So, long story short I had a tpk a little while ago, and when my player built new characters i allowed them to have a few magic item’s that varied from very rare to uncommon. Needless to say several of the players now have extremely high AC (all legal builds), now my issue is finding encounters that they don’t just walk through. Already one of the players believes that they are untouchable, and no DM likes that song and dance. Any suggestions that don’t involve nerfing their items?
The answer to this seems too obvious, and so I think we must be missing some details.
What level are they?
What AC are they? What do you consider high AC?
What is the party make up?
I mean, chuck in a creature with +19 to hit and three attacks and AC doesn't matter so much. The highest base armour (pre magic) AC you can get is 21 with PhB rules. Magic based attacks, Intellect Devourers (stupid broken creatures, but they're an option), breath weapon attacks etc will all give them something to think about. The more individual attacks creatures are throwing, the better the chance you have of rolling a 20 and ignoring their AC whatever it is too. But you have to be careful so that having a good AC doesn't feel pointless. I play a tank built Eldritch Knight, so generally count as AC 26.
If the problem is purely AC then there are plenty of spells that don't care about AC at all - Fireball, Magic Missile, Meteor Swarm...
If you've allowed a bunch of magic items that aren't in line with their level (e.g. these are level 3 players) then I'd say you've made a mistake and need to rectify it. You can't really just nerf them, but where did these items come from? If their origins are unclear (or maybe if they are) then how about giving ALL of the items that they carry a horrible curse. They start to ooze oily, black slime and each item has a problematic side effect that grows stronger over time. For instance, a helmet might make the player's teeth start falling out. A sword might cause them to wake up naked in the street, holding only the sword and about to attack (or attacking) a villager. A wand might began fizzing and sparking with a 10% chance to explode each time it's used.
very easy is 5e they may have an absurdly high AC but what are their saves like? Use spells like heat metal or traps ala glyph of warding. Are they sleeping in their armor hit them with exhaustion.
So, long story short I had a tpk a little while ago, and when my player built new characters i allowed them to have a few magic item’s that varied from very rare to uncommon. Needless to say several of the players now have extremely high AC (all legal builds), now my issue is finding encounters that they don’t just walk through. Already one of the players believes that they are untouchable, and no DM likes that song and dance. Any suggestions that don’t involve nerfing their items?
Without knowing details of the characters, specific encounters are tough to design, but the usual solutions are increasing the encounter budget, using attack that don't go vs AC, and using attacks that cause damage even on a successful save.
It's worth mentioning in this thread that whatever the power level of the characters and their AC, you need to ensure that you don't make them feel like all that armour they're wearing is useless. Players take pride in their characters, especially if they feel like they have an attribute that the rest of the party doesn't have. There should be occasions where Fireball is super useful, occasions where Thieves Cant is useful, and fights where high AC is powerful. You might even want to make a list of "Strong and Weak" for fights to allow players to shine as individuals in specific fights. Try to design fights so that one or two of the following are super helpful, and one or two are weak. This will let your players occasionally feel like they were the individual hero in the battle, while preventing them being the hero every time.
Area effect damage
Single target damage
High armour class
Stealth
Non-combat abilities, e.g. musical instrument playing
Charm and possession abilities
Spells that alter terrain or provide movement
Two examples: A) Strong - Area effect damage, non-combat ability - musical instrument performance Weak - Charm and possession, single target damage The players are trying to approach a Stone Golem across a room full of venomous snakes. The golem will not wake up as long as a song is being played. There are 40 snakes, and they lie around the cavern.
B) Strong - Charm and possession, single target damage, High AC Weak - Strong - Area effect damage, Altering terrain, Stealth The PCs fight against a single Fighter NPC who is many levels higher than they are whilst they try to crack his safe in a town house. They don't want to kill him because he's not evil, so are looking to knock him out or just tank the damage, and don't want to blow up his house.
First, your comment "no DM likes that song and dance". Why not? This is not you vs. the Players. Personally, I want my Players to win - I just want them to feel like it was a hard fought and worthwhile victory. However - if you are looking merely to keep your Players challenged, that's another story.
On to your issue....
Don't rely solely on combat situations. The game has two other ( official ) "pillars": Social Interaction, and Exploration. Make sure you're using those.
Everyone seems focused on how to bypass the Party's combat strengths with different kinds of combat strengths. Bypass the combat strength issue entirely - some of the time, not all ( still give them some combat encounters where they very well might kick-ass all the time ) - by putting them in positions where combat just isn't the answer.
A high AC doesn't matter if you're trying to convince the King to not send troops to the border and make the already tense political situation worse. They concentrated solely on combat abilities and no one has proficiency in Persuasion? Well ... that's not your fault, is it?
They have plate armor and bracers of defense? Cool - but today we're exploring the jungle of Chult looking for the lost McGuffin of Irrelevance - sure you want to keep that armor on in this heat? Yes? OK ... give me a Con check to not suffer a level of exhaustion ...
Even in combat, you can put them in environments where their equipments is less effective. For example, underwater seems like it would be an unfriendly place for any Character who wanted to keep their Plate Armor on.
If they're hyper-focused on being kick-ass at combat, making your encounters challenging isn't a problem ( in fact it is easier ) - just give them other types of encounters.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
First, your comment "no DM likes that song and dance". Why not? This is not you vs. the Players. Personally, I want my Players to win - I just want them to feel like it was a hard fought and worthwhile victory. However - if you are looking merely to keep your Players challenged, that's another story.
On to your issue....
Don't rely solely on combat situations. The game has two other ( official ) "pillars": Social Interaction, and Exploration. Make sure you're using those.
Everyone seems focused on how to bypass the Party's combat strengths with different kinds of combat strengths. Bypass the combat strength issue entirely - some of the time, not all ( still give them some combat encounters where they very well might kick-ass all the time ) - by putting them in positions where combat just isn't the answer.
A high AC doesn't matter if you're trying to convince the King to not send troops to the border and make the already tense political situation worse. They concentrated solely on combat abilities and no one has proficiency in Persuasion? Well ... that's not your fault, is it?
They have plate armor and bracers of defense? Cool - but today we're exploring the jungle of Chult looking for the lost McGuffin of Irrelevance - sure you want to keep that armor on in this heat? Yes? OK ... give me a Con check to not suffer a level of exhaustion ...
Even in combat, you can put them in environments where their equipments is less effective. For example, underwater seems like it would be an unfriendly place for any Character who wanted to keep their Plate Armor on.
If they're hyper-focused on being kick-ass at combat, making your encounters challenging isn't a problem ( in fact it is easier ) - just give them other types of encounters.
This doesn't really address his/her issue.
These things should be in the game anyway. If the players are breezing through the combat encounters the game will feel boring very quickly as they'll never feel threatened.
I see absolutely zero mention in the OP that they've considered anything other than combat situations. None. Also - just because you think something "should be in the game anyways", doesn't mean it is. You've never seen a game where it's been just one combat slog after another? I have - and I've seen that because neither the DM nor the Players really thought of incorporating the other pillars to any meaningful extent.
Be careful about the assumptions you make. The title of the thread is Need challenging encounters for seasoned players not Need challenging combat for seasoned players. Given that, I'm not assuming the OP is referring only to combat ( or, if they are, they need to be more specific in their questions ).
In any case, I would refer you to the facets of my post where I point out that a) Environments can still provide a challenge, or nullify their current advantages, and b) it's OK sometimes to let the Party shine at one facet of the game, since it's not typically supposed to be a DM-vs-Player setup in combat, and they can be challenged elsewhere - so maybe them being "untouchable" isn't a problem to be solved, it's just a facet of this campaign. for now.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
use intelligent creatures that will adapt their tactics once they realize they can't hit the high AC pc.
They could avoid the pc and target the other pcs instead
as others have stated use a variety of other spells
try and grapple the pc first
design combat encounters that can't be won by just doing damage, frame the combat encounter around a puzzle to stop endless waves of critters or possibly a certain condition needs to be met in order to effectively damage the creature. Think back to some old school final fantasy bosses for inspiration. Create a creature whose defenses/attributes change based on the tactics the party employs. Have its AC rise for 1 rnd based on how many times its been hit or in your case its attack bonus increases by 1 for each miss until it hits.
I see it as a challenge to flex the DM muscles and homebrew stuff.
Rust Monsters are able to degrade armor. Why not have enemies coating their blades with such a material. Gradually reducing the AC your PC's have. Then turning it into a quest to fix their armor etc.
As others said. AC is just 1, overrated, defense stat. Just use charm, dominate person etc. Then watch those powerfull PC's wreck their friends. Throw Intellect Devourers, Shadows, many swarms of Rot Grubs etc in with other enemies to threaten PC's.
Delve through older Edition books. Look up enemies that are heavy with illusions. Trapping the PC's in some woods that they can't get out of. Attacking them with enemies that attack the mind through Wisdom/Char instead of AC.
Throw higher CR enemies at the party. Those monsters have higher AC and higher chance to hit as well. Also increase the amount of times you can roll with advantage against the PC's. Have creatures use the HELP/FLANK options, Faery Fire etc while also giving them multi-attacks. More attacks, more rolls, more chances to hit even if your PC's have high AC.
So, long story short I had a tpk a little while ago, and when my player built new characters i allowed them to have a few magic item’s that varied from very rare to uncommon. Needless to say several of the players now have extremely high AC (all legal builds), now my issue is finding encounters that they don’t just walk through. Already one of the players believes that they are untouchable, and no DM likes that song and dance. Any suggestions that don’t involve nerfing their items?
The answer to this seems too obvious, and so I think we must be missing some details.
I mean, chuck in a creature with +19 to hit and three attacks and AC doesn't matter so much. The highest base armour (pre magic) AC you can get is 21 with PhB rules. Magic based attacks, Intellect Devourers (stupid broken creatures, but they're an option), breath weapon attacks etc will all give them something to think about. The more individual attacks creatures are throwing, the better the chance you have of rolling a 20 and ignoring their AC whatever it is too. But you have to be careful so that having a good AC doesn't feel pointless. I play a tank built Eldritch Knight, so generally count as AC 26.
If the problem is purely AC then there are plenty of spells that don't care about AC at all - Fireball, Magic Missile, Meteor Swarm...
If you've allowed a bunch of magic items that aren't in line with their level (e.g. these are level 3 players) then I'd say you've made a mistake and need to rectify it. You can't really just nerf them, but where did these items come from? If their origins are unclear (or maybe if they are) then how about giving ALL of the items that they carry a horrible curse. They start to ooze oily, black slime and each item has a problematic side effect that grows stronger over time. For instance, a helmet might make the player's teeth start falling out. A sword might cause them to wake up naked in the street, holding only the sword and about to attack (or attacking) a villager. A wand might began fizzing and sparking with a 10% chance to explode each time it's used.
very easy is 5e they may have an absurdly high AC but what are their saves like? Use spells like heat metal or traps ala glyph of warding. Are they sleeping in their armor hit them with exhaustion.
Without knowing details of the characters, specific encounters are tough to design, but the usual solutions are increasing the encounter budget, using attack that don't go vs AC, and using attacks that cause damage even on a successful save.
I would use spell casting enemies. One big powerful one with some minions. Make them make saves rather then trying to hit AC
It's worth mentioning in this thread that whatever the power level of the characters and their AC, you need to ensure that you don't make them feel like all that armour they're wearing is useless. Players take pride in their characters, especially if they feel like they have an attribute that the rest of the party doesn't have. There should be occasions where Fireball is super useful, occasions where Thieves Cant is useful, and fights where high AC is powerful. You might even want to make a list of "Strong and Weak" for fights to allow players to shine as individuals in specific fights. Try to design fights so that one or two of the following are super helpful, and one or two are weak. This will let your players occasionally feel like they were the individual hero in the battle, while preventing them being the hero every time.
Two examples:
A)
Strong - Area effect damage, non-combat ability - musical instrument performance
Weak - Charm and possession, single target damage
The players are trying to approach a Stone Golem across a room full of venomous snakes. The golem will not wake up as long as a song is being played. There are 40 snakes, and they lie around the cavern.
B)
Strong - Charm and possession, single target damage, High AC
Weak - Strong - Area effect damage, Altering terrain, Stealth
The PCs fight against a single Fighter NPC who is many levels higher than they are whilst they try to crack his safe in a town house. They don't want to kill him because he's not evil, so are looking to knock him out or just tank the damage, and don't want to blow up his house.
First, your comment "no DM likes that song and dance". Why not? This is not you vs. the Players. Personally, I want my Players to win - I just want them to feel like it was a hard fought and worthwhile victory. However - if you are looking merely to keep your Players challenged, that's another story.
On to your issue....
Don't rely solely on combat situations. The game has two other ( official ) "pillars": Social Interaction, and Exploration. Make sure you're using those.
Everyone seems focused on how to bypass the Party's combat strengths with different kinds of combat strengths. Bypass the combat strength issue entirely - some of the time, not all ( still give them some combat encounters where they very well might kick-ass all the time ) - by putting them in positions where combat just isn't the answer.
A high AC doesn't matter if you're trying to convince the King to not send troops to the border and make the already tense political situation worse. They concentrated solely on combat abilities and no one has proficiency in Persuasion? Well ... that's not your fault, is it?
They have plate armor and bracers of defense? Cool - but today we're exploring the jungle of Chult looking for the lost McGuffin of Irrelevance - sure you want to keep that armor on in this heat? Yes? OK ... give me a Con check to not suffer a level of exhaustion ...
Even in combat, you can put them in environments where their equipments is less effective. For example, underwater seems like it would be an unfriendly place for any Character who wanted to keep their Plate Armor on.
If they're hyper-focused on being kick-ass at combat, making your encounters challenging isn't a problem ( in fact it is easier ) - just give them other types of encounters.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
This doesn't really address his/her issue.
These things should be in the game anyway. If the players are breezing through the combat encounters the game will feel boring very quickly as they'll never feel threatened.
Are you sure about that?
I see absolutely zero mention in the OP that they've considered anything other than combat situations. None. Also - just because you think something "should be in the game anyways", doesn't mean it is. You've never seen a game where it's been just one combat slog after another? I have - and I've seen that because neither the DM nor the Players really thought of incorporating the other pillars to any meaningful extent.
Be careful about the assumptions you make. The title of the thread is Need challenging encounters for seasoned players not Need challenging combat for seasoned players. Given that, I'm not assuming the OP is referring only to combat ( or, if they are, they need to be more specific in their questions ).
In any case, I would refer you to the facets of my post where I point out that a) Environments can still provide a challenge, or nullify their current advantages, and b) it's OK sometimes to let the Party shine at one facet of the game, since it's not typically supposed to be a DM-vs-Player setup in combat, and they can be challenged elsewhere - so maybe them being "untouchable" isn't a problem to be solved, it's just a facet of this campaign. for now.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Give them an escort quest. *evil grin*
For extra evilness, make the escort weak, stupid, and curious (see Lalia in LOTRO).
use intelligent creatures that will adapt their tactics once they realize they can't hit the high AC pc.
They could avoid the pc and target the other pcs instead
as others have stated use a variety of other spells
try and grapple the pc first
design combat encounters that can't be won by just doing damage, frame the combat encounter around a puzzle to stop endless waves of critters or possibly a certain condition needs to be met in order to effectively damage the creature. Think back to some old school final fantasy bosses for inspiration. Create a creature whose defenses/attributes change based on the tactics the party employs. Have its AC rise for 1 rnd based on how many times its been hit or in your case its attack bonus increases by 1 for each miss until it hits.
I see it as a challenge to flex the DM muscles and homebrew stuff.
Rust Monsters are able to degrade armor. Why not have enemies coating their blades with such a material. Gradually reducing the AC your PC's have.
Then turning it into a quest to fix their armor etc.
As others said. AC is just 1, overrated, defense stat. Just use charm, dominate person etc. Then watch those powerfull PC's wreck their friends.
Throw Intellect Devourers, Shadows, many swarms of Rot Grubs etc in with other enemies to threaten PC's.
Delve through older Edition books. Look up enemies that are heavy with illusions. Trapping the PC's in some woods that they can't get out of. Attacking them with enemies that attack the mind through Wisdom/Char instead of AC.
Throw higher CR enemies at the party. Those monsters have higher AC and higher chance to hit as well. Also increase the amount of times you can roll with advantage against the PC's. Have creatures use the HELP/FLANK options, Faery Fire etc while also giving them multi-attacks. More attacks, more rolls, more chances to hit even if your PC's have high AC.