One of my players has openly expressed the intention to create a near identical character if their character dies. Going to the lengths of telling other players to gather whatever equipment they drop upon death because they'll want it back.
This just seems to remove any real stakes from the game. I mean, the stakes aren't exactly high in the first place - you get to roll a new character of the same level. But now they won't even be changing class/race or losing any equipment. They basically just want to keep playing the old character with a new name. It just feels like a janky resurrection.
I know that as DM I can prohibit this. But how strict should I be, and are there any narrative ways of doing it so it seems less like DM fiat? Or should I just flat out say "new race and class after pc death" and wait out the wailing and gnashing of teeth?
Or do I just let it happen? I mean, technically, it's their loss, right? They're the one missing out on the drama of having a character in life and death situations.
I agree this seems really cheap - but there's really nothing to prevent them from making up a very similar Character. Some people have an Archetype they keep hammering at for a long time.
This is less likely to be possible if you make them roll for stats. How have you been assigning stat scores? Matt Colville's "4D6, discard the lowest, re-roll any totals less than 8, assign them in order from Strength to Charisma" method means Players discover their Character, not design it.
Where I'd draw the line is "collect my stuff, because I'll want it back".
Think about it from the perspective of the other members of the Party - why would they give all the equipment ( presumably some of it magical ), to a complete stranger who shows up? That would not happen in a realistic world setup.
I'd tell the Party that they're under no obligation not to collect, use, appropriate, or sell the gear. If they're in on the Plan, then that's a bit trickier.
Alternatively, it might depend on the circumstances of their demise. If they fell into a lava pool, well - good luck getting their gear. Also holds true if the bad guys capture and loot the body.
I wouldn't target the Character with something like this, just to foil their intentions, however.
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Hopefully, it'll just never come up. I definitely don't want to maneuver the character into a lava pool or similar, because that just precipitates the problem and the confrontation. But I'm also not going to pull punches. Maybe if it does happen, I can have a creature that does the deed grab the equipment and attempt to escape. There's definitely an easy narrative for the item most in question - Glasstaff's Staff of Defense, of which they managed to relieve him. Shoudn't be hard to spin a yarn that there remain some Glasstaff loyalists who are looking to break him out of his Neverwinter jail cell. They'd certainly look to curry favor by returning his eponymous weapon. Sound reasonable?
As for the other players, familial hierarchy plays a part - even at 13 and 18, it's tough for them to say no to mom. That's another issue I'm trying to resolve in the group - just because a player has authority in real life, that shouldn't extend to the characters.
If all else fails, I like the idea of using Colville's 'discover the character' method, thanks. I think next session I'll start out with addressing the possibility of character death and I'll describe that method for rerolling. Thankfully we are currently just using the premade LMoP characters, so I have no precedent for rolling characters. I'll try really hard to point out that this is for the benefit of the players - not the detriment. Embrace the drama of combat as intended, rather than as a video game with infinite save files. What better for an adventurer than to die heroically and be immortalized in history? Heck, if you want to, make your next character a bard and sing epic songs of your fallen predecessor! If you truly must, make another spellcaster and go after the staff. But your last character had to earn it in a quite epic manner, so this character should too.
I'm in a weird mood tonight, so my advice is to write this into the story. There's some weird cult or wizard literally reproducing this jamoke and even he isn't aware of it. Their purpose is to create a permanent guardian for what is actually their stuff. Now his character arc is to uncover the horrible truth about himself and either destroy this organization, which will mean fighting an army of his own clones, or accept his place as their slave and just wall himself up in a cave hugging his precious precious stuff close to him.
I've used a homebrew rule in one specific campaign, where players can make as many characters as they like, but it has to be different each time. They can still use the same class and even race, but they have to have new personality traits, flaws, ideals, all that. With the limitation on alignment though, that doesn't have to be different, there's only 9 different ones.
As a result of different personalities, most people would kinda end up picking a different class or subclass as well.
Oh my. I have a player who does this and it's absolutely awful.
Should you prohibit it? Absolutely. But unfortunately I didn't have the guts to...I just told him he had to change the name (he didn't even want to do that) personality (he didn't really have one in the first place) and appearance (which he ignored, but I was just so fed up I wanted to get on with the game by then). So, if you don't, I understand...but it sucks to play with clones. It really, really, sucks. I hope you're braver than I am, but I get it if you're not.
I understand you're playing with family though? That might change everything! In that case, maybe it's easier to talk to "mom" about why her intentions make the story less exciting for everyone. And, before telling her it's a problem, asking first why this particular character is so important might be a good move. Maybe the character reflects a personal dream from her childhood, or maybe she's not too clear on rules and is nervous about making a new character. If it's something like that, you might need to take things a little slower with her...I love bloodbath Game of Thrones style D&D, but that may not work for everyone.
If it is power gaming or "my OC!," though, and you do put a rule into place (and Sehanine bless you if you do!) I'd suggest limiting it to a race change, not a class change, since some people do have a playstyle they enjoy. My brother usually plays Fighters, but his characters are some of the most colorful and diverse I've ever seen, so it'd be no good hurting players like him.
That is why I have the house rule that the next character made has to be a different Race AND Class then the one that died. I deviated from this only once with a new player who had her PC die in the second session she ever played. Other then that I never made any exceptions.
Some great advice here, thanks everyone. I'm not sure precisely which route I'll take in the end, but you've given me more options, which is absolutely perfect.
My favorite idea is the 'army of clones', but as a new DM I'm not optimistic that I could make it work properly without totally derailing LMoP. If I do nothing and the behavior continues into future adventures, maybe I'll give it a shot.
Regarding motivations, I think it's as simple as her enjoying the power of the staff and not wanting to give it up - she expressed this intent almost the minute she got the staff. From day one she's had hard time with the 'glass' part of glass cannon, and kept putting herself in positions where taking damage was inevitable and then getting annoyed about it. Now the staff is giving her the best of both worlds.
Before I'd truly analysed the impact, I foolishly ruled that since she can cast her shield spell as a reaction, she can also use the staff to cast shield as a reaction, per this tweet from Jeremy Crawford. Top tip - DON'T DO THIS, it makes the staff too damn powerful especially in the hands of a low level character. As I'm sure you all could have warned me if I asked, since she only needs to use it if she already knows the attack would hit, it's like giving +5AC for 8-10 rounds at the cost of only 5 reactions. On top of the +1 AC just for the holding the thing. Hopefully it will become less pronounced as they level up and the encounters level up with them - they're only level 3 right now and did Agatha's Lair and Old Owl Well last night*. Or perhaps she'll use the last charge and roll a 1.
* as an aside, the necromancer, having failed his wisdom check, is currently digging straight down for the next eight hours.
you can always retro-fit that the staff has x amount of charges to use and no more. with each spell the staff holds using different charge values. meaning she has to make choices what to use and when. I sometimes have to tweak an item design and do this when talking with the player. explaining its too OP and why it needs to be tweaked down. and then see if she still has the same view of the PC Clone.
Huh. Yeah, I remember when I played LMOP as a wizard, that staff (plus some other magic item the DM gave me later) eventually made my wizard have the highest AC out of the entire group, including the fighter, BEFORE shield. Wizard-tank.
New DM, here, and haven't had to do this yet, so take this with a grain of salt...
I have a small stash of prerolled characters that I have on hand that are close to the level of what is currently in game. They are different from any current character currently in game by at least race or class, and sometimes both (not to mention backstory, etc.). If a character dies, the player can take one of these pre-rolled characters and we will immediately roleplay their entry into the group on the fly. They would need to stick with this "patched in" character for a game session or so before they roll in another character of their choosing. I don't think it's fair to make someone play a character long term that they're not invested in, but having these pre-rolled characters allows the player to stay in the game and keep the pace brisk while they take a little time deal with their loss. And I'm not being facetious about that.
The knee-jerk reaction for someone who is having a great time is to say to themselves, "That was awesome! I want more of that." Without considering that lots of possible character choices are awesome. Walking a few hexagons in another character's shoes while they gather their wits and take time to craft a new character should open up their minds about new possibilities.
Or not. I've known some very stubborn people who have one-track minds. And yeah, some of them are my relatives. :-)
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I’m a gamer. I’m in my 50s. I’m female. And Iblog about it. I also have an instagram devoted tophotos of dice.
You can’t really keep a player from doing it if they are a Wizard. My Wizard has a clone (wizard spell) in a demiplane (wizard spell) and his best equipment has instant summon (wizard spell). But that’s really no different than having a cleric that can true rez or a Druid that never ages.
I’d let him play how he likes, as even with clone or true rez there is no guarantee that would be possible. If you don’t die, you can’t go back to your clone or be resurrected but can be captured and put in a cell for an eternity. There’s always a way around their strategy but allow them to play the way they feel their character would live.
If my companion dies and there is no way to revive him/her then what isn't buried with the body will be divided between the group to be used or sold off as needed. I'm not going to give it to some random person I just met that joins the party just because they are the same class. If the player has a problem with that, then it is their problem, not mine.
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One of my players has openly expressed the intention to create a near identical character if their character dies. Going to the lengths of telling other players to gather whatever equipment they drop upon death because they'll want it back.
This just seems to remove any real stakes from the game. I mean, the stakes aren't exactly high in the first place - you get to roll a new character of the same level. But now they won't even be changing class/race or losing any equipment. They basically just want to keep playing the old character with a new name. It just feels like a janky resurrection.
I know that as DM I can prohibit this. But how strict should I be, and are there any narrative ways of doing it so it seems less like DM fiat? Or should I just flat out say "new race and class after pc death" and wait out the wailing and gnashing of teeth?
Or do I just let it happen? I mean, technically, it's their loss, right? They're the one missing out on the drama of having a character in life and death situations.
I agree this seems really cheap - but there's really nothing to prevent them from making up a very similar Character. Some people have an Archetype they keep hammering at for a long time.
This is less likely to be possible if you make them roll for stats. How have you been assigning stat scores? Matt Colville's "4D6, discard the lowest, re-roll any totals less than 8, assign them in order from Strength to Charisma" method means Players discover their Character, not design it.
Where I'd draw the line is "collect my stuff, because I'll want it back".
Think about it from the perspective of the other members of the Party - why would they give all the equipment ( presumably some of it magical ), to a complete stranger who shows up? That would not happen in a realistic world setup.
I'd tell the Party that they're under no obligation not to collect, use, appropriate, or sell the gear. If they're in on the Plan, then that's a bit trickier.
Alternatively, it might depend on the circumstances of their demise. If they fell into a lava pool, well - good luck getting their gear. Also holds true if the bad guys capture and loot the body.
I wouldn't target the Character with something like this, just to foil their intentions, however.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Hopefully, it'll just never come up. I definitely don't want to maneuver the character into a lava pool or similar, because that just precipitates the problem and the confrontation. But I'm also not going to pull punches. Maybe if it does happen, I can have a creature that does the deed grab the equipment and attempt to escape. There's definitely an easy narrative for the item most in question - Glasstaff's Staff of Defense, of which they managed to relieve him. Shoudn't be hard to spin a yarn that there remain some Glasstaff loyalists who are looking to break him out of his Neverwinter jail cell. They'd certainly look to curry favor by returning his eponymous weapon. Sound reasonable?
As for the other players, familial hierarchy plays a part - even at 13 and 18, it's tough for them to say no to mom. That's another issue I'm trying to resolve in the group - just because a player has authority in real life, that shouldn't extend to the characters.
If all else fails, I like the idea of using Colville's 'discover the character' method, thanks. I think next session I'll start out with addressing the possibility of character death and I'll describe that method for rerolling. Thankfully we are currently just using the premade LMoP characters, so I have no precedent for rolling characters. I'll try really hard to point out that this is for the benefit of the players - not the detriment. Embrace the drama of combat as intended, rather than as a video game with infinite save files. What better for an adventurer than to die heroically and be immortalized in history? Heck, if you want to, make your next character a bard and sing epic songs of your fallen predecessor! If you truly must, make another spellcaster and go after the staff. But your last character had to earn it in a quite epic manner, so this character should too.
I'm in a weird mood tonight, so my advice is to write this into the story. There's some weird cult or wizard literally reproducing this jamoke and even he isn't aware of it. Their purpose is to create a permanent guardian for what is actually their stuff. Now his character arc is to uncover the horrible truth about himself and either destroy this organization, which will mean fighting an army of his own clones, or accept his place as their slave and just wall himself up in a cave hugging his precious precious stuff close to him.
I've used a homebrew rule in one specific campaign, where players can make as many characters as they like, but it has to be different each time. They can still use the same class and even race, but they have to have new personality traits, flaws, ideals, all that. With the limitation on alignment though, that doesn't have to be different, there's only 9 different ones.
As a result of different personalities, most people would kinda end up picking a different class or subclass as well.
Also known as CrafterB and DankMemer.
Here, have some homebrew classes! Subclasses to? Why not races. Feats, feats as well. I have a lot of magic items. Lastly I got monsters, fun, fun times.
Have you asked this player why they want to do that? Talk to them and see what they're thinking.
Oh my. I have a player who does this and it's absolutely awful.
Should you prohibit it? Absolutely. But unfortunately I didn't have the guts to...I just told him he had to change the name (he didn't even want to do that) personality (he didn't really have one in the first place) and appearance (which he ignored, but I was just so fed up I wanted to get on with the game by then). So, if you don't, I understand...but it sucks to play with clones. It really, really, sucks. I hope you're braver than I am, but I get it if you're not.
I understand you're playing with family though? That might change everything! In that case, maybe it's easier to talk to "mom" about why her intentions make the story less exciting for everyone. And, before telling her it's a problem, asking first why this particular character is so important might be a good move. Maybe the character reflects a personal dream from her childhood, or maybe she's not too clear on rules and is nervous about making a new character. If it's something like that, you might need to take things a little slower with her...I love bloodbath Game of Thrones style D&D, but that may not work for everyone.
If it is power gaming or "my OC!," though, and you do put a rule into place (and Sehanine bless you if you do!) I'd suggest limiting it to a race change, not a class change, since some people do have a playstyle they enjoy. My brother usually plays Fighters, but his characters are some of the most colorful and diverse I've ever seen, so it'd be no good hurting players like him.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
That is why I have the house rule that the next character made has to be a different Race AND Class then the one that died. I deviated from this only once with a new player who had her PC die in the second session she ever played. Other then that I never made any exceptions.
Some great advice here, thanks everyone. I'm not sure precisely which route I'll take in the end, but you've given me more options, which is absolutely perfect.
My favorite idea is the 'army of clones', but as a new DM I'm not optimistic that I could make it work properly without totally derailing LMoP. If I do nothing and the behavior continues into future adventures, maybe I'll give it a shot.
Regarding motivations, I think it's as simple as her enjoying the power of the staff and not wanting to give it up - she expressed this intent almost the minute she got the staff. From day one she's had hard time with the 'glass' part of glass cannon, and kept putting herself in positions where taking damage was inevitable and then getting annoyed about it. Now the staff is giving her the best of both worlds.
Before I'd truly analysed the impact, I foolishly ruled that since she can cast her shield spell as a reaction, she can also use the staff to cast shield as a reaction, per this tweet from Jeremy Crawford. Top tip - DON'T DO THIS, it makes the staff too damn powerful especially in the hands of a low level character. As I'm sure you all could have warned me if I asked, since she only needs to use it if she already knows the attack would hit, it's like giving +5AC for 8-10 rounds at the cost of only 5 reactions. On top of the +1 AC just for the holding the thing. Hopefully it will become less pronounced as they level up and the encounters level up with them - they're only level 3 right now and did Agatha's Lair and Old Owl Well last night*. Or perhaps she'll use the last charge and roll a 1.
* as an aside, the necromancer, having failed his wisdom check, is currently digging straight down for the next eight hours.
you can always retro-fit that the staff has x amount of charges to use and no more. with each spell the staff holds using different charge values. meaning she has to make choices what to use and when. I sometimes have to tweak an item design and do this when talking with the player. explaining its too OP and why it needs to be tweaked down. and then see if she still has the same view of the PC Clone.
Huh. Yeah, I remember when I played LMOP as a wizard, that staff (plus some other magic item the DM gave me later) eventually made my wizard have the highest AC out of the entire group, including the fighter, BEFORE shield. Wizard-tank.
New DM, here, and haven't had to do this yet, so take this with a grain of salt...
I have a small stash of prerolled characters that I have on hand that are close to the level of what is currently in game. They are different from any current character currently in game by at least race or class, and sometimes both (not to mention backstory, etc.). If a character dies, the player can take one of these pre-rolled characters and we will immediately roleplay their entry into the group on the fly. They would need to stick with this "patched in" character for a game session or so before they roll in another character of their choosing. I don't think it's fair to make someone play a character long term that they're not invested in, but having these pre-rolled characters allows the player to stay in the game and keep the pace brisk while they take a little time deal with their loss. And I'm not being facetious about that.
The knee-jerk reaction for someone who is having a great time is to say to themselves, "That was awesome! I want more of that." Without considering that lots of possible character choices are awesome. Walking a few hexagons in another character's shoes while they gather their wits and take time to craft a new character should open up their minds about new possibilities.
Or not. I've known some very stubborn people who have one-track minds. And yeah, some of them are my relatives. :-)
I’m a gamer. I’m in my 50s. I’m female. And I blog about it.
I also have an instagram devoted to photos of dice.
You can’t really keep a player from doing it if they are a Wizard. My Wizard has a clone (wizard spell) in a demiplane (wizard spell) and his best equipment has instant summon (wizard spell). But that’s really no different than having a cleric that can true rez or a Druid that never ages.
I’d let him play how he likes, as even with clone or true rez there is no guarantee that would be possible. If you don’t die, you can’t go back to your clone or be resurrected but can be captured and put in a cell for an eternity. There’s always a way around their strategy but allow them to play the way they feel their character would live.
If my companion dies and there is no way to revive him/her then what isn't buried with the body will be divided between the group to be used or sold off as needed. I'm not going to give it to some random person I just met that joins the party just because they are the same class. If the player has a problem with that, then it is their problem, not mine.