I'm preparing to run Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden with a few groups. For various reasons I'm interested in doing XP based advancement rather than the milestone advancement that the book seems to suggest.
Am I crazy to want to try this? Has anyone run IDRoF using XP advancement? If so, did the level advancements track close at all to what the book suggests for each chapter?
I won't say that you're crazy, but I am curious as to why. I mean if you go by XP you'll be handing out little bits as the chapters progress and the characters will have enough to advance at roughly the same points as the milestone would give them. It just seems like a lot of extra work to get to the same place.
I run pure XP and don't use milestone. Both systems are valid, and I've used both, but I've run into a campaign-ending problem in Curse of Strahd from 7 to 8 where our DM refused to level the characters up because we hadn't hit their chosen milestone. Because the whole group was feeling bummed out, and we'd been level 7 for a full year of gameplay, I worked out the xp for the monsters we'd killed since level 7 alone and we were already beyond where we should have hit level 8, even without any xp for exploration, social interaction or resolving minor storylines. The campaign effectively ended there because the DM threw a fit, we weren't having fun being stuck at one level with no indication things would change, and the DM didn't want us at level 8 (I don't know why, we were even about to hit the highest level location in the module so could easily have been level 9 or 10 by then).
This is my system for XP:
Monster experience points
All players receive a full XP share of experience points for all monsters that were slain, and 50% of the XP for creatures that were forced to flee during encounters in the session. No XP are awarded for combats that have no possible threat.
Major Quest Goals
All players receive a share of XP if they have participated in achieving a major quest goal. Examples of major quest goals from recent games are:
Clear a dungeon, such as Tynemear Castle. This takes into account the limited resources, traps encountered, puzzles solved etc.
Resolve a world issue, such as removing the cult from the Town of Gilt (note that this is not bonus XP for slaying a ‘boss’ monster – that is included in the monster’s XP value).
XP for these goals is always 1000 XP per player.
Minor Personal Story Goals
If a player advances their personal storyline in a meaningful way, they gain XP equal to their character level multiplied by 50. Examples might be:
Being awarded a rank or standing in a relevant organisation
Discovering a secret relating to your backstory
Locating a magic item you have been seeking
Locating an NPC you have been looking for
The DM rules on whether your achievement affects your personal story
You can gain this bonus once per game session only.
Character roleplay XP
If a character does something that enhances the world lore in some way then they gain XP equal to their character level multiplied by 50. These XP are awarded individually. Examples might be:
Making a new ally by assisting them with a problem
Marrying an NPC
Opening a business
Making a new personal enemy
Participating in a cake eating competition
You can gain this bonus once per game session only.
High Drama XP
If a character manages to turn a moment in combat or other perilous situation into a moment of High Drama, they gain XP equal to their level multiplied by 50.
An example of this would be when the Kaloss Deva stated “You cannot defeat me. I endured the fires of the Arch Sorcerer of Harrisia,” to which Markus replied. “Watch me, I’m just getting started.”
This award can be given only once per session and is intended to encourage dramatic, cool moments of play and not just comedic or flippant replies.
Major Personal Goal Completion
If a character achieves a major storyline breakthrough, they gain XP equal to their character level multiplied by 500.
The storyline goal must be completed in a way that is positive for the character. Major goals takes many sessions to complete, and a player is likely to complete only 1-3 during their entire adventuring career at most.
A character can begin a Major Personal Quest by informing the DM of what the character’s personal goal is. The DM will rule on whether it can be considered a Major Personal Goal. If a player completes a major goal, the player may ask to set a new goal.
“Fun Stuff” XP
If you do something that is fun, but ultimately not that game relevant, you may be awarded 100 bonus XP.
You can gain this bonus once per game session only.
New Location discovery
Travelling to and discovering a new location of significance awards 200xp
So my main interest in going this route is that I have one group in particular that is really fun to play with but we hardly ever have everyone there. Sometimes I've run their character, sometimes another player will run it for them. But both ways are kind of awkward. So I want to try saying that if you're not there, and we have at least half of the group there, we're going to play. The missing players will just have their characters become non-combatant tag-alongs for that session. In other words, they were there but they didn't do anything. Then I can use XP to advance the PC's that were actually there that night. I'm not necessarily trying to punish people who aren't there but doing it this way will make it easier to deal with someone missing. Then it also has the benefit of everyone leveling up at different times. Which I think could be fun.
@Sanvael, I like your list. Thanks! I'm going to study it more and see how much of it I can use!
So my main interest in going this route is that I have one group in particular that is really fun to play with but we hardly ever have everyone there. Sometimes I've run their character, sometimes another player will run it for them. But both ways are kind of awkward. So I want to try saying that if you're not there, and we have at least half of the group there, we're going to play. The missing players will just have their characters become non-combatant tag-alongs for that session. In other words, they were there but they didn't do anything. Then I can use XP to advance the PC's that were actually there that night. I'm not necessarily trying to punish people who aren't there but doing it this way will make it easier to deal with someone missing. Then it also has the benefit of everyone leveling up at different times. Which I think could be fun.
@Sanvael, I like your list. Thanks! I'm going to study it more and see how much of it I can use!
Are players not turning because they can't be bothered? Or they not turning up because they are either working, or have other "higher priority" commitments?
If the former, then your system is fair.
If the latter, then it would be an unfair penalty.
So my main interest in going this route is that I have one group in particular that is really fun to play with but we hardly ever have everyone there. Sometimes I've run their character, sometimes another player will run it for them. But both ways are kind of awkward. So I want to try saying that if you're not there, and we have at least half of the group there, we're going to play. The missing players will just have their characters become non-combatant tag-alongs for that session. In other words, they were there but they didn't do anything. Then I can use XP to advance the PC's that were actually there that night. I'm not necessarily trying to punish people who aren't there but doing it this way will make it easier to deal with someone missing. Then it also has the benefit of everyone leveling up at different times. Which I think could be fun.
@Sanvael, I like your list. Thanks! I'm going to study it more and see how much of it I can use!
Ok I see where you're going with that now. Something to consider: The module encounters are balanced around the party being certain levels at certain points. If your players are missing from time to time, then they likely will not meet the expected levels for future encounters. You can obviously adjust the encounters, but it would be a whole lot easier just to make them the appropriate level otherwise your adjusting everything all the time on top of converting everything to XP. Doing that, however, is pulling you back into milestone territory. So I don't know. It will be interesting to see what you come up with.
I just finished RotFM not too long ago (we did milestone). The first part of that adventure was unbelievably slow from an advancement perspective and all of us felt we were under-leveled until we hit 6 or 7. The encounters say they are balanced for certain levels, but they don't feel like it on the player side at all. Sunblight in particular was insanely deadly for us and we attempted it at level 5 not once but three times. Now, granted, the first attempt was player stupidity, but the dungeon itself is kind of a sleeper threat if you play it straight.
To convert this adventure to XP, you'd be doing your players a favor in the first chapters as they run around Ten Towns doing quests. Once they hit the Island of Solstice, the encounters get a little more reasonable for the party level. The Caves of Hunger are ridiculously treacherous.
Basically, my view from my own experience is that whatever the book says the minimum level for a section is, it should probably be one or two levels higher unless you really like the threat and/or reality of TPKs.
The main problem with xp leveling for a module designed around milestones is that milestone modules may not have bothered with making sure the right amount of xp is actually available. For example, in CoS you'll wind up substantially underleveled unless you run around beating up wandering monsters and the like.
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I'm preparing to run Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden with a few groups. For various reasons I'm interested in doing XP based advancement rather than the milestone advancement that the book seems to suggest.
Am I crazy to want to try this? Has anyone run IDRoF using XP advancement? If so, did the level advancements track close at all to what the book suggests for each chapter?
I won't say that you're crazy, but I am curious as to why. I mean if you go by XP you'll be handing out little bits as the chapters progress and the characters will have enough to advance at roughly the same points as the milestone would give them. It just seems like a lot of extra work to get to the same place.
I run pure XP and don't use milestone. Both systems are valid, and I've used both, but I've run into a campaign-ending problem in Curse of Strahd from 7 to 8 where our DM refused to level the characters up because we hadn't hit their chosen milestone. Because the whole group was feeling bummed out, and we'd been level 7 for a full year of gameplay, I worked out the xp for the monsters we'd killed since level 7 alone and we were already beyond where we should have hit level 8, even without any xp for exploration, social interaction or resolving minor storylines. The campaign effectively ended there because the DM threw a fit, we weren't having fun being stuck at one level with no indication things would change, and the DM didn't want us at level 8 (I don't know why, we were even about to hit the highest level location in the module so could easily have been level 9 or 10 by then).
This is my system for XP:
So my main interest in going this route is that I have one group in particular that is really fun to play with but we hardly ever have everyone there. Sometimes I've run their character, sometimes another player will run it for them. But both ways are kind of awkward. So I want to try saying that if you're not there, and we have at least half of the group there, we're going to play. The missing players will just have their characters become non-combatant tag-alongs for that session. In other words, they were there but they didn't do anything. Then I can use XP to advance the PC's that were actually there that night. I'm not necessarily trying to punish people who aren't there but doing it this way will make it easier to deal with someone missing. Then it also has the benefit of everyone leveling up at different times. Which I think could be fun.
@Sanvael, I like your list. Thanks! I'm going to study it more and see how much of it I can use!
Are players not turning because they can't be bothered? Or they not turning up because they are either working, or have other "higher priority" commitments?
If the former, then your system is fair.
If the latter, then it would be an unfair penalty.
Ok I see where you're going with that now. Something to consider: The module encounters are balanced around the party being certain levels at certain points. If your players are missing from time to time, then they likely will not meet the expected levels for future encounters. You can obviously adjust the encounters, but it would be a whole lot easier just to make them the appropriate level otherwise your adjusting everything all the time on top of converting everything to XP. Doing that, however, is pulling you back into milestone territory. So I don't know. It will be interesting to see what you come up with.
I just finished RotFM not too long ago (we did milestone). The first part of that adventure was unbelievably slow from an advancement perspective and all of us felt we were under-leveled until we hit 6 or 7. The encounters say they are balanced for certain levels, but they don't feel like it on the player side at all. Sunblight in particular was insanely deadly for us and we attempted it at level 5 not once but three times. Now, granted, the first attempt was player stupidity, but the dungeon itself is kind of a sleeper threat if you play it straight.
To convert this adventure to XP, you'd be doing your players a favor in the first chapters as they run around Ten Towns doing quests. Once they hit the Island of Solstice, the encounters get a little more reasonable for the party level. The Caves of Hunger are ridiculously treacherous.
Basically, my view from my own experience is that whatever the book says the minimum level for a section is, it should probably be one or two levels higher unless you really like the threat and/or reality of TPKs.
The main problem with xp leveling for a module designed around milestones is that milestone modules may not have bothered with making sure the right amount of xp is actually available. For example, in CoS you'll wind up substantially underleveled unless you run around beating up wandering monsters and the like.