So, I started with battle arena games..naively told the players give me your best builds! Ended up with 3 out of 5 players playing oath-breaker paladins or some sort of hex blade dip. Also, why so many genasi players? 😅
Hex blade dip is VERY common. Some great stuff comes with no more than a one level dip, including proficiency with Medium Armor, Shields and Martial Weapons. Shield is one of the best first level spells and the charisma base for spellcasting works with Bard, Sorcerer and Paladin classes if you go those for the main.
Circle of the Moon druid is often considered OP for the first 4-5 levels because of some of the creatures it can turn into that just overshadow most fighters of similar level for hitpoints, attacks and tanking.
Chronurgy Wizard, level 9 for Arcane Abeyance is considered to be a supreme level of exploitation. Just read up on all the things you can do with an ability to instantly cast spells that have casting times longer than 1 turn/round and allowing other party members or even familiars to cast spell... Such as having your familiar cast "Find Familiar" and their familiar cast "Find Familiar" and on.
Peace and Twilight Cleric working hand in hand to let players pool hitpoints and all gain a big chunk of temporary hitpoints.
Peace and twilight clerics are broken barely play tested builds made to sell splat books. Moon druids aren’t broken. It’s a level 2-4 bonus with situational and temporary benefit. Hexblade dips are broken junk…which is why so may players take it-with zero thematic reason.
Once played a Creation bard. Crashed the stock market by singing 10 kilos of sausages into existence, selling it, then repeating. We ended up spending almost the entire session farming gold.
Forge Cleric casting Animate Objects on coins or pebbles = 10 attacks per round as a bonus action. The single most busted thing I had to deal with in my last campaign.
Also, as someone who's played a Stars druid, I was surprised by how strong that subclass can be in support and damage roles. Not as much of a tank as a moon druid, but good luck downing players while they're in Chalice mode, or breaking their concentration while they're in Dragon mode.
I just flat out ban animate objects and Druid summoning spells. It’s mainly because the ‘I summon 8 badgers or coins’ player just clogs up turn order too much. Other players immediately on their phone when that players turn is up.
So, I started with battle arena games..naively told the players give me your best builds! Ended up with 3 out of 5 players playing oath-breaker paladins or some sort of hex blade dip. Also, why so many genasi players? 😅
You get a resistance and some nice extra spells. it's a pretty good race
I just flat out ban animate objects and Druid summoning spells. It’s mainly because the ‘I summon 8 badgers or coins’ player just clogs up turn order too much. Other players immediately on their phone when that players turn is up.
It can be very quick if the player is organised. Especially if running digital.
You can just go to google and type in "roll 10 d20" or what ever and then count the number of dice above the number needed to hit and then go "roll x dy" to get the damage . It shouldn't take much longer than a regular turn . After all allot of Dms often run larger numbers of more complex numbers in a similar amount of time. I definitely don't recommend it for new players who have never dm'd though.
Peace and twilight clerics are broken barely play tested builds made to sell splat books. Moon druids aren’t broken. It’s a level 2-4 bonus with situational and temporary benefit. Hexblade dips are broken junk…which is why so may players take it-with zero thematic reason.
I don't think hex blades are broken, as a single class they probably perform worse than a standard eldritch blast build. They just improve multiclasses with their ability to change the modifier used to attack. i personally think the issue is probably with multi classing which crates all kinds of broken junk
As for broken options. I've had the artificer with 30+ ac, access to shield and silvery barbs and an immunity to crit damage. It led the dm to have to use unavoidable damage and special weapons to be able to make a dint. In one instance they ran a fighter with a [magicitem]vorpal sword[/magic item] and a crit fishing build. With elven accuracy, lucky and so many attacks a turn they had just under a 50% chance to decapitate at least once each turn. These kinds of tactics just break AC and make it meaningless.
The thing with summons is also that it screws up action economy. Like surround the boss with 8 pigs...not much damage but it clogs up action lanes. Its something that's a known exploit.
Speaking of know exploits, silvery barbs haha. Ive banned pretty much all Tasha's stuff. Also lucky feat and tasha's hideous laughter. These are just gamebreaking with little or zero cost spells and abilities that can trivialize encounters.
Yep, high ac artificier is just broken. I ban artificier outright for flavor reasons...also the ability to create magic items...who thought this was a good idea?
i think the new UA is in fact closing some of these holes. Particularly multiclass. The fear is that they are also creating new exploits unknowingly.
All paladins are broken. The tax on the class used to be alignment..now all players: hey I’m chaotic neutral vengeance paladin :D.
IMO paladin's are only broken in very specific scenarios. Basically things like arenas where you can just let loose without worrying about slots. But during longer adventure days it balances itself out pretty well. Also, paladin being so MAD balanced it out too.
People mentioned hexblade dips. Well they conveniently remove paladin's Multi Attribute Dependancy by pairing together your main and secondary stat, allowing you to focus on charisma and then putting some convenient bonuses to others.
Which, by the way is one of my biggest appeals in the build. When you look at characters like Geralt (the Witcher). Yes, they are very strong and fast. But they aren't fast and strong to the extreme. Their strength is in their incredible versatility. It's very difficult to build physically balanced AND effective characters in DnD. So this speaks to me. I like that 14str /14 dex battlemachine. But this kind of a build is the only way to do it. :)
I've never really had any problems with this. Mostly because my group has always had both; mega optimizers and RP heavy sub-optimizers :P
So basically the party brings balance to itself. One is always an insane Damage Hurricane that Wrecks Everything on its path. And at least one is like "Oh I don't get my dex bonus to attacking with the spear? That's ok. It's cool ya'll." And in our group the players don't mind the gap. It's not a contest, so some are just weaker than others.
I mostly have to deal with the latter and explain the importance of at least using a weapon that your class can use effectively. :D Usually I do some houseruling and give them a "feat" to use the spear with finesse or something. I know they're not pulling any optimization tricks on me anyways, so no risk.
The problem is the characters power level should be based around a 2-3 encounter per day threshold. I’m not sure about everyone else but if I ran 6-8 encounters per day(as prescribed) it would be 12 sessions before a week had passed 😅. 5e combats are notoriously long. In recent games I have had mundane combats run to 45 minutes each at 5th and 6th level. No way I’m throwing in a random encounter.
Further problem is if these happen in town or near a village..’dm can we get a short or long rest at tavern?’..no, you haven’t finished your daily quota of fights… the game isn’t balanced around the 6-8 fight per day recommendation..and honestly who wants to run that much combat in a single day? No time passes. How would the campaign logically progress… so, the nuke/burst short rest classes like paladin and warlock get exploited every time.
The problem is the characters power level should be based around a 2-3 encounter per day threshold. I’m not sure about everyone else but if I ran 6-8 encounters per day(as prescribed) it would be 12 sessions before a week had passed 😅. 5e combats are notoriously long. In recent games I have had mundane combats run to 45 minutes each at 5th and 6th level. No way I’m throwing in a random encounter.
Further problem is if these happen in town or near a village..’dm can we get a short or long rest at tavern?’..no, you haven’t finished your daily quota of fights… the game isn’t balanced around the 6-8 fight per day recommendation..and honestly who wants to run that much combat in a single day? No time passes. How would the campaign logically progress… so, the nuke/burst short rest classes like paladin and warlock get exploited every time.
Amen!
I think you hit the nail on the head here. Low level combat is quite straight forward and fast paced, but the closer you get to level 10, the more time-consuming even smaller battles become. Like you said, I don't want to create any more combat than I have to, because their role is already quite inflated. Then again low level combat is problematic for different reasons, which I won't go into in this thread.
I, too, have this very same issue with 5e. The random combat encounters in DnD don't really offer much, except waste precious session time and give the system its "Fix" to burn resources. This, to me, is very uninspiring and limits campaign design. If the system is built around having to consistently burn through resources to maintain balance, it's not a very balanced system. I always found this really taxing as the DM.
I would like DnD to be built around the "now" rather than the adventuring day, after which pretty much everything resets. Like maybe most abilities being At will (no rest or limit). Those would offer you the backbone balance of combat and they are plenty, encouraging engaging combat experiences and options in all stages of the game. Then you have powerful resources that regenerate quite slowly, that you can use to shift the balance of combat, if things are going south. Those you have to use with care, because wasting them over nothing could turn out to be a mistake later.
But right now, to me, DnD is incredibly boring without the Resources and difficult to balance with too many. So much of game design time goes into navigating this thicket. I think the game should be built/balanced around being inspiring even without the resources. Weapon Master is a step towards the right direction. :)
I think of the 6-8 encounters per day as a mixture of encounters for instance
1.Party meets a merchant struggling with a broken wagon wheel they help him fix it - they make a possible contact and source for future adventures.
2.The party come across band of cutthroats standing over a dying man in an alley a brief fight ensues and the cuthroats run away licking their wounds, and making enemies at the same time. The man dies from his wounds but not before begging the party to take his belt to his daughter. The party finds the belt has 200 platinum sown into belt and a magical pocket which holds the deed to a ship and other important documents . The party alerts the city guard but beats feet just i case
3. The party finds the daughter is enrolled a finishing school for noblewomen. A gentlemen who is not a guardsman is breaking the news that her father has been tragically murdered and that he her fathers partner would take care of her. The party asks for a private audience with the young lady and the headmistress and present her with the belt and the information that her father was only murdered in the last half bell and that her fathers partners knowledge and presence is suspicious.
4 The young lady does not want to own the ship but has no contacts and no knowledge of how mush something like that is worth. The party then remembers the Merchant they met out side of town this morning and offer to entreat him to see if he has any contact. She dispatches you with letter. the Partner now incensed tries to make the girl do what he wants the head mistress asks the party to leave politely and has the partner forcibly removed. The partner has a hurried discussion with some unseen figure in a carriage and rides off.
5. The characters make it to the the center of town before they are ambushed for every party member there is two ambusher Half are armed with melee the other half a re armed with light crossbows. the party leads a running battle to the Merchants estate where the guards cause the pursuers to back off.
6.The party battered and bleeding are seen to by the merchants physician and are given the address to upscale boarding house where they lodge. The Merchant promises to read the letter and give it all due thought. He also insists that he will have the young lady and yourselves for a meeting first thing in the morning
7. The following morning there is some tension as the partner finds the party eating breakfast and makes some vieled threats before being thrown out of boarding house by the proprietors husband. The Party departs for the meeting only to be stopped by the city guard for questioning in the death of the girls father as the person who the party had alerting the guards thought they might be guilty of the murder. A few tense moment as the party tell their story and hopes the guards believe them. Upon learning that you are meeting with the girl and Merchant the agree to escort the part to the destination.
8. At the merchants estate the party and guards are met by the Cutthroats from the day before and a few of their firends along with the Fathers partner seeing the Party in the company of the city guard the Partner tries to dismiss the lackies but the party makes the identification the three are quickly disabled by the party while the guards escort the Partner off for questioning. The session ends with the party hired to go to where the boat is, Hire a crew and return her to the nearest Harbor. For a modest reward of course the ship is 1000 leagues away on the far side of the continent.
the problem i see is that a lot of DMs only consider combat encounters the only encounters that matter. when they say 6- 8 encounters DM's should be reminded anything can be an encounter a street brawl, quiet word with a shadowy figure, chasing a thief through a deserted part of the city only for the road give way under you dropping you in the city that lies under the city or even chasing a dog that is dragging a satchel. Traps, Puzzle and riddles also have their place as encounters. However, they take a bit of planning
TL;DR There are many more types of encounters than just combat.
the problem i see is that a lot of DMs only consider combat encounters the only encounters that matter. when they say 6- 8 encounters DM's should be reminded anything can be an encounter a street brawl, quiet word with a shadowy figure, chasing a thief through a deserted part of the city only for the road give way under you dropping you in the city that lies under the city or even chasing a dog that is dragging a satchel. Traps, Puzzle and riddles also have their place as encounters. However, they take a bit of planning
TL;DR There are many more types of encounters than just combat.
Yes, but CR takes limited resources into account, and most players hoard those resources and don't use them on social encounters or exploration. So you can have 4 non-combat encounters before you throw a fight at your party, but it's functionally meaningless if they still have all their spells and HP when they face the monster.
It's interesting but I haven't found anything mentioned in this thread to be "broken".
My broken list is mostly limited to abuse of Simulacrum (which is easily remedied by saying there can be only one) and coffee locks if the DM allows the multiple short rest mechanic. Infinite simulacrums and infinite spell slots are "broken".
However, paladins, animate objects, conjure animals, peace and twilight clerics, hexblade dips, multiclassing, an AC of 30+ - none of that is broken.
1) The twilight cleric temporary hit point feature is powerful but easily dealt with by using stronger opponents or a bit more damage or intelligent opponents that use tactics. Focused attacks aren't really affected by a handful of extra hit points but it has a big effect against unintelligent opponents that distribute their attacks among the characters.
2) Peace cleric emboldening bond, protective bond and balm of peace are strong features. The healing doesn't scale with level, the d4 is usable on 1/turn and although it stacks with bless, the cleric will often have something better to cast.
3) Animate objects doesn't do magical damage - they are animated non-magical objects - which can be significant if the DM is concerned with damage.
4) The big issue with animate objects and conjure animals is rolling for the extra attacks. I've had a druid summon up a pack of CR1 deinonychus and their turn took less time than the fighter with 2 attacks vs the deinonychus pack with 12. They efficiently rolled color coordinated attack and damage dice at the same time, they knew the number they needed to hit (with that many attacks you quickly figure out what hits and what doesn't) and they added up the damage. Turn done. Fast, efficient, not an issue. So, using these spells isn't a spell problem, it's a player problem. If a player is willing to learn to be efficient then allow the spell, if not then that character perhaps had a difficulty learning the spell.
5) Paladins smite, rogues sneak attack - they do large burst damage. Paladins have cool auras, some healing, heavy armor, often have some challenges with ranged attacks. They are MAD (multiple attribute dependent). If you use point buy for stats then it is difficult for a paladin to get high stats in everything unless they multiclass into hexblade to use charisma for both attacks and spells. It is probably the main reason that a hexblade dip is popular for paladins though two levels also gives a good ranged attack (agonizing blast). However, none of that is "broken".
6) An AC of 30+ doesn't happen without the DM contributing magic items. An artificer tops out at a +2 armor enhancement modifier from an infusion. A battle smith gets the shield spell, the rest need to multiclass to get it. In plate (which only an armorer can wear) and a shield this gets the artificer to 22 + shield spell. The artificer doesn't get the same infusion multiple times so they can't stack +2s. I have an armorer artificer in an Eberron campaign with a 25AC before haste (unfortunately armorers don't get shield unless they multiclass). In this case the armorer has a +3 shield from one of the adventures. The character is level 19 so high AC isn't much of a surprise. The Ancient Dragon in the last fight didn't have too much trouble hitting the character when it wanted to - though it used spells and breath weapon more often than attacks.
And in those circumstances when an AC is really high for the available opposition, spell casters work wonders since there are always saves a character is weak against.
A lot of these are cool and require a player to invest a lot of resources to achieve. I simply let the player/character feel powerful in game for the efforts they have gone to and provide challenges in the narrative in other directions. In addition, there will be cases where their favorite tricks don't work due to effects like counterspell or dispel magic being deployed by the opponents. Sometimes there will be environmental effects like wild magic or magic dead zones to add some interesting effects.
-------
Finally, in terms of "powerful" abilities, I have to include the monk and stun. There are very few creatures immune to stun. In unmodified stat blocks, casters often have low con and few have con save proficiency. Even creatures with +8 to con saves will fail 1/2 the time or more at higher levels once the monk DC gets up to 17/18 or so (low tier 3 ish depending on stats and magic items). Even in a fight with multiple opponents, taking out a couple with stuns makes the entire fight much easier for the rest of the party and a level 10 monk has 10 ki to burn through - all of which is restored on a short rest. There are some decent crowd control spells out there too, but a stunned creature becomes a magnet for attacks rather than a crowd controlled target to avoid. Stunning a creature also naturally focuses the attention of the party on the one much weaker target, effectively encouraging the party to adopt good tactics :).
------
TL;DR Very few things are "broken", some things are a bit more powerful than others but aren't a big deal in play.
I’ve always found the ‘this particular class or ability or spell isn’t op/broken…..you just have to design entire encounters around them-problem solved!’ argument a bit circular. And certainly, official modules aren’t designed around them. As the system ages and everything is player facing, power creep is inevitable. It’s why adventurer’s league used to ban so much before frankly they gave up. Yes, flying races are broken..why should a level 1 character have a free use 3rd level spell?
The campaign specific abilities, for instance Strixhaven, ‘work’ in that setting but have no place in other material. If you as dm don’t want to get ran over by the players who scour the internet for articles titled ‘top 10 builds, spells, abilities that will make your dm hate you’…banning these/making quick table rulings and moving on is a must.
3) Animate objects doesn't do magical damage - they are animated non-magical objects - which can be significant if the DM is concerned with damage.
The type of damage isn't the issue, it's the fact that getting ten attacks that have a +8 to hit means that you're probably successfully landing hits most of the time AND you still have an action left. Sure, the damage is 1d4 + 4, but it still averages out to like 34 points of damage per round as a bonus action. Being able to deal more reliable damage than Fireball does as a bonus action and still cast a heavy-hitter spell like Guiding Bolt (if you're on your second round) or attack something an eleventh time on the same turn is the definition of broken.
3) Animate objects doesn't do magical damage - they are animated non-magical objects - which can be significant if the DM is concerned with damage.
The type of damage isn't the issue, it's the fact that getting ten attacks that have a +8 to hit means that you're probably successfully landing hits most of the time AND you still have an action left. Sure, the damage is 1d4 + 4, but it still averages out to like 34 points of damage per round as a bonus action. Being able to deal more reliable damage than Fireball does as a bonus action and still cast a heavy-hitter spell like Guiding Bolt (if you're on your second round) or attack something an eleventh time on the same turn is the definition of broken.
But Animate Objects is level 5 AND concentration. Fireball is level 3. That's a major difference. At level 5 you get all sorts of really powerful spells. If you are unlucky, you'll get one turn of those attacks before losing concentration or the objects get wiped with a single AoE spell. Because it's non-magical melee, enemies can be resistant, especially at level 9+ when you get the spell in the first place.
Does your average count a hit from all attacks? Because +8 at level 9 really isn't an automatic hit. Against 18 AC it's 50/50.
Animate Objects definitely isn't overpowered at all. It's pretty good in some situations, but it's not always even GOOD.
At level 5 you get spells like Telekinesis that allows you to lift, move and restrain actual Adult Red Dragons. Or Cone of Cold, which is AoE for 8d8. Say you hit 5 targets, which wouldn't be a first. That's a lot of damage.
3) Animate objects doesn't do magical damage - they are animated non-magical objects - which can be significant if the DM is concerned with damage.
The type of damage isn't the issue, it's the fact that getting ten attacks that have a +8 to hit means that you're probably successfully landing hits most of the time AND you still have an action left. Sure, the damage is 1d4 + 4, but it still averages out to like 34 points of damage per round as a bonus action. Being able to deal more reliable damage than Fireball does as a bonus action and still cast a heavy-hitter spell like Guiding Bolt (if you're on your second round) or attack something an eleventh time on the same turn is the definition of broken.
But Animate Objects is level 5 AND concentration. Fireball is level 3. That's a major difference. At level 5 you get all sorts of really powerful spells. If you are unlucky, you'll get one turn of those attacks before losing concentration or the objects get wiped with a single AoE spell. Because it's non-magical melee, enemies can be resistant, especially at level 9+ when you get the spell in the first place.
Does your average count a hit from all attacks? Because +8 at level 9 really isn't an automatic hit. Against 18 AC it's 50/50.
Animate Objects definitely isn't overpowered at all. It's pretty good in some situations, but it's not always even GOOD.
At level 5 you get spells like Telekinesis that allows you to lift, move and restrain actual Adult Red Dragons. Or Cone of Cold, which is AoE for 8d8. Say you hit 5 targets, which wouldn't be a first. That's a lot of damage.
First, the 50% hit rate is included in the average damage output of 34 per round. If the attacks all hit, the average damage output goes up to 65 per turn, and up to 90 with crits. As a bonus action.
What you're forgetting is that this thread is about subclass exploits. First of all, neither of the purportedly more powerful spells you list are cleric spells. Animate Objects is a Forge Cleric domain spell. Second, 5th level cleric spells are very low in damage output. The best you can get is Flame Strike, which is AOE and deals about 30 damage on a failed save. The fact that Animate Objects is concentration is not a weakness, it's a benefit because Flame Strike is over once you cast it, and Animate Objects (and your tiny army of murder items) lasts as many rounds as you can keep it up and the baddies can't knock them down. And, I say again, you still have your action every subsequent round to cast a non-concentration whammy like Inflict Wounds or Guiding Bolt. Spells which scale extremely well, deal good damage on their own, and in the case of Guiding Bolt increases the chances that your concentration spell will hit better.
Trust me from experience. DMing a powergamer Forge Cleric is no joke.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So, I started with battle arena games..naively told the players give me your best builds! Ended up with 3 out of 5 players playing oath-breaker paladins or some sort of hex blade dip. Also, why so many genasi players? 😅
Hex blade dip is VERY common. Some great stuff comes with no more than a one level dip, including proficiency with Medium Armor, Shields and Martial Weapons. Shield is one of the best first level spells and the charisma base for spellcasting works with Bard, Sorcerer and Paladin classes if you go those for the main.
Circle of the Moon druid is often considered OP for the first 4-5 levels because of some of the creatures it can turn into that just overshadow most fighters of similar level for hitpoints, attacks and tanking.
Chronurgy Wizard, level 9 for Arcane Abeyance is considered to be a supreme level of exploitation. Just read up on all the things you can do with an ability to instantly cast spells that have casting times longer than 1 turn/round and allowing other party members or even familiars to cast spell... Such as having your familiar cast "Find Familiar" and their familiar cast "Find Familiar" and on.
Peace and Twilight Cleric working hand in hand to let players pool hitpoints and all gain a big chunk of temporary hitpoints.
Peace and twilight clerics are broken barely play tested builds made to sell splat books. Moon druids aren’t broken. It’s a level 2-4 bonus with situational and temporary benefit. Hexblade dips are broken junk…which is why so may players take it-with zero thematic reason.
All paladins are broken. The tax on the class used to be alignment..now all players: hey I’m chaotic neutral vengeance paladin :D.
Once played a Creation bard. Crashed the stock market by singing 10 kilos of sausages into existence, selling it, then repeating. We ended up spending almost the entire session farming gold.
Studded Leather: He does exactly what I do
Natural Armor: But better
Forge Cleric casting Animate Objects on coins or pebbles = 10 attacks per round as a bonus action. The single most busted thing I had to deal with in my last campaign.
Also, as someone who's played a Stars druid, I was surprised by how strong that subclass can be in support and damage roles. Not as much of a tank as a moon druid, but good luck downing players while they're in Chalice mode, or breaking their concentration while they're in Dragon mode.
I just flat out ban animate objects and Druid summoning spells. It’s mainly because the ‘I summon 8 badgers or coins’ player just clogs up turn order too much. Other players immediately on their phone when that players turn is up.
You get a resistance and some nice extra spells. it's a pretty good race
It can be very quick if the player is organised. Especially if running digital.
You can just go to google and type in "roll 10 d20" or what ever and then count the number of dice above the number needed to hit and then go "roll x dy" to get the damage . It shouldn't take much longer than a regular turn . After all allot of Dms often run larger numbers of more complex numbers in a similar amount of time. I definitely don't recommend it for new players who have never dm'd though.
I don't think hex blades are broken, as a single class they probably perform worse than a standard eldritch blast build. They just improve multiclasses with their ability to change the modifier used to attack. i personally think the issue is probably with multi classing which crates all kinds of broken junk
As for broken options. I've had the artificer with 30+ ac, access to shield and silvery barbs and an immunity to crit damage. It led the dm to have to use unavoidable damage and special weapons to be able to make a dint. In one instance they ran a fighter with a [magicitem]vorpal sword[/magic item] and a crit fishing build. With elven accuracy, lucky and so many attacks a turn they had just under a 50% chance to decapitate at least once each turn. These kinds of tactics just break AC and make it meaningless.
The thing with summons is also that it screws up action economy. Like surround the boss with 8 pigs...not much damage but it clogs up action lanes. Its something that's a known exploit.
Speaking of know exploits, silvery barbs haha. Ive banned pretty much all Tasha's stuff. Also lucky feat and tasha's hideous laughter. These are just gamebreaking with little or zero cost spells and abilities that can trivialize encounters.
Yep, high ac artificier is just broken. I ban artificier outright for flavor reasons...also the ability to create magic items...who thought this was a good idea?
i think the new UA is in fact closing some of these holes. Particularly multiclass. The fear is that they are also creating new exploits unknowingly.
IMO paladin's are only broken in very specific scenarios. Basically things like arenas where you can just let loose without worrying about slots. But during longer adventure days it balances itself out pretty well. Also, paladin being so MAD balanced it out too.
People mentioned hexblade dips. Well they conveniently remove paladin's Multi Attribute Dependancy by pairing together your main and secondary stat, allowing you to focus on charisma and then putting some convenient bonuses to others.
Which, by the way is one of my biggest appeals in the build. When you look at characters like Geralt (the Witcher). Yes, they are very strong and fast. But they aren't fast and strong to the extreme. Their strength is in their incredible versatility. It's very difficult to build physically balanced AND effective characters in DnD. So this speaks to me. I like that 14str /14 dex battlemachine. But this kind of a build is the only way to do it. :)
Finland GMT/UTC +2
Answering the original topic.
I've never really had any problems with this. Mostly because my group has always had both; mega optimizers and RP heavy sub-optimizers :P
So basically the party brings balance to itself. One is always an insane Damage Hurricane that Wrecks Everything on its path. And at least one is like "Oh I don't get my dex bonus to attacking with the spear? That's ok. It's cool ya'll." And in our group the players don't mind the gap. It's not a contest, so some are just weaker than others.
I mostly have to deal with the latter and explain the importance of at least using a weapon that your class can use effectively. :D Usually I do some houseruling and give them a "feat" to use the spear with finesse or something. I know they're not pulling any optimization tricks on me anyways, so no risk.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
The problem is the characters power level should be based around a 2-3 encounter per day threshold. I’m not sure about everyone else but if I ran 6-8 encounters per day(as prescribed) it would be 12 sessions before a week had passed 😅. 5e combats are notoriously long. In recent games I have had mundane combats run to 45 minutes each at 5th and 6th level. No way I’m throwing in a random encounter.
Further problem is if these happen in town or near a village..’dm can we get a short or long rest at tavern?’..no, you haven’t finished your daily quota of fights… the game isn’t balanced around the 6-8 fight per day recommendation..and honestly who wants to run that much combat in a single day? No time passes. How would the campaign logically progress… so, the nuke/burst short rest classes like paladin and warlock get exploited every time.
Amen!
I think you hit the nail on the head here. Low level combat is quite straight forward and fast paced, but the closer you get to level 10, the more time-consuming even smaller battles become. Like you said, I don't want to create any more combat than I have to, because their role is already quite inflated. Then again low level combat is problematic for different reasons, which I won't go into in this thread.
I, too, have this very same issue with 5e. The random combat encounters in DnD don't really offer much, except waste precious session time and give the system its "Fix" to burn resources. This, to me, is very uninspiring and limits campaign design. If the system is built around having to consistently burn through resources to maintain balance, it's not a very balanced system. I always found this really taxing as the DM.
I would like DnD to be built around the "now" rather than the adventuring day, after which pretty much everything resets. Like maybe most abilities being At will (no rest or limit). Those would offer you the backbone balance of combat and they are plenty, encouraging engaging combat experiences and options in all stages of the game. Then you have powerful resources that regenerate quite slowly, that you can use to shift the balance of combat, if things are going south. Those you have to use with care, because wasting them over nothing could turn out to be a mistake later.
But right now, to me, DnD is incredibly boring without the Resources and difficult to balance with too many. So much of game design time goes into navigating this thicket. I think the game should be built/balanced around being inspiring even without the resources. Weapon Master is a step towards the right direction. :)
Finland GMT/UTC +2
I think of the 6-8 encounters per day as a mixture of encounters for instance
1.Party meets a merchant struggling with a broken wagon wheel they help him fix it - they make a possible contact and source for future adventures.
2.The party come across band of cutthroats standing over a dying man in an alley a brief fight ensues and the cuthroats run away licking their wounds, and making enemies at the same time. The man dies from his wounds but not before begging the party to take his belt to his daughter. The party finds the belt has 200 platinum sown into belt and a magical pocket which holds the deed to a ship and other important documents . The party alerts the city guard but beats feet just i case
3. The party finds the daughter is enrolled a finishing school for noblewomen. A gentlemen who is not a guardsman is breaking the news that her father has been tragically murdered and that he her fathers partner would take care of her. The party asks for a private audience with the young lady and the headmistress and present her with the belt and the information that her father was only murdered in the last half bell and that her fathers partners knowledge and presence is suspicious.
4 The young lady does not want to own the ship but has no contacts and no knowledge of how mush something like that is worth. The party then remembers the Merchant they met out side of town this morning and offer to entreat him to see if he has any contact. She dispatches you with letter. the Partner now incensed tries to make the girl do what he wants the head mistress asks the party to leave politely and has the partner forcibly removed. The partner has a hurried discussion with some unseen figure in a carriage and rides off.
5. The characters make it to the the center of town before they are ambushed for every party member there is two ambusher Half are armed with melee the other half a re armed with light crossbows. the party leads a running battle to the Merchants estate where the guards cause the pursuers to back off.
6.The party battered and bleeding are seen to by the merchants physician and are given the address to upscale boarding house where they lodge. The Merchant promises to read the letter and give it all due thought. He also insists that he will have the young lady and yourselves for a meeting first thing in the morning
7. The following morning there is some tension as the partner finds the party eating breakfast and makes some vieled threats before being thrown out of boarding house by the proprietors husband. The Party departs for the meeting only to be stopped by the city guard for questioning in the death of the girls father as the person who the party had alerting the guards thought they might be guilty of the murder. A few tense moment as the party tell their story and hopes the guards believe them. Upon learning that you are meeting with the girl and Merchant the agree to escort the part to the destination.
8. At the merchants estate the party and guards are met by the Cutthroats from the day before and a few of their firends along with the Fathers partner seeing the Party in the company of the city guard the Partner tries to dismiss the lackies but the party makes the identification the three are quickly disabled by the party while the guards escort the Partner off for questioning. The session ends with the party hired to go to where the boat is, Hire a crew and return her to the nearest Harbor. For a modest reward of course the ship is 1000 leagues away on the far side of the continent.
the problem i see is that a lot of DMs only consider combat encounters the only encounters that matter. when they say 6- 8 encounters DM's should be reminded anything can be an encounter a street brawl, quiet word with a shadowy figure, chasing a thief through a deserted part of the city only for the road give way under you dropping you in the city that lies under the city or even chasing a dog that is dragging a satchel. Traps, Puzzle and riddles also have their place as encounters. However, they take a bit of planning
TL;DR There are many more types of encounters than just combat.
Just published a map on DriveThruRPG The Forgotten Temple
Yes, but CR takes limited resources into account, and most players hoard those resources and don't use them on social encounters or exploration. So you can have 4 non-combat encounters before you throw a fight at your party, but it's functionally meaningless if they still have all their spells and HP when they face the monster.
It's interesting but I haven't found anything mentioned in this thread to be "broken".
My broken list is mostly limited to abuse of Simulacrum (which is easily remedied by saying there can be only one) and coffee locks if the DM allows the multiple short rest mechanic. Infinite simulacrums and infinite spell slots are "broken".
However, paladins, animate objects, conjure animals, peace and twilight clerics, hexblade dips, multiclassing, an AC of 30+ - none of that is broken.
1) The twilight cleric temporary hit point feature is powerful but easily dealt with by using stronger opponents or a bit more damage or intelligent opponents that use tactics. Focused attacks aren't really affected by a handful of extra hit points but it has a big effect against unintelligent opponents that distribute their attacks among the characters.
2) Peace cleric emboldening bond, protective bond and balm of peace are strong features. The healing doesn't scale with level, the d4 is usable on 1/turn and although it stacks with bless, the cleric will often have something better to cast.
3) Animate objects doesn't do magical damage - they are animated non-magical objects - which can be significant if the DM is concerned with damage.
4) The big issue with animate objects and conjure animals is rolling for the extra attacks. I've had a druid summon up a pack of CR1 deinonychus and their turn took less time than the fighter with 2 attacks vs the deinonychus pack with 12. They efficiently rolled color coordinated attack and damage dice at the same time, they knew the number they needed to hit (with that many attacks you quickly figure out what hits and what doesn't) and they added up the damage. Turn done. Fast, efficient, not an issue. So, using these spells isn't a spell problem, it's a player problem. If a player is willing to learn to be efficient then allow the spell, if not then that character perhaps had a difficulty learning the spell.
5) Paladins smite, rogues sneak attack - they do large burst damage. Paladins have cool auras, some healing, heavy armor, often have some challenges with ranged attacks. They are MAD (multiple attribute dependent). If you use point buy for stats then it is difficult for a paladin to get high stats in everything unless they multiclass into hexblade to use charisma for both attacks and spells. It is probably the main reason that a hexblade dip is popular for paladins though two levels also gives a good ranged attack (agonizing blast). However, none of that is "broken".
6) An AC of 30+ doesn't happen without the DM contributing magic items. An artificer tops out at a +2 armor enhancement modifier from an infusion. A battle smith gets the shield spell, the rest need to multiclass to get it. In plate (which only an armorer can wear) and a shield this gets the artificer to 22 + shield spell. The artificer doesn't get the same infusion multiple times so they can't stack +2s. I have an armorer artificer in an Eberron campaign with a 25AC before haste (unfortunately armorers don't get shield unless they multiclass). In this case the armorer has a +3 shield from one of the adventures. The character is level 19 so high AC isn't much of a surprise. The Ancient Dragon in the last fight didn't have too much trouble hitting the character when it wanted to - though it used spells and breath weapon more often than attacks.
And in those circumstances when an AC is really high for the available opposition, spell casters work wonders since there are always saves a character is weak against.
A lot of these are cool and require a player to invest a lot of resources to achieve. I simply let the player/character feel powerful in game for the efforts they have gone to and provide challenges in the narrative in other directions. In addition, there will be cases where their favorite tricks don't work due to effects like counterspell or dispel magic being deployed by the opponents. Sometimes there will be environmental effects like wild magic or magic dead zones to add some interesting effects.
-------
Finally, in terms of "powerful" abilities, I have to include the monk and stun. There are very few creatures immune to stun. In unmodified stat blocks, casters often have low con and few have con save proficiency. Even creatures with +8 to con saves will fail 1/2 the time or more at higher levels once the monk DC gets up to 17/18 or so (low tier 3 ish depending on stats and magic items). Even in a fight with multiple opponents, taking out a couple with stuns makes the entire fight much easier for the rest of the party and a level 10 monk has 10 ki to burn through - all of which is restored on a short rest. There are some decent crowd control spells out there too, but a stunned creature becomes a magnet for attacks rather than a crowd controlled target to avoid. Stunning a creature also naturally focuses the attention of the party on the one much weaker target, effectively encouraging the party to adopt good tactics :).
------
TL;DR Very few things are "broken", some things are a bit more powerful than others but aren't a big deal in play.
I’ve always found the ‘this particular class or ability or spell isn’t op/broken…..you just have to design entire encounters around them-problem solved!’ argument a bit circular. And certainly, official modules aren’t designed around them. As the system ages and everything is player facing, power creep is inevitable. It’s why adventurer’s league used to ban so much before frankly they gave up. Yes, flying races are broken..why should a level 1 character have a free use 3rd level spell?
The campaign specific abilities, for instance Strixhaven, ‘work’ in that setting but have no place in other material. If you as dm don’t want to get ran over by the players who scour the internet for articles titled ‘top 10 builds, spells, abilities that will make your dm hate you’…banning these/making quick table rulings and moving on is a must.
The type of damage isn't the issue, it's the fact that getting ten attacks that have a +8 to hit means that you're probably successfully landing hits most of the time AND you still have an action left. Sure, the damage is 1d4 + 4, but it still averages out to like 34 points of damage per round as a bonus action. Being able to deal more reliable damage than Fireball does as a bonus action and still cast a heavy-hitter spell like Guiding Bolt (if you're on your second round) or attack something an eleventh time on the same turn is the definition of broken.
But Animate Objects is level 5 AND concentration. Fireball is level 3. That's a major difference. At level 5 you get all sorts of really powerful spells.
If you are unlucky, you'll get one turn of those attacks before losing concentration or the objects get wiped with a single AoE spell. Because it's non-magical melee, enemies can be resistant, especially at level 9+ when you get the spell in the first place.
Does your average count a hit from all attacks? Because +8 at level 9 really isn't an automatic hit. Against 18 AC it's 50/50.
Animate Objects definitely isn't overpowered at all. It's pretty good in some situations, but it's not always even GOOD.
At level 5 you get spells like Telekinesis that allows you to lift, move and restrain actual Adult Red Dragons.
Or Cone of Cold, which is AoE for 8d8. Say you hit 5 targets, which wouldn't be a first. That's a lot of damage.
Finland GMT/UTC +2
First, the 50% hit rate is included in the average damage output of 34 per round. If the attacks all hit, the average damage output goes up to 65 per turn, and up to 90 with crits. As a bonus action.
What you're forgetting is that this thread is about subclass exploits. First of all, neither of the purportedly more powerful spells you list are cleric spells. Animate Objects is a Forge Cleric domain spell. Second, 5th level cleric spells are very low in damage output. The best you can get is Flame Strike, which is AOE and deals about 30 damage on a failed save. The fact that Animate Objects is concentration is not a weakness, it's a benefit because Flame Strike is over once you cast it, and Animate Objects (and your tiny army of murder items) lasts as many rounds as you can keep it up and the baddies can't knock them down. And, I say again, you still have your action every subsequent round to cast a non-concentration whammy like Inflict Wounds or Guiding Bolt. Spells which scale extremely well, deal good damage on their own, and in the case of Guiding Bolt increases the chances that your concentration spell will hit better.
Trust me from experience. DMing a powergamer Forge Cleric is no joke.