters (CR 6 IIRC), 2 big melee monsters (CR 9) and a boatload of little creatures (CR 3). There were also a lot of terrain features (hills to climb, extreme difficulty tangled plants, an obelisk, several standing stones, a summoning circle).
The battle went on across two evenings, and finished, if I remember right, on round 13.
Oh, I should also mention, several party members were dominated to fight for the bad guys… *evil GM laugh*
I have found that when the GM sticks a large number of minions (cultists, in my game) near the bad guy, parties seem to spend the first few rounds taking out the minions. In the big battle above, the boss monster didn't take any damage until round 5. I've learned to take advantage of this.
I also have players that complain that their party has no DPS (in a party with two wizards!). THey complained right up until the dominated monk killed one of the wizards.
In summary, if you want everyone to feel challenged (which does not necessarily mean actually being challenged) then you need more foes plus interesting terrain.
Six goblins is a cakewalk, and boring. Three melee hobgoblins plus three archer goblins hiding behind trees and taking pop-out shots is more interesting. Three melee hobgoblins plus three archer goblins plus three wargs is even better (especially if the wargs immediately grab downed PCs and drag them off into the underbrush).
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Good morning. I just ran a game including two cr9s, a cr12, and then a 13. My party isnt' even 13th level and kicked the absolute crap out of the encounter. I need help making one that can provide a little bit of difficulty..
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
My Homebrew Please click it, they have my family.
How many players are in your party? I had a party of 6 level 7s fight a CR16 and win AFTER a big mob encounter and PvP (i did give them the effects of a long rest halfway through the battle for Lore Reasons but what i'm saying is, like, i get it). My biggest advice is to follow the statblocks to the letter and use every ability available. With that many high CR monsters, they should have plenty of reactions, legendary actions, resistances, and battlefield control abilities that would make the players feel much more overwhelmed. Whether they're actually losing or not, a harder earned victory will always feel cooler.
Along with taking every word on the statblock to its extreme and having No Mercy (lots of my first encounters as a DM were far easier than they should have been because i was simply scared), i would say give the party an alternate goal for the fight. The monsters are here as a distraction because the main goal is to escape, or destroy a different object, or chase someone who's getting away, or solve a puzzle, or save an important NPC, or several of those at the same time, and the monsters are just here to use up the party's time and action economy so that they can't all focus on one thing at once. I pitted my lvl 4s against a buffed up to cr9 water elemental while they were working together to sail a ship for the first time, and it was a crazy and fun battle that they came NOWHERE NEAR winning bc it was way too hard for them, but i was using it as a way to introduce new NPCs who would save them from the creature.
basically have no mercy if you want them to be scared, have tons of fun with it if you want them to realize this isn't as big of a threat as its seeming, or pile on the goals and missions and immediate needs and dangers in order to force them to make quick decisions and prioritize. or do all of the above :D
:)
The party is an assortment of 10, 11, and 12s. 5 party members. They wiped out the encounter with barely a threat, which was okay, but annoying.
"Anyone can smith at the cosmic anvil, yet only I can forge a weapon as good as thee."
My Homebrew Please click it, they have my family.
Hmm, i would honestly just check and make sure that everyone's reading their character sheet right and that you're reading the statblocks right. Hope you're able to sort it out and get the awesome difficult encounters you want, but until then, i guess making your players feel powerful isn't a bad thing as long as everyone's having fun :)
:)
Each of the encounters that you proposed for a LVL 12 party of 4 PCs is hard or medium difficulty. If you threw all four monsters at the party, at the same time, and the party stomped the encounter, I would have to guess that something unmentioned has occurred.
Cultists as Pillars is a good tactic, so long as the "shielded" Archmage is unloading on the party the entire time. Putting your Glass Cannon in front of the party without something (Environment, Minion, Legendary Action/Resistance) blocking for them, might not allow time for them to get off their featured ability.
Excerpt from the Star Spawn Seer's description:
A star spawn seer is almost always accompanied by one or more star spawn hulks. Although the hulk is a worthy combatant in its own right, it’s also a vital part of a tactic often used by seers. When a seer deals psychic damage to a hulk, the hulk isn’t hurt, while the effect ricochets off the hulk and expands to assault other creatures.
Using context clues in the stat block and in the description can help develop tactics that the monster's might use. Also, Keith Amman has some good insight into how to make a monster more challenging tactically. As an example, an Adult Black Dragon can breathe water, why would it choose to face the party on land when it holds the advantage underwater? It can swim, and doesn't have to worry about suffocation. It's preferred combat tactics would involve flying and breath weapon, or swimming and grapple/melee Underwater Combat.
Including "Lair Actions" that emulate the environment's effects on the party can be challenging by themselves. There might be something of use in the Wilderness Survival or Unusual Environments sections. Use a spell effect like Sickening Radiance to mimic a radioactive source.
There are more ways to challenge a party than attacking their HP.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
What was the action economy for each fight (how many enemies at a time vs pcs)? What was the terrain like? What tactics did the enemies use?
I've noticed a trend in some games I've DM'd for combat to get a little static, with the players mobbing the bad guy and the bad guy staying rooted, surrounded, and nobody moving positions till the bad guy dies, no tactics, just smashing. Personally I've tried to move away from that kind of combat encounter. Terrain should effect where people want to be, there should be places that are more and less advantageous to be, places to regroup to, high, middle, and low ground, environmental hazards, the works.
At that level, your party should handle anything up to about CR22 if it's the only encounter they do on a long rest. A single CR13 creature will be a Medium encounter for them - they should smash it in a single turn.
You want at least one creature per character, and have them go on different initiatives (this makes a HUGE difference). Boss monsters need legendary actions equal to Party level minus one, so increase them. Also, increase important monsters' hp by 50% - monsters are tuned for a party of 4. Increasing by 25% sounds natural, but actually you'll want to boost by 50% due to action economy. Also, increase boss monsters' multiattacks - they are again tuned for a party of 4 not 5.
Figure out what your party is good at, and lock that down. If they have a rad cleric spittin impossible healz, then hit them with Blindness/Deafness, or Silence, or etc. If they have a tank that just can't fall, then take them over with an Aboleth or Succubi/Incubi and see if the party likes their meatshield then. You get what I'm saying.
NEVER SPLIT THE PARTY
Another thing to look at is sometimes it's just crappy rolls and your players doing the unexpected. My last session my 6 levels fives beat the crap out of a CR 13 Drow Shadow Inquisitor from creative uses of spells and just some really crappy rolls
If we have a better idea of what we're working with, I think we can give you more useful advice on how to avoid unexpected player domination of what should have been very difficult encounters.
What's each character's race and class/subclass?
What's each character's combat repertoire (heavy melee weapon, ranged weapon, AoE spells, etc)
What sort of magic items have you given them?
What monsters were in that encounter that they unexpectedly wiped? CR is a poor summary of their abilities, as the specifics of a monster may make it exponentially harder for one party to fight than another.
In my experience, unless the CRs are massivly high, having less monsters than PCs almost always leads to the PCs winning easily. Action economy (how many Actions on one teams vs how many Actions are on the other team) seems to be more important than CR.
For five level 10-12 PCs, I'd want to put at least 10, maybe 15 enemies on the field.
For example, in the capstone battle for my game a couple of weeks ago.
Six level 12 characters
-vs-
Boss monster (was a transforming monster, started at CR 14, went to CR 19, had legendary actions and saves), 5 melee mooks (CR 5-8), 2 spellcasters (CR 6 IIRC), 2 big melee monsters (CR 9) and a boatload of little creatures (CR 3). There were also a lot of terrain features (hills to climb, extreme difficulty tangled plants, an obelisk, several standing stones, a summoning circle).
The battle went on across two evenings, and finished, if I remember right, on round 13.
Oh, I should also mention, several party members were dominated to fight for the bad guys… *evil GM laugh*
I have found that when the GM sticks a large number of minions (cultists, in my game) near the bad guy, parties seem to spend the first few rounds taking out the minions. In the big battle above, the boss monster didn't take any damage until round 5. I've learned to take advantage of this.
I also have players that complain that their party has no DPS (in a party with two wizards!). THey complained right up until the dominated monk killed one of the wizards.
In summary, if you want everyone to feel challenged (which does not necessarily mean actually being challenged) then you need more foes plus interesting terrain.
Six goblins is a cakewalk, and boring.
Three melee hobgoblins plus three archer goblins hiding behind trees and taking pop-out shots is more interesting.
Three melee hobgoblins plus three archer goblins plus three wargs is even better (especially if the wargs immediately grab downed PCs and drag them off into the underbrush).