So I'm a new DM. I've played GURPS as a player for roughly 7 years, and spent a couple months DM it while the DM was traveling. I'm also new to D&D. Ive played some PC games, Baulders gate, Icewindale. but never tabletop.
Anyway. So my players are also new to D&D so we started simple and I purchased the Essentials Kit with the Dragon Of Icespire Peak campaign. We've been doing great. I've been adding some Homebrew to it to spice it up and put my own touch into it. So were on the Mountains Toe quest. The Party is escorting Don-Jon Raskin, and they got into the mine. during conversation between the Wererats and DJ one of my players didn't like that DJ didn't want the rats there and attacked him! then Killed HIM! I rolled the saving throws and DJ got up and ran, barring the door behind him. the group finished the encounter with the wererats and then cleared the Mine. Well... they attacked the NPC so the only reasonable course is when they arrived back to Phandolin they were arrested. Basically now I have to throw away the rest of the Module and move on to the Mad Mage that we were planning on starting in a couple weeks when they finished Icespire anyway. So now a couple homebrew sessions of them traveling in a prisoner transport cart to Waterdeep. One of the 4 players (Wizard) managed to talk his way out of it all and got away.. now hes following the cart. Im setting up a chance for him to be able to help them escape, either quietly or killing the guards. Then they move on to Waterdeep anyway.
No real point to the post, just sharing the frustration.
And if the character is one that would do such a thing, still stop the game and discuss it out of character. The character is NOT an entity into himself: he is created and controlled by a player, who has the opportunity to keep him in check. If the character is a d@#$, well, somebody's decided to make him as such. And if he's hurting the other players' fun, that somebody can either find a meta-reason for the character to behave, or he can make a new character.
In the end, I'd talk to the player, focusing on the fact that it's a game and the point is to have fun. Don't be accusatory, just ask if the two of you can cooperate to move the story along together. After all, the players aren't just participants in a DM's story-arena: they help tell the story too. If the player's a reasonable person, he/she should understand.
That's Our Players!! (Filmed in front of a live studio audience!)
Don't throw the module away, if that's really gonna frustrate you. Just relocate the incidents. It's 300+ miles from Phandalin to Waterdeep, and if your escaped prisoners have killed a bunch of guards, they'll have to stay off the High Road anyway. They might make their way north to Neverwinter to take a ship to Waterdeep. Then they find the Dragon Barrow, or get lost in Neverwinter Wood and stumble across the logging camp and work for food. If they head south, the logging camp is suddenly in the Kryptgarden Forest, or they reach the Excavation going over the mountains.
Or just keep it all in the file for when these characters get themselves killed and you start over.
Chaotic good Ranger. his justification was that DJ was being racist against the wererats because he refused to let them work for him in the mine. Not a big deal, we were only 2 or 3 play sessions from finishing the module anyway. just have to speed it up a bit. But now hes wanted and going to have to deal with that frequently. I'll just make sure he thinks twice about killing a quest NPC again.
Silver lining. the wizard is the only character that hasn't been arrested. Hes rather quiet and reserved during play, only really adding input during combat. Now i have a great opportunity to help him come out of his shell and make him interact with the game to figure out how to rescue his party. he can either kill the guards or be sneaky and release his friends. then kill the guards or escape.
Chaotic good Ranger. his justification was that DJ was being racist against the wererats because he refused to let them work for him in the mine. Not a big deal, we were only 2 or 3 play sessions from finishing the module anyway. just have to speed it up a bit. But now hes wanted and going to have to deal with that frequently. I'll just make sure he thinks twice about killing a quest NPC again.
I just had to delete my entire 2 paragraph rant. Smack the player. Racism arguments do not fly in D&D. Elves and Dwarves are allowed to hate Orcs and vice versa. It is fine. Removal of inherent tensions in the game and reimagining it as "we are all people here, no matter how different we look!" is well lame, and removes a lot of fun drama and scenarios we can run. If D-J dislikes/hates Wererats because he knows Wererats are evil and will knife him in the back as soon as look at him, that is not racism. Uggg!
Here's my counter points: How does the law in Phandelin know they killed them? Do they really see killing Wererats as "real people"? In the past in literature, often if you could prove someone was a monster in disguise, people wouldn't hold you responsible for murdering them-- you only killed a dangerous monster in their midst. Does Phandelin even really have law? There is a reason the Redbrands had overrun that town and have kidnapped and killed town members.
Maybe instead have the law deliberate and say "actually, no, that wasn't murder. you are free to go."
Although I am firmly in the camp that orc, goblin and other monsters don't really qualify as "real people", unless they have some sort of civilisation to legitimise them (e.g. giants).
OP said DJ did manage to escape and alert the law back in Phandalin.
IMO, I wouldn't have had them sent to Waterdeep. Local magistrate could handle this. And his ruling would be along the lines of "so you found an infestation of wererats - known cursed, evil creatures with no cure - and you decided to side with the wererats and attempt to murder an upstanding, law-abiding citizen of Phandalin? Guilty, and you are sentenced to three years labor in the mines." Now the rest of the crew can try to break out their friend and escape, or just roll up a new character for him.
Chaotic good Ranger. his justification was that DJ was being racist against the wererats because he refused to let them work for him in the mine. Not a big deal, we were only 2 or 3 play sessions from finishing the module anyway. just have to speed it up a bit. But now hes wanted and going to have to deal with that frequently. I'll just make sure he thinks twice about killing a quest NPC again.
Silver lining. the wizard is the only character that hasn't been arrested. Hes rather quiet and reserved during play, only really adding input during combat. Now i have a great opportunity to help him come out of his shell and make him interact with the game to figure out how to rescue his party. he can either kill the guards or be sneaky and release his friends. then kill the guards or escape.
Still, if you think a guy is being problematic towards wererats, there's TONS more creative solutions than "I attack him." Your player here has a video game mentality, that there's only a few, limited solutions to any problem (when the whole point of ttrpg's is diverse options for characters) , when if he really wanted to help the wererats then he should've tried talking to the NPC and convincing him not to discriminate.
Well today is the next play session and there's going to be words had on the side with the player. It turns out he doesn't want to play the ranger anymore and does not care what happens to him. then he went and made a warlock on the side that hes ready to use as his next char. so im basically going to tell him that just because he doesn't want to play that char anymore doesn't give him the right to cannonball the campaign and essentially ruin it for the rest of the group. not cool, and not fair. so for the next couple weeks im going to make him play that char to completion and when we get to the mad mage content in waterdeep in like 3 weeks (im going to draw out content with encounters and side notes) then he can make his new character with the rest of the group like we all talked when i revealed 2 weeks ago that mad mage was next. and he can make it with the rest of us together instead of going rogue.
side note. He plays GURPS with me and the off alignment chaotic play is very typical and him. and him tanking a char that he doesn't want to play anymore has happened before.
Geez, that's a jerk move. Torpedoing the party, making you deal with that stuff, because he didn't feel like playing that character anymore and wanted to kill them off?
You really have a player problem. I play old-school D&D so I really don't mind people playing avatars of themselves, nor playing 'out of alignment' as long as there are in-game consequences. Forcing players to play to 'role' seems heavy-handed to me.
I wouldn't however force him to play out a character he's not interested in. D&D is for fun, and forcing him to continue playing a character he is no longer interested in could lead to more issues at the table, harming the fun for everyone. Let him change and you take on his old PC.
I'd have a public discussion with the whole table to let them know that if any of them ever want to change characters, to discuss it with you and work out what happens to their current character. I've had former PCs become villains or helpful NPCs. There are lots of possibilities and players usually enjoy seeing their former PCs around. This character sounds perfect for perhaps escaping and joining some wererats and mounting attacks on locals. Perhaps he was a wererat all along, or becoming one, and that's why he acted the way he did.
So I'm a new DM. I've played GURPS as a player for roughly 7 years, and spent a couple months DM it while the DM was traveling. I'm also new to D&D. Ive played some PC games, Baulders gate, Icewindale. but never tabletop.
Anyway. So my players are also new to D&D so we started simple and I purchased the Essentials Kit with the Dragon Of Icespire Peak campaign. We've been doing great. I've been adding some Homebrew to it to spice it up and put my own touch into it. So were on the Mountains Toe quest. The Party is escorting Don-Jon Raskin, and they got into the mine. during conversation between the Wererats and DJ one of my players didn't like that DJ didn't want the rats there and attacked him! then Killed HIM! I rolled the saving throws and DJ got up and ran, barring the door behind him. the group finished the encounter with the wererats and then cleared the Mine. Well... they attacked the NPC so the only reasonable course is when they arrived back to Phandolin they were arrested. Basically now I have to throw away the rest of the Module and move on to the Mad Mage that we were planning on starting in a couple weeks when they finished Icespire anyway. So now a couple homebrew sessions of them traveling in a prisoner transport cart to Waterdeep. One of the 4 players (Wizard) managed to talk his way out of it all and got away.. now hes following the cart. Im setting up a chance for him to be able to help them escape, either quietly or killing the guards. Then they move on to Waterdeep anyway.
No real point to the post, just sharing the frustration.
And if the character is one that would do such a thing, still stop the game and discuss it out of character. The character is NOT an entity into himself: he is created and controlled by a player, who has the opportunity to keep him in check. If the character is a d@#$, well, somebody's decided to make him as such. And if he's hurting the other players' fun, that somebody can either find a meta-reason for the character to behave, or he can make a new character.
In the end, I'd talk to the player, focusing on the fact that it's a game and the point is to have fun. Don't be accusatory, just ask if the two of you can cooperate to move the story along together. After all, the players aren't just participants in a DM's story-arena: they help tell the story too. If the player's a reasonable person, he/she should understand.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
That's Our Players!! (Filmed in front of a live studio audience!)
Don't throw the module away, if that's really gonna frustrate you. Just relocate the incidents. It's 300+ miles from Phandalin to Waterdeep, and if your escaped prisoners have killed a bunch of guards, they'll have to stay off the High Road anyway. They might make their way north to Neverwinter to take a ship to Waterdeep. Then they find the Dragon Barrow, or get lost in Neverwinter Wood and stumble across the logging camp and work for food. If they head south, the logging camp is suddenly in the Kryptgarden Forest, or they reach the Excavation going over the mountains.
Or just keep it all in the file for when these characters get themselves killed and you start over.
Great on you for rolling with it, BTW. Excellent DMing, IMO.
Chaotic good Ranger. his justification was that DJ was being racist against the wererats because he refused to let them work for him in the mine. Not a big deal, we were only 2 or 3 play sessions from finishing the module anyway. just have to speed it up a bit. But now hes wanted and going to have to deal with that frequently. I'll just make sure he thinks twice about killing a quest NPC again.
Silver lining. the wizard is the only character that hasn't been arrested. Hes rather quiet and reserved during play, only really adding input during combat. Now i have a great opportunity to help him come out of his shell and make him interact with the game to figure out how to rescue his party. he can either kill the guards or be sneaky and release his friends. then kill the guards or escape.
"Chaotic Good" ranger
...yeeeah...
I think you may have a closet Evil. :-)
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
I just had to delete my entire 2 paragraph rant. Smack the player. Racism arguments do not fly in D&D. Elves and Dwarves are allowed to hate Orcs and vice versa. It is fine. Removal of inherent tensions in the game and reimagining it as "we are all people here, no matter how different we look!" is well lame, and removes a lot of fun drama and scenarios we can run. If D-J dislikes/hates Wererats because he knows Wererats are evil and will knife him in the back as soon as look at him, that is not racism. Uggg!
Here's my counter points: How does the law in Phandelin know they killed them? Do they really see killing Wererats as "real people"? In the past in literature, often if you could prove someone was a monster in disguise, people wouldn't hold you responsible for murdering them-- you only killed a dangerous monster in their midst. Does Phandelin even really have law? There is a reason the Redbrands had overrun that town and have kidnapped and killed town members.
Maybe instead have the law deliberate and say "actually, no, that wasn't murder. you are free to go."
Although I am firmly in the camp that orc, goblin and other monsters don't really qualify as "real people", unless they have some sort of civilisation to legitimise them (e.g. giants).
OP said DJ did manage to escape and alert the law back in Phandalin.
IMO, I wouldn't have had them sent to Waterdeep. Local magistrate could handle this. And his ruling would be along the lines of "so you found an infestation of wererats - known cursed, evil creatures with no cure - and you decided to side with the wererats and attempt to murder an upstanding, law-abiding citizen of Phandalin? Guilty, and you are sentenced to three years labor in the mines." Now the rest of the crew can try to break out their friend and escape, or just roll up a new character for him.
Still, if you think a guy is being problematic towards wererats, there's TONS more creative solutions than "I attack him." Your player here has a video game mentality, that there's only a few, limited solutions to any problem (when the whole point of ttrpg's is diverse options for characters) , when if he really wanted to help the wererats then he should've tried talking to the NPC and convincing him not to discriminate.
Well today is the next play session and there's going to be words had on the side with the player. It turns out he doesn't want to play the ranger anymore and does not care what happens to him. then he went and made a warlock on the side that hes ready to use as his next char. so im basically going to tell him that just because he doesn't want to play that char anymore doesn't give him the right to cannonball the campaign and essentially ruin it for the rest of the group. not cool, and not fair. so for the next couple weeks im going to make him play that char to completion and when we get to the mad mage content in waterdeep in like 3 weeks (im going to draw out content with encounters and side notes) then he can make his new character with the rest of the group like we all talked when i revealed 2 weeks ago that mad mage was next. and he can make it with the rest of us together instead of going rogue.
side note. He plays GURPS with me and the off alignment chaotic play is very typical and him. and him tanking a char that he doesn't want to play anymore has happened before.
Geez, that's a jerk move. Torpedoing the party, making you deal with that stuff, because he didn't feel like playing that character anymore and wanted to kill them off?
You really have a player problem. I play old-school D&D so I really don't mind people playing avatars of themselves, nor playing 'out of alignment' as long as there are in-game consequences. Forcing players to play to 'role' seems heavy-handed to me.
I wouldn't however force him to play out a character he's not interested in. D&D is for fun, and forcing him to continue playing a character he is no longer interested in could lead to more issues at the table, harming the fun for everyone. Let him change and you take on his old PC.
I'd have a public discussion with the whole table to let them know that if any of them ever want to change characters, to discuss it with you and work out what happens to their current character. I've had former PCs become villains or helpful NPCs. There are lots of possibilities and players usually enjoy seeing their former PCs around. This character sounds perfect for perhaps escaping and joining some wererats and mounting attacks on locals. Perhaps he was a wererat all along, or becoming one, and that's why he acted the way he did.