How much Blindsight to too much? (In the interests of moving the hobby fwd, I"m using the word "lineage" in place of "race" or "species". Not using the Dragonlance definition of "lineage" to be clear.)
I am developing an optional lineage that my PCs can select from during character creation. Currently, I am thinking 15 foot Blindsight, 30 foot detect invisibility (but still disadvantage at actually hitting the creature) plus 60 foot darkvision. My question is whether 15 foot Blindsight plus an additional 15' detect invisibility is too generous or not generous enough.
The caveat is that I am balancing this powerful ability by making this lineage slow on land relative to...well, everybody else.
Blind Fighting You have blindsight with a range of 10 feet. Within that range, you can effectively see anything that isn’t behind total cover, even if you’re blinded or in darkness. Moreover, you can see an invisible creature within that range, unless the creature successfully hides from you.
Slow movement speed can also be a real pain if they are melee and enemies kite them. Short blindsight ranges will also only really be usable in melee
I think that both the 15' blindsight and the 30' detect invisibility is too much. I'd limit it to just one of the options. Blindsight, in my rulings, automatically allow the character to detect things that are Invisible because it falls under a "special sense".
Your balancing this by slowing the character down on land is going to discourage them from being a melee combatant.
How slow are we talking? Because to me I think good vision and slow just makes you a great archer.
By slow I mean 20 feet on land. They don't have eagle-like eye-sight, though. It's that their senses work differnt from most humanoids at close range. This is not really a strong archer Lineage unless someone wants to specialize in near-range crossbows, which is risky probably.
I should have maybe also put that they are faster (40 feet) in the water and have limited Water Dependency where being away from water too long imposes Exhaustion levels on them. This might be extreme, but I feel it's both thematic since they are from the sea and a good way to balance a powerful ability like Blindsight 15' and detecting invisible creatures (still disadvantage to hit, though) at 30'.
I think that both the 15' blindsight and the 30' detect invisibility is too much. I'd limit it to just one of the options. Blindsight, in my rulings, automatically allow the character to detect things that are Invisible because it falls under a "special sense".
Your balancing this by slowing the character down on land is going to discourage them from being a melee combatant.
A lot of adventures will be in the water or next to the water, but the limitations on land speed and the limited water dependency in my above post are how I plan to balance the strong ability that is lineage Blindsight.
The likely strengths of a PC built using this lineage (I'm guessing) are with fighting with polearms, thrown weapons, or being a gish.
10ft Blindsight and ability to see Invisible creatures seems to be the default range. The Draconic Senses Gift in Fizban’s Treasury also uses 10 ft.
If you were wanting to create a character lineage for use in any campaign, then a package of 10ft Blindsight, Darkvision (60ft) and a swimming speed (probably both walking and swimming set to 30 ft as the default) would seem quite balanced. Ability to breathe air and water would seem like an obvious addition. The Triton and Sea-Elf are the natural comparators. They also both get Cold resistance and some form of limited communication with sea creatures. The Sea-Elf then adds all the usual Elf features and the Triton some spell-casting. Blindsight doesn’t seem an over-powered substitute for those features.
From your description, it should be about the same in terms of power as the blind fighting fighting style. This can be picked up with one level in the fighter class (along with a number of other benefits) or it could be picked up through a feat. Blind fighting gives the character blindsight within 10' radius. Blind sight also lets you see invisible creatures within that distance unless they are behind total cover so blind sight already gives the ability to detect invisible creatures.
Personally, wouldn't I give up 10' of movement for a 10' blindsight species/lineage ability. I already find the 5' penalty for some small species to be too much in many circumstances.
If you want to add this to a lineage then I'd just limit or reduce any other species benefits (not movement). I don't think 10' blind sight is that big a deal and generally less powerful than magic resistance and some other lineage/species traits that already exist.
A lot of adventures will be in the water or next to the water, but the limitations on land speed and the limited water dependency in my above post are how I plan to balance the strong ability that is lineage Blindsight.
The likely strengths of a PC built using this lineage (I'm guessing) are with fighting with polearms, thrown weapons, or being a gish.
5e underwater combat rules state that melee combatants have disadvantage with attacks that aren't a dagger, javelin, shortsword, spear or trident. Ranged weapons have disadvantage unless they're a crossbow or a thrown one of the previously mentioned. (Technically the rules mention Nets too. But Nets are a ranged weapon with 5'/15' range.)
Close ranged Crossbow specialization will include the Crossbow Expert feat. This will allow the no disadvantage within 5' combat for any ranged attack (including spells and the aforementioned net). Not have to worry about the loading property. And allow them to use a hand crossbow for an extra attack with their bonus action. No matter their career, they're getting a minimum of two attacks per round with a hand crossbow.
With a Detect Invisibility allowing an extra 15' range to "see" the invisible creatures that's going to allow the character to move in to the Blindsight range and lose the disadvantage.
I think this lineage is going to encourage crossbow usage. And if there is a lot of water combat it's going to end up being pretty powerful compared to other lineages. Especially those without a swim speed. If I were to make a fighter with this lineage I would pick up Crossbow Expert at level 4, Mobile at level 6 (to counteract the movement penalty on land and increase movement in water) and Sharpshooter at level 8. That way if an NPC tried to kite me on land they've got to get out of the crossbow's long range. And I could kite NPCs when my character was in the water.
5e underwater combat rules state that melee combatants have disadvantage with attacks that aren't a dagger, javelin, shortsword, spear or trident. Ranged weapons have disadvantage unless they're a crossbow or a thrown one of the previously mentioned. (Technically the rules mention Nets too. But Nets are a ranged weapon with 5'/15' range.)
The proposed new species would have a swim speed, which means those restrictions won't apply.
The proposed new species would have a swim speed, which means those restrictions won't apply.
Exactly. The other characters without this lineage (unless they chose Triton or similar) would be hamstringed during water combat. This lineage wouldn't. Although I believe the limitation on ranged weapons still applies even without a swim speed, but I could be wrong.
The proposed new species would have a swim speed, which means those restrictions won't apply.
Exactly. The other characters without this lineage (unless they chose Triton or similar) would be hamstringed during water combat. This lineage wouldn't. Although I believe the limitation on ranged weapons still applies even without a swim speed, but I could be wrong.
I mean, underwater combat is challenging for the average party. So comparing no-swim speed to swim speed is inherently unfair most of the time.
If we're going to break this down comparing it to Triton, which is already one of the stronger aquatic options both before after MMPM, then we should do directly using the most mechanically relevant features:
Triton
* Land and Water speed: 30' and 30'
* Darkvision 60'
* Resist Cold-type damage
* Free spells: Fog Cloud, Gust of Wind, Wall of Water (changed to Water Walk in MMPM)
My Custom Lineage
* Land and Water speed: 20' and 40' respectively
* 15' Blindsight and additional 15' to detect Invisible creatures (no improve to hit rolls)
* 60' Darkvision
* 1 skill from small list, 1 tool prof.
* Semi-water dependence of needing water immersion ever 12 hr to avoid Exhaustion
With a Detect Invisibility allowing an extra 15' range to "see" the invisible creatures that's going to allow the character to move in to the Blindsight range and lose the disadvantage.
I think this lineage is going to encourage crossbow usage. And if there is a lot of water combat it's going to end up being pretty powerful compared to other lineages. Especially those without a swim speed. If I were to make a fighter with this lineage I would pick up Crossbow Expert at level 4, Mobile at level 6 (to counteract the movement penalty on land and increase movement in water) and Sharpshooter at level 8. That way if an NPC tried to kite me on land they've got to get out of the crossbow's long range. And I could kite NPCs when my character was in the water.
I'm glad you picked up on how the extra 15' for detecting invisible creatures without a direct benefit for attack rolls does make a difference. I knew that something at like 30' Blindsight could be really strong in a lot of circumstances (shooting within the AoE of spells like Fog Cloud or the Darkness spell) so I reduced it to 15'. But as people like Theleny and David have indicated, 15' is only a small improvement from the 10' offered by Blindfighting. So my 15' Blindsight, 30' detect invisible is a compromise.
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How much Blindsight to too much? (In the interests of moving the hobby fwd, I"m using the word "lineage" in place of "race" or "species". Not using the Dragonlance definition of "lineage" to be clear.)
I am developing an optional lineage that my PCs can select from during character creation. Currently, I am thinking 15 foot Blindsight, 30 foot detect invisibility (but still disadvantage at actually hitting the creature) plus 60 foot darkvision. My question is whether 15 foot Blindsight plus an additional 15' detect invisibility is too generous or not generous enough.
The caveat is that I am balancing this powerful ability by making this lineage slow on land relative to...well, everybody else.
How slow are we talking? Because to me I think good vision and slow just makes you a great archer.
I would have just given them blind fighting
Slow movement speed can also be a real pain if they are melee and enemies kite them. Short blindsight ranges will also only really be usable in melee
I think that both the 15' blindsight and the 30' detect invisibility is too much. I'd limit it to just one of the options. Blindsight, in my rulings, automatically allow the character to detect things that are Invisible because it falls under a "special sense".
Your balancing this by slowing the character down on land is going to discourage them from being a melee combatant.
By slow I mean 20 feet on land. They don't have eagle-like eye-sight, though. It's that their senses work differnt from most humanoids at close range. This is not really a strong archer Lineage unless someone wants to specialize in near-range crossbows, which is risky probably.
I should have maybe also put that they are faster (40 feet) in the water and have limited Water Dependency where being away from water too long imposes Exhaustion levels on them. This might be extreme, but I feel it's both thematic since they are from the sea and a good way to balance a powerful ability like Blindsight 15' and detecting invisible creatures (still disadvantage to hit, though) at 30'.
A lot of adventures will be in the water or next to the water, but the limitations on land speed and the limited water dependency in my above post are how I plan to balance the strong ability that is lineage Blindsight.
The likely strengths of a PC built using this lineage (I'm guessing) are with fighting with polearms, thrown weapons, or being a gish.
10ft Blindsight and ability to see Invisible creatures seems to be the default range. The Draconic Senses Gift in Fizban’s Treasury also uses 10 ft.
If you were wanting to create a character lineage for use in any campaign, then a package of 10ft Blindsight, Darkvision (60ft) and a swimming speed (probably both walking and swimming set to 30 ft as the default) would seem quite balanced. Ability to breathe air and water would seem like an obvious addition. The Triton and Sea-Elf are the natural comparators. They also both get Cold resistance and some form of limited communication with sea creatures. The Sea-Elf then adds all the usual Elf features and the Triton some spell-casting. Blindsight doesn’t seem an over-powered substitute for those features.
From your description, it should be about the same in terms of power as the blind fighting fighting style. This can be picked up with one level in the fighter class (along with a number of other benefits) or it could be picked up through a feat. Blind fighting gives the character blindsight within 10' radius. Blind sight also lets you see invisible creatures within that distance unless they are behind total cover so blind sight already gives the ability to detect invisible creatures.
Personally, wouldn't I give up 10' of movement for a 10' blindsight species/lineage ability. I already find the 5' penalty for some small species to be too much in many circumstances.
If you want to add this to a lineage then I'd just limit or reduce any other species benefits (not movement). I don't think 10' blind sight is that big a deal and generally less powerful than magic resistance and some other lineage/species traits that already exist.
They seem to be removing the 5’ movement penalty from Dwarves and small races in the 2024 PHB.
5e underwater combat rules state that melee combatants have disadvantage with attacks that aren't a dagger, javelin, shortsword, spear or trident. Ranged weapons have disadvantage unless they're a crossbow or a thrown one of the previously mentioned. (Technically the rules mention Nets too. But Nets are a ranged weapon with 5'/15' range.)
Close ranged Crossbow specialization will include the Crossbow Expert feat. This will allow the no disadvantage within 5' combat for any ranged attack (including spells and the aforementioned net). Not have to worry about the loading property. And allow them to use a hand crossbow for an extra attack with their bonus action. No matter their career, they're getting a minimum of two attacks per round with a hand crossbow.
With a Detect Invisibility allowing an extra 15' range to "see" the invisible creatures that's going to allow the character to move in to the Blindsight range and lose the disadvantage.
I think this lineage is going to encourage crossbow usage. And if there is a lot of water combat it's going to end up being pretty powerful compared to other lineages. Especially those without a swim speed. If I were to make a fighter with this lineage I would pick up Crossbow Expert at level 4, Mobile at level 6 (to counteract the movement penalty on land and increase movement in water) and Sharpshooter at level 8. That way if an NPC tried to kite me on land they've got to get out of the crossbow's long range. And I could kite NPCs when my character was in the water.
The proposed new species would have a swim speed, which means those restrictions won't apply.
Exactly. The other characters without this lineage (unless they chose Triton or similar) would be hamstringed during water combat. This lineage wouldn't. Although I believe the limitation on ranged weapons still applies even without a swim speed, but I could be wrong.
I mean, underwater combat is challenging for the average party. So comparing no-swim speed to swim speed is inherently unfair most of the time.
If we're going to break this down comparing it to Triton, which is already one of the stronger aquatic options both before after MMPM, then we should do directly using the most mechanically relevant features:
Triton
* Land and Water speed: 30' and 30'
* Darkvision 60'
* Resist Cold-type damage
* Free spells: Fog Cloud, Gust of Wind, Wall of Water (changed to Water Walk in MMPM)
My Custom Lineage
* Land and Water speed: 20' and 40' respectively
* 15' Blindsight and additional 15' to detect Invisible creatures (no improve to hit rolls)
* 60' Darkvision
* 1 skill from small list, 1 tool prof.
* Semi-water dependence of needing water immersion ever 12 hr to avoid Exhaustion
I'm glad you picked up on how the extra 15' for detecting invisible creatures without a direct benefit for attack rolls does make a difference. I knew that something at like 30' Blindsight could be really strong in a lot of circumstances (shooting within the AoE of spells like Fog Cloud or the Darkness spell) so I reduced it to 15'. But as people like Theleny and David have indicated, 15' is only a small improvement from the 10' offered by Blindfighting. So my 15' Blindsight, 30' detect invisible is a compromise.