Hey fellow DMs, I'm looking for some advice on the topic of pacing, specifically in dungeon exploration. How do you, as the DM, help guide the player character's pacing so that they don't end up in the dragon's lair (or whatever big, bad evil thing you've prepared) before taking a rest?
A campaign I was running a few months ago ended with a TPK. There were several reasons that the party ultimately ended up as a monster food, but the main problem was they pushed into the danger without taking time to rest between encounters. I felt that I did everything I could to warn the group that something dangerous was waiting for them up ahead. I described bones littering the ground, an intensifying soundtrack, a gate of black fog leading into the next chamber, an NPC had even warned them to be prepared -- but the players weren't worried, and they pushed onward with some party members at half health, few spell slots, and used up class features. TPK ensued.
So, that was months ago, and I hope I've learned from my own mistakes. Now, the same group is in a different campaign, and a dungeon exploration is upon them again. Returning to the original question, any tips for helping set the pace? Should I flat out tell the party, "the dragon's chamber is up ahead, and y'all should rest before going inside or you'll die" or what? Tips and thoughts appreciated!
In all honesty it sounds like you made a more than reasonable attempt to warn the party that a break would be required, if they are not going to heed warning signs then a TPK just re-enforces the sense of peril that characters can die. About a month ago I had a similar issue, at the end of one session the party had just entered the old ruins that the villains had recently arrived at and were running a bit low, but also keen to push ahead and stop the evil scheme of evil as fast as they could next session.
So by the next session the entrance hall contains a journal someone dropped complaining about the flesh golem bodyguard, even though they will be vulnerable after the ritual noone will find them, so the creepy thing is just not needed. This was followed a battle with some creatures guarding the ruins to get the party dangerously weak and make it utterly unambiguous that anything more than a trivial fight is going to risk characters dropping. Then just before the chamber containing the big bad were a couple of empty side rooms that in a digital medium would include a save point. The door to the main chamber was also ajar so that if the party continued they would safely be able to see they were massively outnumbered and would need to wait for a better opportunity.
Your job is to set up challenges, and provide a fair chance for the party: give them chances to get more information, gather intelligence, and make an informed choice.
It sounds like you are doing that. If they refuse to do that - if they insist on acting stupidly - then that's the way they've chosen to play it.
It sounds like you might need to talk to your Players about playing a little more tactically, and explain to them that if they aren't going to be more tactical, the world will kill them.
I guess you could kill of the party, and move it to an afterlife based campaign? :p
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Usually, when players are pushing forward when it's ill advised they have a reason for it.
It could be that they don't feel they could rest safely without first killing the boss, it could be that they think there's some time pressure that may or may not actually exist, it could be that they don't like the idea of resting in the dungeon like that from a role playing perspective, or it could be that they're just stubborn and think they can manage.
The key to proper pacing, is finding out why they're making the choices they are.
If you routinely interrupt their rest, you shouldn't be surprised that they want to push on to minimize the number of encounters before the boss. If they're misunderstanding time pressures, you should probably either clear things up or at least drop hints that they have enough time to rest. If it's about roleplaying, you may want to consider switching to a shorter rest variant. If they're stubborn, well, then they can go die.
In all honesty it sounds like you made a more than reasonable attempt to warn the party that a break would be required, if they are not going to heed warning signs then a TPK just re-enforces the sense of peril that characters can die...
Right, I'm hoping they'll take it carefully given how the last dungeon went.
It sounds like you might need to talk to your Players about playing a little more tactically, and explain to them that if they aren't going to be more tactical, the world will kill them.
I guess you could kill of the party, and move it to an afterlife based campaign? :p
Yeah, I have warned them a few times that I won't deus ex machina their butts out of danger. I lay out the scenario, they make their choices, we work out the natural result. I don't fudge anything just to keep them alive UNLESS I clearly miscalculated something and made an impossible to win encounter, but that hasn't been the case yet. Hopefully they know that by now. Also, some of the group members were pretty salty about the TPK, and the afterlife campaign was a real discussion. xD
The key to proper pacing, is finding out why they're making the choices they are.
If you routinely interrupt their rest, you shouldn't be surprised that they want to push on to minimize the number of encounters before the boss. If they're misunderstanding time pressures, you should probably either clear things up or at least drop hints that they have enough time to rest. If it's about roleplaying, you may want to consider switching to a shorter rest variant. If they're stubborn, well, then they can go die.
I think I understand what you mean here, but could you elaborate on what you'd do to address those issues? For instance, I think the players would agree that I had clearly explained there was something dangerous ahead, but they had underestimated just how dangerous it was. Was that them being stubborn, or should I have been more explicit in telling them to rest beforehand? Also, could you explain what you mean by a shorter rest variant? Does that mean having a short rest be something closer to 10 minutes instead of 1 hour? Thanks!
The key to proper pacing, is finding out why they're making the choices they are.
If you routinely interrupt their rest, you shouldn't be surprised that they want to push on to minimize the number of encounters before the boss. If they're misunderstanding time pressures, you should probably either clear things up or at least drop hints that they have enough time to rest. If it's about roleplaying, you may want to consider switching to a shorter rest variant. If they're stubborn, well, then they can go die.
I think I understand what you mean here, but could you elaborate on what you'd do to address those issues? For instance, I think the players would agree that I had clearly explained there was something dangerous ahead, but they had underestimated just how dangerous it was. Was that them being stubborn, or should I have been more explicit in telling them to rest beforehand? Also, could you explain what you mean by a shorter rest variant? Does that mean having a short rest be something closer to 10 minutes instead of 1 hour? Thanks!
If the reason was overconfidence as you suggest, the problem probably got solved with the TPK. For shorter rest variant, I mean the variant adventuring rules in ch9 of the DMG, specifically the epic heroism rule.
A bit off topic, but if you ever decide to do an "afterlife campaign", you might take a look at Wraith: The Oblivion - great, although complex and highly psychological PRG.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
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Hey fellow DMs, I'm looking for some advice on the topic of pacing, specifically in dungeon exploration. How do you, as the DM, help guide the player character's pacing so that they don't end up in the dragon's lair (or whatever big, bad evil thing you've prepared) before taking a rest?
A campaign I was running a few months ago ended with a TPK. There were several reasons that the party ultimately ended up as a monster food, but the main problem was they pushed into the danger without taking time to rest between encounters. I felt that I did everything I could to warn the group that something dangerous was waiting for them up ahead. I described bones littering the ground, an intensifying soundtrack, a gate of black fog leading into the next chamber, an NPC had even warned them to be prepared -- but the players weren't worried, and they pushed onward with some party members at half health, few spell slots, and used up class features. TPK ensued.
So, that was months ago, and I hope I've learned from my own mistakes. Now, the same group is in a different campaign, and a dungeon exploration is upon them again. Returning to the original question, any tips for helping set the pace? Should I flat out tell the party, "the dragon's chamber is up ahead, and y'all should rest before going inside or you'll die" or what? Tips and thoughts appreciated!
In all honesty it sounds like you made a more than reasonable attempt to warn the party that a break would be required, if they are not going to heed warning signs then a TPK just re-enforces the sense of peril that characters can die. About a month ago I had a similar issue, at the end of one session the party had just entered the old ruins that the villains had recently arrived at and were running a bit low, but also keen to push ahead and stop the evil scheme of evil as fast as they could next session.
So by the next session the entrance hall contains a journal someone dropped complaining about the flesh golem bodyguard, even though they will be vulnerable after the ritual noone will find them, so the creepy thing is just not needed. This was followed a battle with some creatures guarding the ruins to get the party dangerously weak and make it utterly unambiguous that anything more than a trivial fight is going to risk characters dropping. Then just before the chamber containing the big bad were a couple of empty side rooms that in a digital medium would include a save point. The door to the main chamber was also ajar so that if the party continued they would safely be able to see they were massively outnumbered and would need to wait for a better opportunity.
You can't play the game for the Players.
Your job is to set up challenges, and provide a fair chance for the party: give them chances to get more information, gather intelligence, and make an informed choice.
It sounds like you are doing that. If they refuse to do that - if they insist on acting stupidly - then that's the way they've chosen to play it.
It sounds like you might need to talk to your Players about playing a little more tactically, and explain to them that if they aren't going to be more tactical, the world will kill them.
I guess you could kill of the party, and move it to an afterlife based campaign? :p
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Usually, when players are pushing forward when it's ill advised they have a reason for it.
It could be that they don't feel they could rest safely without first killing the boss, it could be that they think there's some time pressure that may or may not actually exist, it could be that they don't like the idea of resting in the dungeon like that from a role playing perspective, or it could be that they're just stubborn and think they can manage.
The key to proper pacing, is finding out why they're making the choices they are.
If you routinely interrupt their rest, you shouldn't be surprised that they want to push on to minimize the number of encounters before the boss. If they're misunderstanding time pressures, you should probably either clear things up or at least drop hints that they have enough time to rest. If it's about roleplaying, you may want to consider switching to a shorter rest variant. If they're stubborn, well, then they can go die.
Right, I'm hoping they'll take it carefully given how the last dungeon went.
Yeah, I have warned them a few times that I won't deus ex machina their butts out of danger. I lay out the scenario, they make their choices, we work out the natural result. I don't fudge anything just to keep them alive UNLESS I clearly miscalculated something and made an impossible to win encounter, but that hasn't been the case yet. Hopefully they know that by now. Also, some of the group members were pretty salty about the TPK, and the afterlife campaign was a real discussion. xD
I think I understand what you mean here, but could you elaborate on what you'd do to address those issues? For instance, I think the players would agree that I had clearly explained there was something dangerous ahead, but they had underestimated just how dangerous it was. Was that them being stubborn, or should I have been more explicit in telling them to rest beforehand? Also, could you explain what you mean by a shorter rest variant? Does that mean having a short rest be something closer to 10 minutes instead of 1 hour? Thanks!
If the reason was overconfidence as you suggest, the problem probably got solved with the TPK. For shorter rest variant, I mean the variant adventuring rules in ch9 of the DMG, specifically the epic heroism rule.
A bit off topic, but if you ever decide to do an "afterlife campaign", you might take a look at Wraith: The Oblivion - great, although complex and highly psychological PRG.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.