Recently, one of my players decided to quit playing his character because it was too underpowered compared to another party member's sorcerer druid multi-class. The one who quit was a half-elf ranger who fought with twin daggers of venom but at level 9 he wasnt doing enough damage to be relevant. He has since switched to playing as a wizard of the same race but is having less fun. I would appreciate any help to try and balance out these characters
I’m struggling to think of how a druid/sorcerer could feel overpowered compared to a wizard. Is the D/S turning all the high level slots they don’t have spells for into spell points or something? Still.
And what kind of campaign are you running? Damage output should only be one factor in feeling useful.
The ranger fells underpowered compared to the druid sorcerer and wants to switch to wizard. This is only an issue in combat but the players enjoy fights so much that it became a major issue.
What levels are they? What kind of druid/sorcerer? What spells do they cast? What ability are they (maybe) abusing to feel more powerful as a multiclassed caster that has two different spellcasting abilities?
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I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
I would really need to see character sheets, because I can't imagine a situation in which legally built druid/sorcerer at level 9 is better than a single class ranger (due to, well, druid/sorcerer being an absolutely terrible idea).
There isn't enough info to say for sure what is going on. A druid/sorcerer is not an optimized multiclass usually unless perhaps you rolled for stats and the character has 20 wisdom and 20 charisma but even then it is hard to see how it could be particularly OP.
Some comments -
1) Two weapon fighting is the least effective fighting style. Not terrible but it has tough time keeping up with other fighting styles. This is especially true perhaps when using daggers though those daggers get better for creatures susceptible to poisoning. An alternative is the Archery fighting style with the sharpshooter feat. Also, if this character doesn't have as good stats as the other (eg 14 dex) then it will feel even more behind since d4+2 damage/dagger isn't much compared to even d4+5 for a 20 dex character. (20 dex character will also hit far more often). (Even with 3 dagger attacks, the 20 dex character is likely to do more than twice the total damage of the 14 dex character 4.5 vs 7.5 average/hit + 15% greater hit probability)
2) Is the ranger comparing their attacks to a sorcerer fireball? Fireball is obviously more impressive and does more damage but it costs a spell slot. If you only have one big combat every day and the sorcerer gets to fire off 3 fireballs then almost any class is going to feel underpowered but that is because the character is using all their resources in one combat. Wizards would be the same.
3) There are some rules issues that could be making the sorcerer/druid seem more powerful if they aren't being played correctly.
- a sorcerer can not quicken a fireball and then cast ANY other spell EXCEPT a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. A sorcerer/druid has no way to cast two leveled spells in one turn (a fighter/caster using action surge is the exception but they can't cast a spell as a bonus action without limiting all other casting to cantrips)
- a sorcerer can't twin the druid conjure or summon spells - twin has a limited number of spells it works on
- a wildshaped druid can't cast spells even using the sorcerer subtle metamagic
- the character is preparing spells as both a 9 sorcerer and a level 9 druid instead of using the multiclassing rules and preparing spells for each class separately based on the respective class levels - the multiclass should have the higher level spell slots - they do NOT have the higher level spells.
There are probably a few other interactions that the rules prevent but there may also be some synergies between different archetypes but you didn't mention what subclasses each of the characters might be.
4) A straight wizard should have higher level spells than a druid/sorcerer multiclass - but if the player liked a dual wielding ranger then they may simply not enjoy playing a spellcaster.
However, I found a reasonably fun to play wizard type character was a 1 knowledge cleric/ X evoker wizard since it was fun to be able to drop fireballs and other AoE spells on the melee characters while preventing them from being damaged. The knowledge cleric level offered some nice skills, backup heals as well as armor and a shield for the wizard making them a lot less squishy. ... just in case it is the wizard build that is the issue.
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Anyway, with more details of what exactly is happening we're likely to be able to offer more useful comments.
Recently, one of my players decided to quit playing his character because it was too underpowered compared to another party member's sorcerer druid multi-class. The one who quit was a half-elf ranger who fought with twin daggers of venom but at level 9 he wasnt doing enough damage to be relevant. He has since switched to playing as a wizard of the same race but is having less fun. I would appreciate any help to try and balance out these characters
Can you post links to the character sheets?
I’m struggling to think of how a druid/sorcerer could feel overpowered compared to a wizard. Is the D/S turning all the high level slots they don’t have spells for into spell points or something? Still.
And what kind of campaign are you running? Damage output should only be one factor in feeling useful.
The ranger fells underpowered compared to the druid sorcerer and wants to switch to wizard. This is only an issue in combat but the players enjoy fights so much that it became a major issue.
What levels are they? What kind of druid/sorcerer? What spells do they cast? What ability are they (maybe) abusing to feel more powerful as a multiclassed caster that has two different spellcasting abilities?
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
I would really need to see character sheets, because I can't imagine a situation in which legally built druid/sorcerer at level 9 is better than a single class ranger (due to, well, druid/sorcerer being an absolutely terrible idea).
There isn't enough info to say for sure what is going on. A druid/sorcerer is not an optimized multiclass usually unless perhaps you rolled for stats and the character has 20 wisdom and 20 charisma but even then it is hard to see how it could be particularly OP.
Some comments -
1) Two weapon fighting is the least effective fighting style. Not terrible but it has tough time keeping up with other fighting styles. This is especially true perhaps when using daggers though those daggers get better for creatures susceptible to poisoning. An alternative is the Archery fighting style with the sharpshooter feat. Also, if this character doesn't have as good stats as the other (eg 14 dex) then it will feel even more behind since d4+2 damage/dagger isn't much compared to even d4+5 for a 20 dex character. (20 dex character will also hit far more often). (Even with 3 dagger attacks, the 20 dex character is likely to do more than twice the total damage of the 14 dex character 4.5 vs 7.5 average/hit + 15% greater hit probability)
2) Is the ranger comparing their attacks to a sorcerer fireball? Fireball is obviously more impressive and does more damage but it costs a spell slot. If you only have one big combat every day and the sorcerer gets to fire off 3 fireballs then almost any class is going to feel underpowered but that is because the character is using all their resources in one combat. Wizards would be the same.
3) There are some rules issues that could be making the sorcerer/druid seem more powerful if they aren't being played correctly.
- a sorcerer can not quicken a fireball and then cast ANY other spell EXCEPT a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. A sorcerer/druid has no way to cast two leveled spells in one turn (a fighter/caster using action surge is the exception but they can't cast a spell as a bonus action without limiting all other casting to cantrips)
- a sorcerer can't twin the druid conjure or summon spells - twin has a limited number of spells it works on
- a wildshaped druid can't cast spells even using the sorcerer subtle metamagic
- the character is preparing spells as both a 9 sorcerer and a level 9 druid instead of using the multiclassing rules and preparing spells for each class separately based on the respective class levels - the multiclass should have the higher level spell slots - they do NOT have the higher level spells.
There are probably a few other interactions that the rules prevent but there may also be some synergies between different archetypes but you didn't mention what subclasses each of the characters might be.
4) A straight wizard should have higher level spells than a druid/sorcerer multiclass - but if the player liked a dual wielding ranger then they may simply not enjoy playing a spellcaster.
However, I found a reasonably fun to play wizard type character was a 1 knowledge cleric/ X evoker wizard since it was fun to be able to drop fireballs and other AoE spells on the melee characters while preventing them from being damaged. The knowledge cleric level offered some nice skills, backup heals as well as armor and a shield for the wizard making them a lot less squishy. ... just in case it is the wizard build that is the issue.
-----------
Anyway, with more details of what exactly is happening we're likely to be able to offer more useful comments.