Hello, thank you for taking the time to read my post and for those who may be able to thank you in advance for any advice that can be given.
I am currently running a Princes of the Apocalypse campaign. My players are currently level 4. They're currently on their way to the Sacred Stone Monastery in an attempt to locate the Earth Cultists. I had glimpsed ahead and saw what CR Rating the boss of the temple is, I don't know much beyond that at the time of writing this post. I was wondering what kind of advice/recommendation I should do to help prolong or redirect them away for now as I feel like if they go now and attempt to take on the cultists it may results in a TPK. I am still working on getting the hang of DM'ing again. My only previously experiences was mostly a homebrew campaign that never really got to a climaxed point passed players reaching level 5.
One of my player is the DM of another DND group I'm apart of, I had asked for his advice on things without trying to really spoil the story at all. His best advice was I should try to distract the party with a sidequest or redirect them onto another quest in the mean time. I am currently still trying to get the handle of things so I'm open to any and all advice. Once again thank you in advance.
You can always do the NPCs beg for help thing. Each and every one will be so very willing to help just as soon as they retrieve the totally easy to find McGuffin that is surely hidden somewhere on my farm, not taken by drow to the underdark on a year long quest.
Make up something so that the PCs get "lost". Waking up from a long rest, the terrain looks altogether different.. Redirect them to a catacomb or some kind of dungeon that you can get from another adventure or online (free maps are easy to find). Have them fight were-rats or a ghouls , then a mini-boss, so they can level up before giving them the solution to get back to the main quest.
You don't need to necessarily redirect them. One of the appeals of an open world style of gameplay is the ability to get into a situation over your head. Instead, think of a way that situation ends without necessarily causing a PC death. (Note; it might still be nice to in some way convey to them that they're walking into an especially dangerous situation through npc interactions, observable hints, or even just big scary signs saying "earth cultists this way: BEWARE" so the players can in some way understand the danger and can actively choose whether to go on or not).
Now my disclaimer is I don't know the story for this adventure, but one thing dm's often forget is that not every fight that's ever been fought is "to the death." The Bad Guys could have any number of reasons for not killing the players; maybe they are looking to take prisoners to use for labor or ritual purposes (offering the players a chance to escape), maybe they want to conserve their strength and simply scare the heroes off without having to risk themselves, or maybe they just find the players so far beneath them that they knock them all out, rob them, and leave them on their doorstep to go warn anyone else they meet not to mess with them.
Defeat at low levels can be a good thing. It can give the players a nemesis, someone they're now super emotionally invested in taking down as they get stronger, ready to pay them back for their humiliation. Defeat can make things personal, which makes things that much cooler when they do win.
I think the part of railroading that people don't hear about enough is when dm's restrict the sub-optimal decisions players can make. Think Fallout 3 (where everything you meet is leveled to you no matter where you go) vs Fallout: New Vegas (where a quick jaunt north of the starting town is f*cking CAZADOR COUNTRY OH MY GOD!). One is safe, expected, and never overly challenging, while the other is the definition of a high-risk/high-reward scenario. Because the other thing is.... you never know! Your players might surprise you, pull out all the stops and actually win. Imagine getting that high CR loot and experience at level 4? They earned that by putting their lives on the line and honestly they'd deserve that and maybe a little extra in the magic item department.
As has been said, situations don’t always necessarily have to lead to character death or a TPK. They could be forced to surrender, imprisoned and then the scenario becomes one of having them try to escape. Perhaps bribe a guard? Pick a lock? Just some thoughts. My group is nearing the end of Princes and it’s been a blast, great fun. Enjoy!
One thing to consider is the recommended levels for each of the areas:
Character Advancement This adventure assumes that the characters begin this chapter at 3rd level. Some of the Haunted Keeps are tougher than others. Feathergale Spire is designed for a 3rd-level party, Rivergard Keep works best for a 4th-level party, Sacred Stone is designed for a 5th-level party, and Scarlet Moon Hall should challenge a 6th-level party. Each outpost the characters overcome should advance them at least one level.
Usually, there is a large jump in character power between 4th and 5th level unless they are doing some multiclassing. This means that the Sacred Stone Monastery is likely designed to be a bit tougher. The ideal progression would be Feathergale -> Rivergard -> Sacred Stone -> Scarlet Moon. However, PoA is a sandbox and the characters can wander anywhere. As DM, you have a few options:
1) Give the party information that makes some destinations more attractive choices than others - don't railroad but the party makes decisions based on the information you provide and since you control the flow of information you can influence the choice indirectly. This can also be used to redirect the party away from content they aren't ready for yet.
2) Controlling information doesn't always work - so the DM can then choose a couple of approaches.
- adjust the encounters a bit to make them more manageable by the party - this can mean tweaking the difficulty up or down ... or adding narrative twists, like the cult wanting more prisoners for the mines instead of killing them leading to an escape narrative - so that even if they lose a battle, the story isn't over.
- leave the encounters as is but foreshadow the difficulty ... remind the players that the world exists already and it is possible for them to wander into encounters that they aren't capable of defeating at their current level. This doesn't work if the players don't listen but it can help the players decide to flee instead of engage if things look bad. In particular, if the character is looking out at two squads of guards with a captain and a couple of lieutenants, maybe a healer or two, and a spell caster or two ... or in fact ANY encounter where the character would look at the situation and think that there is no way to win ... then as DM, you should let the players know exactly that. Players often have difficulty estimating the challenge involved in an encounter and some think that the DM would not give them an encounter that they couldn't handle ... so they jump in and die. The DM should let the players know encounters look challenging or impossible when the character they are playing might reach that conclusion.
- level the characters up so that they are the right level of the content - this may mean that they are over-leveled for other parts of the content so you would have to modify those to make them a bit more difficult but adding can be a bit easier than subtracting (unless you just remove special attacks/abilities of the BBEG or remove some NPCs) but it will make a TPK less likely in the section you are concerned about.
Hello, thank you for taking the time to read my post and for those who may be able to thank you in advance for any advice that can be given.
I am currently running a Princes of the Apocalypse campaign. My players are currently level 4. They're currently on their way to the Sacred Stone Monastery in an attempt to locate the Earth Cultists. I had glimpsed ahead and saw what CR Rating the boss of the temple is, I don't know much beyond that at the time of writing this post. I was wondering what kind of advice/recommendation I should do to help prolong or redirect them away for now as I feel like if they go now and attempt to take on the cultists it may results in a TPK. I am still working on getting the hang of DM'ing again. My only previously experiences was mostly a homebrew campaign that never really got to a climaxed point passed players reaching level 5.
One of my player is the DM of another DND group I'm apart of, I had asked for his advice on things without trying to really spoil the story at all. His best advice was I should try to distract the party with a sidequest or redirect them onto another quest in the mean time. I am currently still trying to get the handle of things so I'm open to any and all advice. Once again thank you in advance.
You can always do the NPCs beg for help thing. Each and every one will be so very willing to help just as soon as they retrieve the totally easy to find McGuffin that is surely hidden somewhere on my farm, not taken by drow to the underdark on a year long quest.
Make up something so that the PCs get "lost". Waking up from a long rest, the terrain looks altogether different.. Redirect them to a catacomb or some kind of dungeon that you can get from another adventure or online (free maps are easy to find). Have them fight were-rats or a ghouls , then a mini-boss, so they can level up before giving them the solution to get back to the main quest.
You don't need to necessarily redirect them. One of the appeals of an open world style of gameplay is the ability to get into a situation over your head. Instead, think of a way that situation ends without necessarily causing a PC death. (Note; it might still be nice to in some way convey to them that they're walking into an especially dangerous situation through npc interactions, observable hints, or even just big scary signs saying "earth cultists this way: BEWARE" so the players can in some way understand the danger and can actively choose whether to go on or not).
Now my disclaimer is I don't know the story for this adventure, but one thing dm's often forget is that not every fight that's ever been fought is "to the death." The Bad Guys could have any number of reasons for not killing the players; maybe they are looking to take prisoners to use for labor or ritual purposes (offering the players a chance to escape), maybe they want to conserve their strength and simply scare the heroes off without having to risk themselves, or maybe they just find the players so far beneath them that they knock them all out, rob them, and leave them on their doorstep to go warn anyone else they meet not to mess with them.
Defeat at low levels can be a good thing. It can give the players a nemesis, someone they're now super emotionally invested in taking down as they get stronger, ready to pay them back for their humiliation. Defeat can make things personal, which makes things that much cooler when they do win.
I think the part of railroading that people don't hear about enough is when dm's restrict the sub-optimal decisions players can make. Think Fallout 3 (where everything you meet is leveled to you no matter where you go) vs Fallout: New Vegas (where a quick jaunt north of the starting town is f*cking CAZADOR COUNTRY OH MY GOD!). One is safe, expected, and never overly challenging, while the other is the definition of a high-risk/high-reward scenario. Because the other thing is.... you never know! Your players might surprise you, pull out all the stops and actually win. Imagine getting that high CR loot and experience at level 4? They earned that by putting their lives on the line and honestly they'd deserve that and maybe a little extra in the magic item department.
Something to think over!
As has been said, situations don’t always necessarily have to lead to character death or a TPK. They could be forced to surrender, imprisoned and then the scenario becomes one of having them try to escape. Perhaps bribe a guard? Pick a lock? Just some thoughts. My group is nearing the end of Princes and it’s been a blast, great fun. Enjoy!
One thing to consider is the recommended levels for each of the areas:
Character Advancement
This adventure assumes that the characters begin this chapter at 3rd level. Some of the Haunted Keeps are tougher than others. Feathergale Spire is designed for a 3rd-level party, Rivergard Keep works best for a 4th-level party, Sacred Stone is designed for a 5th-level party, and Scarlet Moon Hall should challenge a 6th-level party. Each outpost the characters overcome should advance them at least one level.
Usually, there is a large jump in character power between 4th and 5th level unless they are doing some multiclassing. This means that the Sacred Stone Monastery is likely designed to be a bit tougher. The ideal progression would be Feathergale -> Rivergard -> Sacred Stone -> Scarlet Moon. However, PoA is a sandbox and the characters can wander anywhere. As DM, you have a few options:
1) Give the party information that makes some destinations more attractive choices than others - don't railroad but the party makes decisions based on the information you provide and since you control the flow of information you can influence the choice indirectly. This can also be used to redirect the party away from content they aren't ready for yet.
2) Controlling information doesn't always work - so the DM can then choose a couple of approaches.
- adjust the encounters a bit to make them more manageable by the party - this can mean tweaking the difficulty up or down ... or adding narrative twists, like the cult wanting more prisoners for the mines instead of killing them leading to an escape narrative - so that even if they lose a battle, the story isn't over.
- leave the encounters as is but foreshadow the difficulty ... remind the players that the world exists already and it is possible for them to wander into encounters that they aren't capable of defeating at their current level. This doesn't work if the players don't listen but it can help the players decide to flee instead of engage if things look bad. In particular, if the character is looking out at two squads of guards with a captain and a couple of lieutenants, maybe a healer or two, and a spell caster or two ... or in fact ANY encounter where the character would look at the situation and think that there is no way to win ... then as DM, you should let the players know exactly that. Players often have difficulty estimating the challenge involved in an encounter and some think that the DM would not give them an encounter that they couldn't handle ... so they jump in and die. The DM should let the players know encounters look challenging or impossible when the character they are playing might reach that conclusion.
- level the characters up so that they are the right level of the content - this may mean that they are over-leveled for other parts of the content so you would have to modify those to make them a bit more difficult but adding can be a bit easier than subtracting (unless you just remove special attacks/abilities of the BBEG or remove some NPCs) but it will make a TPK less likely in the section you are concerned about.