Looking for some insight again for my next session on Friday. For the past couple sessions upon reaching a new continent the party has been navigating a jungle filled with a magical blight. The source was a Demilich and a homebrew Deathknight giant. They managed to barely kill the Demilich (one party member died, but was reincarnated). Over the past few sessions they have received information about a peaceful group of stone giants that were corrupted. They were supposed to kill the Demilich (done), although they now know how to cure the blight and were supposed to help this Deathknight type npc by curing them of the blight. But have opted for combat instead. Problem is they have already seen how strong this creature is and, have a very slim chance of defeating it. I am not sure how to proceed as i do not want to tpk the group, but obviously do not want to tell them " Hey, your not supposed to fight this creature I have made it obvious its stronger than you".
Realistically all you can do is reiterate to the group how strong this creature is, have them witness from afar the Deathknight (benefits of it being a giant) doing battle with some horrible monster/creature that the Deathknight readily and soundly defeats, then on the parties way to encounter the Deathknight have the party themselves encounter another of the same creature and become embroiled in a fight with it, the creature should be of a level where they can potentially defeat it, but will require a lot of clever thinking / consumed resources.
This should reiterate to the group that if they struggled with the creature and the Deathknight crushed it single handed and with little trouble that perhaps engaging in a combat with him is not to their best interests.
If even after doing the above and/or other means to show just how strong his is your party decides to fight him then realistically that is their choice to very likely meet their end, you could incorporate some kind of "escape path" that the party could use to their advantage, perhaps a cave system that is to small for him to follow them inside as they flee, this will serve two purposes; firstly it gives the group an option to prevent the looming TPK if the fight goes south whilst secondly reminding the party that they are not invincible and should evaluate situations beforehand thus giving you some form of "future proofing" for future encounters.
All in all though, if a party is determined to die then they will find a way, it is not your job as DM to protect them from their own blatant stupid actions, if they choose to go into a fight that will in all likely hood kill them with little to no chance of success, then they cannot really complain if the fates do not intervene to save them from their own rash choices!
Let them fight it. You'd be surprised how lucky the party can be sometimes. That being said, if they aren't lucky, maybe the deathknight giant wants something from them so it doesn't kill them, but instead forces them to work for it. Maybe the deathknight giant wants to find a way to infuse the power of the demilich into its own being. This gives the party a new quest and story hooks so they can grow stronger over time. Maybe they even learn of a way to infuse the power of the demilich into one of the players with gives them a mcguffin power that can help weaking the deathknight giant but this would be at the cost of the player's life (1d10 days to whither away). That could be the next story, the infusion traps the soul in a limbo realm so the body dies slowly and once it's completely dead, there's no way to retrieve the soul. The party now has to find the realm where the soul is kept while racing a ticking clock mechanic so they can save the slowly dying party member.
I like mindless monsters as much as the next guy, but I feel like the deathknight giant means something more to you than "lumbering monster" so think about giving it its own goals and personality that could overlap with similar goals for the party. This could keep them from outright dying at the creature's hands and make for a more engaging villain/BBEG.
I keep in mind that players, like mobs, don't have to die. They can be captured and stabilized. Deathnight can have minions come out, tie a player up and try to take them during the fight. Could open up new dialogs and issues if they are all captured.
Oh, here's a cool idea. You said there were other giants out there. Maybe they are sick and you can learn a new spell or mcguffin ritual that clears up some of the problem for them. This could lead to finding a stronger version of the spell. You could go into battle with a couple DMNPC giants that could help. Then it could be a football case sort of battle. The party has to hold off the giant while the party tries to remove the corruption. Have it take 5 rounds or so and the main goal isn't to kill the Deathknight giant, but to hold it off long enough for the ritual to come through. And it gives the party ties with the giants that are already out in the region.
If the fight is enevitable, and you’re totally against a TPK (why are you against this by the way?) then you have a couple of choices.
Does it matter to the plot if the deathknight dies here?
If it doesn’t matter, decrease the power - allow it to be a fight the party have a chance of winning. That’s the simple option.
If the deathknight can’t die at this stage, for critical plot breaking reasons, then have him be driven off at half hp, or after a certain number of rounds. This lets you demonstrate his toughness, perhaps knocking a couple of players unconscious, without wiping the party. It also sets up a later encounter, when your players know what to expect - and are better levelled and prepared.
Thanks for the input all, still toiling over what to do.
The main problem is that they have already been shown the strength of this creature (its killed a few npc's), and we ended last session with them initiating combat. Getting hit in the face with the Hellfire Orb, being like crap. and the mage popping a wall of force around the group for a breather and decide what to do.
Killing the Death Knight isn't story breaking, I can adjust things. Although this was intended to be a NPC to help them vs the big baddie later. I am also not totally against TPK, its just been almost a 2 year campaign, and my first one ive DM'ed. I kinda feel like i fail if they TPK.
I guess i am just a little frustrated that i keep giving them plot hooks. But they keep deciding on combat over anything else (RP, Story, Negotiation, etc). Its their game so i want them to have fun, but story had more than combat haha. Trials of a noob DM.
I guess i am just a little frustrated that i keep giving them plot hooks. But they keep deciding on combat over anything else (RP, Story, Negotiation, etc). Its their game so i want them to have fun, but story had more than combat haha. Trials of a noob DM.
If all they're interested in is combat, and believe that there is no way they could lose said combat, it sounds like an Icarus situation. This party is about to fly too close to the sun, let them get burned. If they keep leaping off the cliff some one is going to eventually hit the ground.
The reality is, some parties just enjoy combat in DnD more than anything else. But also, some parties don’t realise there’s another option - we’re so used to having to figure ‘how to take the bad guy down’ in games and movies, that your players might not have considered there’s an alternative.
Perhaps you could strongly emphasise that they have a cure for the blight in the recap of your next session. If combat has always been the solution to the problem thus far in the campaign, you need to really hammer home there’s an alternative.
But ultimately, if they still decide combat is the only way, there has to be a way to fail. That’s just DnD - and your party might think differently about rushing into a fight next time.
Tell your players that, ICly, they know their capabilities, they know how tough the opponent is, and they are 100% certain they don't stand a snowball's chance up a red dragon's bumhole of surviving a straight up fight.
Then, let the chips fall where they may.
Now, the opposition can, of course, just go for knockouts and capture the PCs, IF you can come up with a good reason for them to do so. If not, well ... that's the way the mop flops.
Up the power of the death knight and absolutely mop the floor with the party. Like, 2-3 rounds, done. Then when there’s one left standing, the death knight can get all maudlin and poetic about “all this power, and I still can’t save my people....” then the lone pc (hopefully) says we can help you blah blah blah, you stabilise the group and off you go again.
So session done, i had a conversation with the group after about how this was supposed to be a rescue encounter not a combat to the death. One player was mad he never realized. I asked the group for some feedback on my DM'ing, that turned out pretty well.
So combat, they BARELY survived. It was kinda epic. Best part i didnt fudge the rolls!
Take a look at my IG post for the deets if interested.
Hey everyone,
Looking for some insight again for my next session on Friday. For the past couple sessions upon reaching a new continent the party has been navigating a jungle filled with a magical blight. The source was a Demilich and a homebrew Deathknight giant. They managed to barely kill the Demilich (one party member died, but was reincarnated). Over the past few sessions they have received information about a peaceful group of stone giants that were corrupted. They were supposed to kill the Demilich (done), although they now know how to cure the blight and were supposed to help this Deathknight type npc by curing them of the blight. But have opted for combat instead. Problem is they have already seen how strong this creature is and, have a very slim chance of defeating it. I am not sure how to proceed as i do not want to tpk the group, but obviously do not want to tell them " Hey, your not supposed to fight this creature I have made it obvious its stronger than you".
Thanks for any ideas!
-Jon
Realistically all you can do is reiterate to the group how strong this creature is, have them witness from afar the Deathknight (benefits of it being a giant) doing battle with some horrible monster/creature that the Deathknight readily and soundly defeats, then on the parties way to encounter the Deathknight have the party themselves encounter another of the same creature and become embroiled in a fight with it, the creature should be of a level where they can potentially defeat it, but will require a lot of clever thinking / consumed resources.
This should reiterate to the group that if they struggled with the creature and the Deathknight crushed it single handed and with little trouble that perhaps engaging in a combat with him is not to their best interests.
If even after doing the above and/or other means to show just how strong his is your party decides to fight him then realistically that is their choice to very likely meet their end, you could incorporate some kind of "escape path" that the party could use to their advantage, perhaps a cave system that is to small for him to follow them inside as they flee, this will serve two purposes; firstly it gives the group an option to prevent the looming TPK if the fight goes south whilst secondly reminding the party that they are not invincible and should evaluate situations beforehand thus giving you some form of "future proofing" for future encounters.
All in all though, if a party is determined to die then they will find a way, it is not your job as DM to protect them from their own blatant stupid actions, if they choose to go into a fight that will in all likely hood kill them with little to no chance of success, then they cannot really complain if the fates do not intervene to save them from their own rash choices!
Hope this helped and good luck!
-Michael
Have it kill a group obviously stronger then them.
. . and they discover the groups remains and adventure journal.
Possibly even a crippled survivor missing legs and or arms but made the death saves.
Itinerant Deputy Shire-reave Tomas Burrfoot - world walker, Raft-captain, speaker to his dead
Toddy Shelfungus- Rider of the Order of Ill Luck, Speaker to Friends of Friends, and Horribly big nosed
Jarl Archi of Jenisis Glade Fee- Noble Knight of the Dragonborn Goldcrest Clan, Sorcerer of the Noble Investigator;y; Knightly order of the Wolfhound
Let them fight it. You'd be surprised how lucky the party can be sometimes. That being said, if they aren't lucky, maybe the deathknight giant wants something from them so it doesn't kill them, but instead forces them to work for it. Maybe the deathknight giant wants to find a way to infuse the power of the demilich into its own being. This gives the party a new quest and story hooks so they can grow stronger over time. Maybe they even learn of a way to infuse the power of the demilich into one of the players with gives them a mcguffin power that can help weaking the deathknight giant but this would be at the cost of the player's life (1d10 days to whither away). That could be the next story, the infusion traps the soul in a limbo realm so the body dies slowly and once it's completely dead, there's no way to retrieve the soul. The party now has to find the realm where the soul is kept while racing a ticking clock mechanic so they can save the slowly dying party member.
I like mindless monsters as much as the next guy, but I feel like the deathknight giant means something more to you than "lumbering monster" so think about giving it its own goals and personality that could overlap with similar goals for the party. This could keep them from outright dying at the creature's hands and make for a more engaging villain/BBEG.
I keep in mind that players, like mobs, don't have to die. They can be captured and stabilized. Deathnight can have minions come out, tie a player up and try to take them during the fight. Could open up new dialogs and issues if they are all captured.
Oh, here's a cool idea. You said there were other giants out there. Maybe they are sick and you can learn a new spell or mcguffin ritual that clears up some of the problem for them. This could lead to finding a stronger version of the spell. You could go into battle with a couple DMNPC giants that could help. Then it could be a football case sort of battle. The party has to hold off the giant while the party tries to remove the corruption. Have it take 5 rounds or so and the main goal isn't to kill the Deathknight giant, but to hold it off long enough for the ritual to come through. And it gives the party ties with the giants that are already out in the region.
If the fight is enevitable, and you’re totally against a TPK (why are you against this by the way?) then you have a couple of choices.
Does it matter to the plot if the deathknight dies here?
If it doesn’t matter, decrease the power - allow it to be a fight the party have a chance of winning. That’s the simple option.
If the deathknight can’t die at this stage, for critical plot breaking reasons, then have him be driven off at half hp, or after a certain number of rounds. This lets you demonstrate his toughness, perhaps knocking a couple of players unconscious, without wiping the party. It also sets up a later encounter, when your players know what to expect - and are better levelled and prepared.
Thanks for the input all, still toiling over what to do.
The main problem is that they have already been shown the strength of this creature (its killed a few npc's), and we ended last session with them initiating combat. Getting hit in the face with the Hellfire Orb, being like crap. and the mage popping a wall of force around the group for a breather and decide what to do.
Killing the Death Knight isn't story breaking, I can adjust things. Although this was intended to be a NPC to help them vs the big baddie later. I am also not totally against TPK, its just been almost a 2 year campaign, and my first one ive DM'ed. I kinda feel like i fail if they TPK.
I guess i am just a little frustrated that i keep giving them plot hooks. But they keep deciding on combat over anything else (RP, Story, Negotiation, etc). Its their game so i want them to have fun, but story had more than combat haha. Trials of a noob DM.
If all they're interested in is combat, and believe that there is no way they could lose said combat, it sounds like an Icarus situation. This party is about to fly too close to the sun, let them get burned. If they keep leaping off the cliff some one is going to eventually hit the ground.
The reality is, some parties just enjoy combat in DnD more than anything else. But also, some parties don’t realise there’s another option - we’re so used to having to figure ‘how to take the bad guy down’ in games and movies, that your players might not have considered there’s an alternative.
Perhaps you could strongly emphasise that they have a cure for the blight in the recap of your next session. If combat has always been the solution to the problem thus far in the campaign, you need to really hammer home there’s an alternative.
But ultimately, if they still decide combat is the only way, there has to be a way to fail. That’s just DnD - and your party might think differently about rushing into a fight next time.
Tell your players that, ICly, they know their capabilities, they know how tough the opponent is, and they are 100% certain they don't stand a snowball's chance up a red dragon's bumhole of surviving a straight up fight.
Then, let the chips fall where they may.
Now, the opposition can, of course, just go for knockouts and capture the PCs, IF you can come up with a good reason for them to do so. If not, well ... that's the way the mop flops.
Up the power of the death knight and absolutely mop the floor with the party. Like, 2-3 rounds, done. Then when there’s one left standing, the death knight can get all maudlin and poetic about “all this power, and I still can’t save my people....” then the lone pc (hopefully) says we can help you blah blah blah, you stabilise the group and off you go again.
So session done, i had a conversation with the group after about how this was supposed to be a rescue encounter not a combat to the death. One player was mad he never realized. I asked the group for some feedback on my DM'ing, that turned out pretty well.
So combat, they BARELY survived. It was kinda epic. Best part i didnt fudge the rolls!
Take a look at my IG post for the deets if interested.
https://www.instagram.com/p/B0Z-E2UnfHX/?igshid=ltyg3ytz38hh
TPK them. Maybe they'll learn to try other approaches then.