I was hoping for some help from people with more experience than I have. i am DMing the LMoP campaign with my friends and all of us are first timers. I have a player who I suppose could be termed 'a problem' because of the way he tries to think his way around problems, but I honestly thing his ingenuity is really cool, the only downside is that I have to try to implement or rule against his plans. His plan for dealing with Venonfang is as follows. To use a potion of invisibility in conjunction with Dimension Door, to get to the top of the tower and throw two powder kegs at him whilst the rest of the party distract the dragon.
My question is in two parts, firstly would this be a surprise attack. It would be passive perception of 17 vs a stealth roll from the character? I guess I'm unclear of the interaction here.
Secondly at what point would this be considered combat. Would it be before he throws the kegs, or afterwards.
Thank you in advance for any help you guys can give me.
That's a pretty cool idea he has. Let me help break down the rules:
Even while invisible, creatures are still aware of your presence and where you are unless you take the hide action; doing so while invisible grants you Advantage on your Stealth roll. So, yes, while creeping up above the dragon on top of the tower he will need to make a Stealth check (with advantage) against the dragons Passive Perception. If he fails, the dragon hears him or otherwise knows there's some presence on top of the tower and will act accordingly - though wouldn't know exactly what that presence is.
For your second question, initiative is typically rolled as soon as someone performs a hostile action. As soon as the player goes to throw those kegs, he is making an attack, and initiative should be rolled. Typically, without a surprise round (meaning everyone on one side of combat has the surprised when initiative is rolled) this gives others a chance to do something before the creature that is actually initiating combat.
For example, a party might be having a heated argument with a group of soon-to-be enemies, and one of the players says "I grow tired of this and throw a dagger at one of them." Some DM's would allow this attack to happen first, and then initiative to be rolled, but the way this should be handled RAW&RAI is that everyone will then roll initiative, and unless the enemies are all surprised by this (during a heated argument they would not be) then they may get to go before the player who tried to throw the dagger - think of it as they notice him pull it out, but may be able to move faster.
In your instance, it'd be hard to say if this should be a "surprise round" or not; typically (RAW) everyone on one side of combat needs to surprise everyone on the opposite side, or else no one is surprised. With what they plan to do, the dragon obviously wouldn't be surprised by the rest of the party, so a surprise round shouldn't happen. This is a situation you need to adjudicate as a DM. I would certainly say - so long as the player passed his stealth check to sneak up and throw down the barrels - that he should get to throw them down before the first round of combat.
Thanks for the help. I was leaning towards letting it happen just because rule of cool I want to see if he pulls it off. I was mostly unsure as to where to trigger 'ok this is a fight' but you've cleared it up perfectly.
Pretty much what Jaysburn said, except there is no such thing as a surprise round in 5e. Surprised is more of a condition, that means a creature can take no actions, movements or reactions, on their turn - but they still have their turn in initiative order. Once they have their turn, they are no longer surprised, even if other players have yet to take their turn. They can therefore take reactions.
This may seem a minor clarification, but it does affect some abilities, and means that, for example, if the surprised dragon is top of the initiative order, while they can’t do anything on their turn, they will have a reaction for the rest of the round.
How this should go, RAW:
1 - Character sneaking atop the tower declares their intent to throw a keg.
2 - Establish who is surprised.
3 - Roll initiative (for everyone, including surprised creatures)
4 - Follow initiative order as normal. If the dragon is surprised, on his turn all he can do is ‘be surprised.’ At the end of his turn, he is no longer surprised.
As mentioned, to inflict ‘surprised’ on a creature, your entire party will need to be hidden. If the dragon is aware of danger (from anyone, hidden or. otherwise), he cannot be surprised.
Indeed, "Surprise Round" is a misnomer as Surprise is, as you say, a condition; however, it is a condition that only lasts for one round and always the first round of combat. So I and many others simply call that round the Surprise round. That's why I put "surprise round" in quotations, though I see I didn't the first time I said it in that post.
That’s fine, except it doesn’t last for a round - it lasts for a turn - specifically until a surprised creature takes their turn in the intiative order - after which they are no longer surprised, even if others have yet to take a turn. I was just further clarifying that to help Jayfe understand the RAW for this situation.
It is a fairly common mistake to let everyone act before a surprised creature, then either roll initiative or 'unlock' the surprised creature in the intiative order.
This is a genius idea I make make available to my group that is in trouble with Venomfang. Perhaps, I will put powder kegs in the smithy as an option. I am wondering how a group of characters level 3, (should be 4 by the time they should "try" to deal with Venomfang) are supposed to drop a CR8 dragon to half HP. It seems fairly impossible to me, but with the creativity as above, I could have them attempt something like that and have them succeed without full combat.
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"Shadow Hide You..."
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I was hoping for some help from people with more experience than I have. i am DMing the LMoP campaign with my friends and all of us are first timers. I have a player who I suppose could be termed 'a problem' because of the way he tries to think his way around problems, but I honestly thing his ingenuity is really cool, the only downside is that I have to try to implement or rule against his plans. His plan for dealing with Venonfang is as follows. To use a potion of invisibility in conjunction with Dimension Door, to get to the top of the tower and throw two powder kegs at him whilst the rest of the party distract the dragon.
My question is in two parts, firstly would this be a surprise attack. It would be passive perception of 17 vs a stealth roll from the character? I guess I'm unclear of the interaction here.
Secondly at what point would this be considered combat. Would it be before he throws the kegs, or afterwards.
Thank you in advance for any help you guys can give me.
That's a pretty cool idea he has. Let me help break down the rules:
Even while invisible, creatures are still aware of your presence and where you are unless you take the hide action; doing so while invisible grants you Advantage on your Stealth roll. So, yes, while creeping up above the dragon on top of the tower he will need to make a Stealth check (with advantage) against the dragons Passive Perception. If he fails, the dragon hears him or otherwise knows there's some presence on top of the tower and will act accordingly - though wouldn't know exactly what that presence is.
For your second question, initiative is typically rolled as soon as someone performs a hostile action. As soon as the player goes to throw those kegs, he is making an attack, and initiative should be rolled. Typically, without a surprise round (meaning everyone on one side of combat has the surprised when initiative is rolled) this gives others a chance to do something before the creature that is actually initiating combat.
For example, a party might be having a heated argument with a group of soon-to-be enemies, and one of the players says "I grow tired of this and throw a dagger at one of them."
Some DM's would allow this attack to happen first, and then initiative to be rolled, but the way this should be handled RAW&RAI is that everyone will then roll initiative, and unless the enemies are all surprised by this (during a heated argument they would not be) then they may get to go before the player who tried to throw the dagger - think of it as they notice him pull it out, but may be able to move faster.
In your instance, it'd be hard to say if this should be a "surprise round" or not; typically (RAW) everyone on one side of combat needs to surprise everyone on the opposite side, or else no one is surprised. With what they plan to do, the dragon obviously wouldn't be surprised by the rest of the party, so a surprise round shouldn't happen. This is a situation you need to adjudicate as a DM. I would certainly say - so long as the player passed his stealth check to sneak up and throw down the barrels - that he should get to throw them down before the first round of combat.
Thanks for the help. I was leaning towards letting it happen just because rule of cool I want to see if he pulls it off. I was mostly unsure as to where to trigger 'ok this is a fight' but you've cleared it up perfectly.
Pretty much what Jaysburn said, except there is no such thing as a surprise round in 5e. Surprised is more of a condition, that means a creature can take no actions, movements or reactions, on their turn - but they still have their turn in initiative order. Once they have their turn, they are no longer surprised, even if other players have yet to take their turn. They can therefore take reactions.
This may seem a minor clarification, but it does affect some abilities, and means that, for example, if the surprised dragon is top of the initiative order, while they can’t do anything on their turn, they will have a reaction for the rest of the round.
How this should go, RAW:
1 - Character sneaking atop the tower declares their intent to throw a keg.
2 - Establish who is surprised.
3 - Roll initiative (for everyone, including surprised creatures)
4 - Follow initiative order as normal. If the dragon is surprised, on his turn all he can do is ‘be surprised.’ At the end of his turn, he is no longer surprised.
As mentioned, to inflict ‘surprised’ on a creature, your entire party will need to be hidden. If the dragon is aware of danger (from anyone, hidden or. otherwise), he cannot be surprised.
Indeed, "Surprise Round" is a misnomer as Surprise is, as you say, a condition; however, it is a condition that only lasts for one round and always the first round of combat. So I and many others simply call that round the Surprise round. That's why I put "surprise round" in quotations, though I see I didn't the first time I said it in that post.
That’s fine, except it doesn’t last for a round - it lasts for a turn - specifically until a surprised creature takes their turn in the intiative order - after which they are no longer surprised, even if others have yet to take a turn. I was just further clarifying that to help Jayfe understand the RAW for this situation.
It is a fairly common mistake to let everyone act before a surprised creature, then either roll initiative or 'unlock' the surprised creature in the intiative order.
Yes that is an important distinction, especially if you have an Assassin in your group.
Thats usually where the arguments stem from, yes.
Out of curiosity, how did your players get to 7th level... and where are the powder kegs coming from?
...cryptographic randomness!
This is a genius idea I make make available to my group that is in trouble with Venomfang. Perhaps, I will put powder kegs in the smithy as an option. I am wondering how a group of characters level 3, (should be 4 by the time they should "try" to deal with Venomfang) are supposed to drop a CR8 dragon to half HP. It seems fairly impossible to me, but with the creativity as above, I could have them attempt something like that and have them succeed without full combat.
"Shadow Hide You..."