I'm either to generous or to tight. I'm thinking of tying it to xp somehow. I guess I could use treasure tables from dmg. Use a horde of the correct cr for a session?
The only currency I have in my game is Gold, So everything costs a lot. Usually they get anywhere between 1500 to 3,000 a game. I like giving them gold so they have money to spend on Inns, armor maintenance, Weapons and spells. They don't really like taking jobs as they mistrust most of the NPCs they run into
I go with what the DMG says on the matter, which would be this, "You can hand out as much or as little treasure as you want."
When I'm running a published adventure, I stick as close to the treasure in the books as I can without inventing things not already in the 5th edition rules (i.e. I ignore a lot of the wondrous items that existed in 4th edition but not others, or I'll make a weapon that was +1, +2 vs. Undead in AD&D a +1 weapon that glows when undead are nearby).
When I'm planning out my own adventure, the method I use is to roll what the DMG says is "typical" over the course of a campaign (specifically 7 treasure hoards from the CR 0-4 tables, 18 from the CR 5-10 tables, 12 from the CR 11-16 tables, and 8 from the 17-20 tables) and make one huge master list of each type of coin, each type of item, and the quantity.
Then I place treasure as it fits within the campaign, and mark it off from the master list.
With attunement limits stopping the party from bringing too many potent magic items to bear at any one time, and monetary treasures not being able to acquire anything I don't put an NPC selling into the world, there is very little that can go "bad" with the party finding an abundance of treasure (the worst that has happened is that my players have their characters be a little picky - they'll skip copper, and even silver, if they didn't find it in an easy to transport container, and they even left a vault of treasures sitting because they thought "we'll come back here if we need more, but these weapons we found a pocket-full each of gems and jewelry should get us by for quite some time").
5e is built with low money settings with players starting with 20gold and probably having accumulated a total of a whooping 50k in their entire run. Fact there is nothing to do with cash makes ideal to create your own.
A problem of too much cash means the dm needs a money sink that is worth it. In my game its enchanting and object making. A game withbtoo few gold is a game that needs to lower its prices.
In my games since i tend to like high fantasy... I usually roll 3x the hoard treasures. But individual treasures are fine as is.
But again... Remember that 5e is pretty low treasures. The one thing you can add is also a system of profession. Dragon claws hide or teeths can easily have a market. Basillisk blood is used for anti petrification. Their scales could be used for anything else you want. So yeah think of putting other valueables instead of just gold and platinum. Remember that wizards also need incredients for potions.
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I run with the DMG on this: as much or as little treasure. You do have to balance this based on your choice either by increasing pricing of items, or increase the difficulty of encounters if you hand out a ton of goodies that inflate their ability to mow things down.
Ultimately, do what you want and what your players love. You can't go wrong with that.
You do have to balance this based on your choice either by increasing pricing of items, or increase the difficulty of encounters if you hand out a ton of goodies that inflate their ability to mow things down.
That it is a common misconception. It is actually entirely fine to have the characters be better at things than they would be because of the inclusion of magic items, rather than raise difficulty to account for items.
In fact, I find it helps players feel like the items they've acquired actually matter and decreases the players' feelings of needing to get something bigger and better, when you don't adjust anything because of the items involved. My experience with doing it the other way - adjusting difficulty to match items - is that's where the players and DM start to feel like they are in an "arms race", and all such arms race-styled play ends in the same spot; with somebody unsatisfied because of the game ending up in territory of such precarious balance that it feels like whoever wins initiative wins the encounter.
we got entirely different views, my players eventually asked me to up the challenges because apparently being able to kill pit fiends at level 10 was literally boring as hell.
so i'd say it entirely depends on players.
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we got entirely different views, my players eventually asked me to up the challenges because apparently being able to kill pit fiends at level 10 was literally boring as hell.
so i'd say it entirely depends on players.
Yes, it does depend on players... DMs too. If 10th level characters can take on a pit fiend and find it boring, it sounds like more than just having magic items is off target for them, like perhaps their DM is particularly low-difficulty in how they set up encounters and operate monsters.
...or you are being hyperbolic and your 10th level party didn't actually fight any pit fiends and find it easy enough to be boring (at least not only because of magic items), since even a fairly tough fighter character can go from full HP to dying and also unable to regain hit points in a single not-even-above-average-rolls turn thanks to the pit fiend's simple but effect stats.
No im talking high magic item setting. In 5e my players were level 10, had +2 weapons all of them, had +1 armors and 2 of them had capes and rings as well as a few other items. And yes they wrecked a pit fiend with help. The encounter was deadly. But ended up easy because tactics and all.
Reality, 5e is far more forgiving by magic items. But compare to 3e and you understsnd how much magic items actually give. In 3e the encounter creation methodes was whacked by 2 levels. Meaning players could take on deadly encounters to a mere easy encounter because of magic items. Like +5 armors and +5 weapons which were easy to get because shops. In the end you had to equip monsters with items too. Which led to an endless loop of finding more items they could sale to get more items.
In 5e. From the tables from randomisation... Even at level 9 which my players are right now. They still havent found a +1 weapon. Yet they still easily wreck a hard fight as if it was medium encounter. Because the Burst damage of players is high.
Wanna see what high magical items count do to a game of 5e. See critical role where a bunch of level 15 took on a kraken and yet the only thing that made this fight challenging to them was the underwater ruling. Had they thought about freedom of movement or swim speeds... They would of wrecked it. Level 15 besting a CR23 modified for more hp because 400+ is something the group did in like 2 rounds. And better ac like 2-3 more to make him harder to hit.
If you give out items too easily in 5e you wreck the already little balance there is. 5e is designed to be played by player skills only and magic items are said to be very very rare. That is said in dmg and it even gets noticed by random tables which barely gives out +1 weapons and armor are even harder to get by.
Unless you as a dm gets your players often with theirs pants down, magic items will definitely make them much stronger if you give them too many. Like if you give the +2 armors at level 10 you are too fast.
That is not counting abilities like infinite life for combat druids at level 20.
But to each its own. I preffer to follow the books and my players preffer to always have bis gears on them. But since they like challenges they understand me not giving them too much items. But yeah... They resell everything that doesnt boost their attack or damage or anything not giving them more resistance or ac.
Thats a video game syndrome. Get best in slots or get lost attitude.
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DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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Thats a video game syndrome. Get best in slots or get lost attitude.
Ugh, no. Stop blaming video games for things that happen without their influence. "get best in slots or get lost" as an attitude comes from their being slots, and items that are 'best' in them, mixing with running the game (intentionally or otherwise) so that players don't feel their characters are good enough.
This is a natural result of a playstyle that puts emphasis on a single encounter feeling deadly independent of what else has gone on, or will go on, in the surrounding parts of game-play - the game balance gets put on a very narrow ledge, and topples off to one side or the other with a small string of rolls landing in the same side's favor. If using a different playstyle, such as one that puts emphasis on an "adventuring day" providing the feeling of challenge once it has all gone on, each encounter doesn't have to carry so much weight and so much risk of failure, and the overall goal of the players feeling challenged is (apparently, since I've never had trouble with it, even while 'going ham' with handing out magic items) much easier to reach.
And yes they wrecked a pit fiend with help
"With help" is another variable - you can't accurately say it's the magic items that were responsible for their victory with such ease as to be bored by it until you have defined what this "help" is and made sure it isn't making any kind of contribution to the end results. Otherwise you might as well eat a shrimp po boy sandwich, get a rash, and decide yourself allergic to shrimp as a result... even though it could be any of the other ingredients, like the tomatoes, or one of the things found in the sauce.
See critical role where a bunch of level 15 took on a kraken and yet the only thing that made this fight challenging to them was the underwater ruling.
That's probably a bad example. Not just because what I know of Mercer's DMing style is that he takes things fairly easy on his players on purpose (for drama purposes), but because a single Kraken is actually under a Hard encounter budget for a 15th-level party with six members - so they should have been able to take it down without too much bad stuff happening in the meanwhile. It sounds more like you've misunderstood the, admitted not intuitively named, difficulties of encounters in 5th edition and/or what CR means in the 5th edition usage. CR above your level doesn't mean "your party is gonna loose", it just means "somebody has decent chance of dying while you win this fight", and a 'deadly' encounter doesn't mean "party wipe potential," it just means "solid odds somebody will hit the floor while you win this fight." Yes, that is a bit strange if you've used the encounter difficulty terms and CR (or monster level) of prior editions - but it is how things are now.
"With help" is another variable - you can't accurately say it's the magic items that were responsible for their victory with such ease as to be bored by it until you have defined what this "help" is and made sure it isn't making any kind of contribution to the end results. Otherwise you might as well eat a shrimp po boy sandwich, get a rash, and decide yourself allergic to shrimp as a result... even though it could be any of the other ingredients, like the tomatoes, or one of the things found in the sauce.
Or the bread; three major allergens are commonly found in bread.
See critical role where a bunch of level 15 took on a kraken and yet the only thing that made this fight challenging to them was the underwater ruling.
That's probably a bad example. Not just because what I know of Mercer's DMing style is that he takes things fairly easy on his players on purpose (for drama purposes), but because a single Kraken is actually under a Hard encounter budget for a 15th-level party with six members - so they should have been able to take it down without too much bad stuff happening in the meanwhile. It sounds more like you've misunderstood the, admitted not intuitively named, difficulties of encounters in 5th edition and/or what CR means in the 5th edition usage. CR above your level doesn't mean "your party is gonna loose", it just means "somebody has decent chance of dying while you win this fight", and a 'deadly' encounter doesn't mean "party wipe potential," it just means "solid odds somebody will hit the floor while you win this fight." Yes, that is a bit strange if you've used the encounter difficulty terms and CR (or monster level) of prior editions - but it is how things are now.
One CR 23 is a Medium encounter for 6 15th-level characters? Are you quite sure? For it to be a Medium encounter, its effective XP value (25000) would have to be between 16800 and 25800. Good grief! Never mind me, then.
Matt always put more hp and more ac to his monsters. So that kraken was more then cr 23.
As for help. I meant for the pitfiend. Pitfiend + 2 marilith. They rushed the pitfiend and killed it in 2 rounds.
You are the first to say you played 1e and 2e... But honestly during those times none of the 8-10 groups i played with were min maxing. Min maxing came around with 3e. At least in popularity.
Notes: Post edited to remove insults directed at another user
DM of two gaming groups. Likes to create stuff. Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games --> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
As for help. I meant for the pitfiend. Pitfiend + 2 marilith. They rushed the pitfiend and killed it in 2 rounds.
A 10th level party took down a pit fiend in 2 rounds while it and a pair of mariliths were on the scene? That sounds like something far more influential than an assortment of magic items was at play - especially with the mixing of demons (marilith) and devils (pit fiend) and that not being a three-way battle with the mariliths & PCs trying to kill the pit fiend, the pit fiend trying to kill the PCs and mariliths, and the PCs having to deal with the mariliths and pit fiend.
you are the first to say you played 1e and 2e... But honestly during those times none of the 8-10 groups i played with were min maxing.
No min-maxing in your 8-10 groups, but plenty of it in mine - and enough of a thing to warrant the game books themselves addressing the issue. You personally not seeing it happen has zero actual bearing on whether it really happens or not... I mean, I've never personally witnessed a player get so mad about a character death that they refused to play anymore, but I believe other people when they tell me they have seen such a thing.
You do have to balance this based on your choice either by increasing pricing of items, or increase the difficulty of encounters if you hand out a ton of goodies that inflate their ability to mow things down.
That it is a common misconception. It is actually entirely fine to have the characters be better at things than they would be because of the inclusion of magic items, rather than raise difficulty to account for items.
In fact, I find it helps players feel like the items they've acquired actually matter and decreases the players' feelings of needing to get something bigger and better, when you don't adjust anything because of the items involved. My experience with doing it the other way - adjusting difficulty to match items - is that's where the players and DM start to feel like they are in an "arms race", and all such arms race-styled play ends in the same spot; with somebody unsatisfied because of the game ending up in territory of such precarious balance that it feels like whoever wins initiative wins the encounter.
I think we actually have the same philosophy, but I have too loosely used the word balance without clarification. I also believe there is no prescribed way to go about this and, I feel, it is always in flux. The balance I am talking about is the balance of what is fun. My post doesn't clarify that. You want players to feel their magic items are useful, but you also don't want them to get bored is really the point I meant to make. Adjusting the pricing and difficulty were really just 2 examples of how this could be achieved.
The difficult part is the table's ideas of useful and boredom can change from session to session. Regardless, I think with things like these it really is a matter of just talking to the players before and after sessions to gauge where that balance is.
For published adventures I either knock a 0 at the end of the number (if that number has more than 2 digits in it AND if decreasing that number makes sense), OR I change up a higher value coinage for a lower value one. I've always liked the Gygaxian trope of "Yes, there's a lot of money here... but it's all in Copper and Silver. How much can you actually carry? How are you going to get from point A to point B?"
Edit: Lately I've been experimenting at handing out magic items very sparingly. Each of my players starts with at least one magic item, however that item is never a weapon or armor. I want to see what the player can come up with using mostly their own PC skills/abilities and player imagination.
I start with the chart at the end of chapter one on starting characters at higher levels. So a 5th level would have 500gp + 1d10 * 25gp -- average 637.5gp. So a party of 5 should have earned ~3'187.5 go + living costs. That is a good book guide.
But actually, I vary from this based on need. Some campaigns have higher costs for spell casting (especially raise dead). Also, if the wizard is constantly shipping meals to pay for spellbooks, I give an bit more. On the other hand, the barbarian probably wastes any funds over cost of beer.
Money can ruin marriages! It can also run parties 😋😂. I adjust on the fly to keep the game fun.
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--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
I love giving to my players after a while kinda like the... Oh snaps this pays for everything else. And then see them trying to buy magic items to get BIS. Only to realise its not that easy and money is not used for items. At that point i usually hint at establishing themselves with certain locales and then get involved with higher monarchies.
Like the group just got a ton of money from a temple run they just did. Like they found the vaults. They resold the higher magic items they found to a collector of super rare magic items. Got a few uncommon and rare and had enough to buy themselves a castle or something. They decided to start a tavern in the metropole. They paid 8k for the cost of a 100x100 feet terrain to build a 3 story high building. They added 2k because they didn't want to wait 60 days for it to be built and haggled to 30 days. They gonna brew their own beers and have parties over there. This is gonna be awesome and will open a ton of doors for them.
I love to show players that money isnt just for magic items in this game !!!
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I'm either to generous or to tight. I'm thinking of tying it to xp somehow. I guess I could use treasure tables from dmg. Use a horde of the correct cr for a session?
I usually hand out way too much in my in-person game, but I also populate the local city's market district with some very expensive stuff.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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The only currency I have in my game is Gold, So everything costs a lot. Usually they get anywhere between 1500 to 3,000 a game. I like giving them gold so they have money to spend on Inns, armor maintenance, Weapons and spells. They don't really like taking jobs as they mistrust most of the NPCs they run into
I go with what the DMG says on the matter, which would be this, "You can hand out as much or as little treasure as you want."
When I'm running a published adventure, I stick as close to the treasure in the books as I can without inventing things not already in the 5th edition rules (i.e. I ignore a lot of the wondrous items that existed in 4th edition but not others, or I'll make a weapon that was +1, +2 vs. Undead in AD&D a +1 weapon that glows when undead are nearby).
When I'm planning out my own adventure, the method I use is to roll what the DMG says is "typical" over the course of a campaign (specifically 7 treasure hoards from the CR 0-4 tables, 18 from the CR 5-10 tables, 12 from the CR 11-16 tables, and 8 from the 17-20 tables) and make one huge master list of each type of coin, each type of item, and the quantity.
Then I place treasure as it fits within the campaign, and mark it off from the master list.
With attunement limits stopping the party from bringing too many potent magic items to bear at any one time, and monetary treasures not being able to acquire anything I don't put an NPC selling into the world, there is very little that can go "bad" with the party finding an abundance of treasure (the worst that has happened is that my players have their characters be a little picky - they'll skip copper, and even silver, if they didn't find it in an easy to transport container, and they even left a vault of treasures sitting because they thought "we'll come back here if we need more, but these weapons we found a pocket-full each of gems and jewelry should get us by for quite some time").
5e is built with low money settings with players starting with 20gold and probably having accumulated a total of a whooping 50k in their entire run. Fact there is nothing to do with cash makes ideal to create your own.
A problem of too much cash means the dm needs a money sink that is worth it. In my game its enchanting and object making. A game withbtoo few gold is a game that needs to lower its prices.
In my games since i tend to like high fantasy... I usually roll 3x the hoard treasures. But individual treasures are fine as is.
But again... Remember that 5e is pretty low treasures. The one thing you can add is also a system of profession. Dragon claws hide or teeths can easily have a market. Basillisk blood is used for anti petrification. Their scales could be used for anything else you want. So yeah think of putting other valueables instead of just gold and platinum. Remember that wizards also need incredients for potions.
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Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
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I run with the DMG on this: as much or as little treasure. You do have to balance this based on your choice either by increasing pricing of items, or increase the difficulty of encounters if you hand out a ton of goodies that inflate their ability to mow things down.
Ultimately, do what you want and what your players love. You can't go wrong with that.
we got entirely different views, my players eventually asked me to up the challenges because apparently being able to kill pit fiends at level 10 was literally boring as hell.
so i'd say it entirely depends on players.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
No im talking high magic item setting. In 5e my players were level 10, had +2 weapons all of them, had +1 armors and 2 of them had capes and rings as well as a few other items. And yes they wrecked a pit fiend with help. The encounter was deadly. But ended up easy because tactics and all.
Reality, 5e is far more forgiving by magic items. But compare to 3e and you understsnd how much magic items actually give. In 3e the encounter creation methodes was whacked by 2 levels. Meaning players could take on deadly encounters to a mere easy encounter because of magic items. Like +5 armors and +5 weapons which were easy to get because shops. In the end you had to equip monsters with items too. Which led to an endless loop of finding more items they could sale to get more items.
In 5e. From the tables from randomisation... Even at level 9 which my players are right now. They still havent found a +1 weapon. Yet they still easily wreck a hard fight as if it was medium encounter. Because the Burst damage of players is high.
Wanna see what high magical items count do to a game of 5e. See critical role where a bunch of level 15 took on a kraken and yet the only thing that made this fight challenging to them was the underwater ruling. Had they thought about freedom of movement or swim speeds... They would of wrecked it. Level 15 besting a CR23 modified for more hp because 400+ is something the group did in like 2 rounds. And better ac like 2-3 more to make him harder to hit.
If you give out items too easily in 5e you wreck the already little balance there is. 5e is designed to be played by player skills only and magic items are said to be very very rare. That is said in dmg and it even gets noticed by random tables which barely gives out +1 weapons and armor are even harder to get by.
Unless you as a dm gets your players often with theirs pants down, magic items will definitely make them much stronger if you give them too many. Like if you give the +2 armors at level 10 you are too fast.
That is not counting abilities like infinite life for combat druids at level 20.
But to each its own. I preffer to follow the books and my players preffer to always have bis gears on them. But since they like challenges they understand me not giving them too much items. But yeah... They resell everything that doesnt boost their attack or damage or anything not giving them more resistance or ac.
Thats a video game syndrome. Get best in slots or get lost attitude.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
Matt always put more hp and more ac to his monsters. So that kraken was more then cr 23.
As for help. I meant for the pitfiend. Pitfiend + 2 marilith. They rushed the pitfiend and killed it in 2 rounds.
You are the first to say you played 1e and 2e... But honestly during those times none of the 8-10 groups i played with were min maxing. Min maxing came around with 3e. At least in popularity.
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
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--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)
A 10th level party took down a pit fiend in 2 rounds while it and a pair of mariliths were on the scene? That sounds like something far more influential than an assortment of magic items was at play - especially with the mixing of demons (marilith) and devils (pit fiend) and that not being a three-way battle with the mariliths & PCs trying to kill the pit fiend, the pit fiend trying to kill the PCs and mariliths, and the PCs having to deal with the mariliths and pit fiend.
No min-maxing in your 8-10 groups, but plenty of it in mine - and enough of a thing to warrant the game books themselves addressing the issue. You personally not seeing it happen has zero actual bearing on whether it really happens or not... I mean, I've never personally witnessed a player get so mad about a character death that they refused to play anymore, but I believe other people when they tell me they have seen such a thing.-
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For published adventures I either knock a 0 at the end of the number (if that number has more than 2 digits in it AND if decreasing that number makes sense), OR I change up a higher value coinage for a lower value one. I've always liked the Gygaxian trope of "Yes, there's a lot of money here... but it's all in Copper and Silver. How much can you actually carry? How are you going to get from point A to point B?"
Edit: Lately I've been experimenting at handing out magic items very sparingly. Each of my players starts with at least one magic item, however that item is never a weapon or armor. I want to see what the player can come up with using mostly their own PC skills/abilities and player imagination.
Welcome to the Grand Illusion, come on in and see what's happening, pay the price, get your ticket for the show....
I start with the chart at the end of chapter one on starting characters at higher levels. So a 5th level would have 500gp + 1d10 * 25gp -- average 637.5gp. So a party of 5 should have earned ~3'187.5 go + living costs. That is a good book guide.
But actually, I vary from this based on need. Some campaigns have higher costs for spell casting (especially raise dead). Also, if the wizard is constantly shipping meals to pay for spellbooks, I give an bit more. On the other hand, the barbarian probably wastes any funds over cost of beer.
Money can ruin marriages! It can also run parties 😋😂. I adjust on the fly to keep the game fun.
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep 😁)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
I love giving to my players after a while kinda like the... Oh snaps this pays for everything else. And then see them trying to buy magic items to get BIS. Only to realise its not that easy and money is not used for items. At that point i usually hint at establishing themselves with certain locales and then get involved with higher monarchies.
Like the group just got a ton of money from a temple run they just did. Like they found the vaults. They resold the higher magic items they found to a collector of super rare magic items. Got a few uncommon and rare and had enough to buy themselves a castle or something. They decided to start a tavern in the metropole. They paid 8k for the cost of a 100x100 feet terrain to build a 3 story high building. They added 2k because they didn't want to wait 60 days for it to be built and haggled to 30 days. They gonna brew their own beers and have parties over there. This is gonna be awesome and will open a ton of doors for them.
I love to show players that money isnt just for magic items in this game !!!
DM of two gaming groups.
Likes to create stuff.
Check out my homebrew --> Monsters --> Magical Items --> Races --> Subclasses
If you like --> Upvote, If you wanna comment --> Comment
Play by Post Games
--> One Shot Adventure - House of Artwood (DM) (Completed)