So, I've been working up a dungeon for my players to go through next time we play. (Whenever that is.) I'm using the Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle adventure from 3.5 for the map and the flavor text but the encounters inside that dungeon have pretty much been changed. I've also added a labyrinth underneath the dungeon.
And that's where my problem is. I used kobold fight club to determine the XP values (adjusted like you calculate out of the DMG) to compare those to the typical adventuring day budget. As originally designed, I think my dungeon would end up in a TPK. And I don't want a TPK.
Level 1, the castle ruins themselves, has 5 encounters- 6 bandits, a ghost, 6 gargoyles, 4 guards, 4 veterans, and a half-dragon veteran. That puts the first level of the dungeon crawl 2200 over the average adventuring day for 4 5th level characters.
Level B, the underground labyrinth, has a table of 6 wandering encounters and I'm struggling to come up with the main encounter. The wandering encounters are 4 will o' wisps, 1 wraith, 2 flameskulls, 3 ghouls, 2 ghasts, and a corpse flower. The main encounter is a creature who was sealed beneath the castle. Currently that's chosen as a sword wraith commander and was planning on him having 2 sword wraith warriors in there with him. But all told, that is a total of 23,950 adjusted XP. Almost 10K over the average adventuring day budget for the party.
Am I going about designing this wrong? Or am I confused as to XP budgets for designing encounters? I've read the bit in the DMG about designing a dungeon but it's a lot about thinking about the history of it and how that informs what's in there. I already have all that. I know the first level is taken over by the Cult of the Dragon (this is for tyranny of dragons). The labyrinth has the creature sealed away because that is part of the history of the castle, per the FR wiki. The labyrinth was going to be populated with undead because the creature that was sealed away commanded an undead army from the castle.
I just need to figure out how to make this interesting and logical without killing my whole party. I've searched the forums and the internet and can find nothing that helps with my conundrum.
The XP for your adventurers in most calculations assumes standard array/average stats, and average to zero magic items. I have found that my players regularly get through the suggested XP limits when I calculate it normally or use Kobold. The reason for this is that all but one rolled higher than standard array stats. Plus, I am decently generous with the magic items. A good party mix also helps, as well as player strategy.
Basically, I would say use the XP and CR info as a guideline, but there is a lot more involved. If they are above average in stats and items, don't be afraid to go over. The nice thing about dungeons is that even though a party shouldn't feel like they should be able to take rests, you could easily make one of the rooms "very sturdy, with a good door, and easily defended." If they really need it, let them rest and hold of on the random encounter table.
I’ve found trying to plan every single encounter in the dungeon can be a little restrictive. Sure - have an idea of what they’ll find in each room, and how many, but be prepared to adjust on the fly.
Use your calculations to get an idea of what to include, but use it as a guide. There are too many variables at play (mentioned by Sigvard above) - and players, or you, can simply get lucky/unlucky with rolls. If an encounter nearly wipes the party, consider softening the next by removing a couple of creatures.
But don’t pull too many punches or fear a TPK. Allow your players to find creative solutions to struggle on if their resources are low. Some of the best drama and tension comes when your players have to make risks like this.
Being able to react on the fly will help you strike the challenge balance. There’s no formula you can use beyond your own intuition - you’ll know when the players aren’t going to survive your next encounter, but it’s up to them to figure out how to. Whether that’s finding somewhere to rest, barricading a room, using their resources - or just risking it.
Its those decisions that make DnD exciting! So have fun with.
The only reason I worry about a TPK at all is that I DM for my nephews. They love their characters. If they clear out the castle, they could sleep in the barracks for a long rest and then tackle the dungeon. I may just go ahead and eliminate the wandering encounters. I'm not sure they make sense anyway with the other puzzles in the room. The labyrinth walls are invisible and there's a sentient door blocking the way to the central chamber.
I ran the encounter in the central chamber. Even with characters at full strength one of them could have died. And that was with meta knowledge optimizing the fight. I'll be spending some time today going over the encounters with the advice you've given me. Thank you very much!
No need to justify worrying about a TPK. I do from time to time and all my players are in their 30's and 40's. Attachment to your character never really goes away. One of the best things about D&D.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So, I've been working up a dungeon for my players to go through next time we play. (Whenever that is.) I'm using the Ghosts of Dragonspear Castle adventure from 3.5 for the map and the flavor text but the encounters inside that dungeon have pretty much been changed. I've also added a labyrinth underneath the dungeon.
And that's where my problem is. I used kobold fight club to determine the XP values (adjusted like you calculate out of the DMG) to compare those to the typical adventuring day budget. As originally designed, I think my dungeon would end up in a TPK. And I don't want a TPK.
Level 1, the castle ruins themselves, has 5 encounters- 6 bandits, a ghost, 6 gargoyles, 4 guards, 4 veterans, and a half-dragon veteran. That puts the first level of the dungeon crawl 2200 over the average adventuring day for 4 5th level characters.
Level B, the underground labyrinth, has a table of 6 wandering encounters and I'm struggling to come up with the main encounter. The wandering encounters are 4 will o' wisps, 1 wraith, 2 flameskulls, 3 ghouls, 2 ghasts, and a corpse flower. The main encounter is a creature who was sealed beneath the castle. Currently that's chosen as a sword wraith commander and was planning on him having 2 sword wraith warriors in there with him. But all told, that is a total of 23,950 adjusted XP. Almost 10K over the average adventuring day budget for the party.
Am I going about designing this wrong? Or am I confused as to XP budgets for designing encounters? I've read the bit in the DMG about designing a dungeon but it's a lot about thinking about the history of it and how that informs what's in there. I already have all that. I know the first level is taken over by the Cult of the Dragon (this is for tyranny of dragons). The labyrinth has the creature sealed away because that is part of the history of the castle, per the FR wiki. The labyrinth was going to be populated with undead because the creature that was sealed away commanded an undead army from the castle.
I just need to figure out how to make this interesting and logical without killing my whole party. I've searched the forums and the internet and can find nothing that helps with my conundrum.
My Homebrew Backgrounds | Feats | Magic Items | Monsters | Races | Subclasses
The XP for your adventurers in most calculations assumes standard array/average stats, and average to zero magic items. I have found that my players regularly get through the suggested XP limits when I calculate it normally or use Kobold. The reason for this is that all but one rolled higher than standard array stats. Plus, I am decently generous with the magic items. A good party mix also helps, as well as player strategy.
Basically, I would say use the XP and CR info as a guideline, but there is a lot more involved. If they are above average in stats and items, don't be afraid to go over. The nice thing about dungeons is that even though a party shouldn't feel like they should be able to take rests, you could easily make one of the rooms "very sturdy, with a good door, and easily defended." If they really need it, let them rest and hold of on the random encounter table.
I’ve found trying to plan every single encounter in the dungeon can be a little restrictive. Sure - have an idea of what they’ll find in each room, and how many, but be prepared to adjust on the fly.
Use your calculations to get an idea of what to include, but use it as a guide. There are too many variables at play (mentioned by Sigvard above) - and players, or you, can simply get lucky/unlucky with rolls. If an encounter nearly wipes the party, consider softening the next by removing a couple of creatures.
But don’t pull too many punches or fear a TPK. Allow your players to find creative solutions to struggle on if their resources are low. Some of the best drama and tension comes when your players have to make risks like this.
Being able to react on the fly will help you strike the challenge balance. There’s no formula you can use beyond your own intuition - you’ll know when the players aren’t going to survive your next encounter, but it’s up to them to figure out how to. Whether that’s finding somewhere to rest, barricading a room, using their resources - or just risking it.
Its those decisions that make DnD exciting! So have fun with.
The only reason I worry about a TPK at all is that I DM for my nephews. They love their characters. If they clear out the castle, they could sleep in the barracks for a long rest and then tackle the dungeon. I may just go ahead and eliminate the wandering encounters. I'm not sure they make sense anyway with the other puzzles in the room. The labyrinth walls are invisible and there's a sentient door blocking the way to the central chamber.
I ran the encounter in the central chamber. Even with characters at full strength one of them could have died. And that was with meta knowledge optimizing the fight. I'll be spending some time today going over the encounters with the advice you've given me. Thank you very much!
My Homebrew Backgrounds | Feats | Magic Items | Monsters | Races | Subclasses
No need to justify worrying about a TPK. I do from time to time and all my players are in their 30's and 40's. Attachment to your character never really goes away. One of the best things about D&D.