When calculating a monster's challenge rating, there is a multiplier sometimes given to a monster with a high number of resistances or immunities. This multiplier determines the monster's effective HP. Various traits, like Regeneration and Legendary Resistance, also increase effective HP by a set amount. Is that increase affected by the multiplier? I could see it being argued a number of ways:
1) No, the order of operations has addition come after multiplication. Besides, the effective HP provided by Regeneration and Legendary Resistance comes well after the text about the immunity multiplier, so you're supposed to add it afterward anyway.
2) Yes. Regeneration provides actual hit points, which are actually affected by the multiplier. And Legendary Resistance can be used to lower incoming damage, so the multiplier still matters.
3) Sometimes. Regeneration may provide actual hit points and therefore be affected by immunities, but Legendary Resistance does not. Those are for dealing with the spellcasters' spells, the nastiest of which don't inflict damage at all and are unaffected by immunities.
I might suggest looking to the order of listed abilities on already established statblocks and mimic that template as a guide to determine how the abilities should be worked in order by how they are listed on the statblock.
Barring that, whichever method provides you with the highest CR might be the safest method, as far as party survivability goes. It's better to rate monsters as tougher than they are, IMO. Underrated monsters could be unintentionally lethal in the right scenario.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
Barring that, whichever method provides you with the highest CR might be the safest method, as far as party survivability goes. It's better to rate monsters as tougher than they are, IMO. Underrated monsters could be unintentionally lethal in the right scenario.
It's almost always underrated offensive traits that cause balance problems.
I might suggest looking to the order of listed abilities on already established statblocks and mimic that template as a guide to determine how the abilities should be worked in order by how they are listed on the statblock.
Barring that, whichever method provides you with the highest CR might be the safest method, as far as party survivability goes. It's better to rate monsters as tougher than they are, IMO. Underrated monsters could be unintentionally lethal in the right scenario.
I don't know of any monsters that I could use as a template. To qualify, a monster would have to have both Legendary Resistance and three damage immunities that deserve the multiplier. Most monsters that meet both of those criteria have a challenge rating so high that the multiplier ends up being quite small. The 90 effective hit points from Legendary Resistance multiplied by 1.25 is 112.5. There's virtually no difference.
Personally, I think I'll go with option 2. I've run the Tarrasque before (not to suggest that the Tarrasque has a correct CR), and the Tarrasque eventually had to use a Legendary Resistance just to avoid a sacred flame, since its hit points were very low. And it is erring on the side of "difficult" to assume that the 90 effective hit points are multiplied.
Perhaps a better example might be Possession? Monsters with this feature double their effective hit points. But a monster with this action would not retain their immunities while possessing someone. Alas, I can't find a monster with both Possession and ample immunities.
Barring that, whichever method provides you with the highest CR might be the safest method, as far as party survivability goes. It's better to rate monsters as tougher than they are, IMO. Underrated monsters could be unintentionally lethal in the right scenario.
It's almost always underrated offensive traits that cause balance problems.
And yet here we are having a conversation about balancing defensive traits. I would point out that a monster that can withstand the party's full compliment of abilities and still remain a threat might be capable of knocking off a PC or two. Especially since achieving the desired CR is contingent upon the average of defensive and offensive capabilities. One will eventually affect the other.
@ OP, looking for inspiration from other statblocks isn't supposed to be the one-size-fits-all solution to every dilema that we might face when looking to customize a creature. If you were to find two, maybe three, statblocks that you would need to smash together to achieve your narrative vision, those base statblocks (and the traits listed on it) are already given a CR. You may not find a need to re-engineer the entire creature. Resistances and immunities might only apply to your equation if they are applicable to the party that is fighting it. Same with regeneration, if your party has the knowledge and the means, the regeneration trait *might* have a way to be shut down, (eg. Fire/Acid damage v. Troll Regen) that would effectively bypass that trait making it ineffective.
In your example, Possession, the possessor has total cover via being housed inside the possessee. Nothing can target or damage it directly. It's immunities will not be required while the possessee's HPs are still above 0. A Ghost has both Possession, three Damage Immunities, pile of Condition Immunities and corresponding pile of Resistances. The Aspect of Tiamat has immunities, a one-use regen feature, all you might need to do is add the one or two traits you're looking for. YMMV.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
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When calculating a monster's challenge rating, there is a multiplier sometimes given to a monster with a high number of resistances or immunities. This multiplier determines the monster's effective HP. Various traits, like Regeneration and Legendary Resistance, also increase effective HP by a set amount. Is that increase affected by the multiplier? I could see it being argued a number of ways:
1) No, the order of operations has addition come after multiplication. Besides, the effective HP provided by Regeneration and Legendary Resistance comes well after the text about the immunity multiplier, so you're supposed to add it afterward anyway.
2) Yes. Regeneration provides actual hit points, which are actually affected by the multiplier. And Legendary Resistance can be used to lower incoming damage, so the multiplier still matters.
3) Sometimes. Regeneration may provide actual hit points and therefore be affected by immunities, but Legendary Resistance does not. Those are for dealing with the spellcasters' spells, the nastiest of which don't inflict damage at all and are unaffected by immunities.
I might suggest looking to the order of listed abilities on already established statblocks and mimic that template as a guide to determine how the abilities should be worked in order by how they are listed on the statblock.
Barring that, whichever method provides you with the highest CR might be the safest method, as far as party survivability goes. It's better to rate monsters as tougher than they are, IMO. Underrated monsters could be unintentionally lethal in the right scenario.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I would say yes for things that provide actual hit points, but not things that count as non-hp adjustments.
It's almost always underrated offensive traits that cause balance problems.
I don't know of any monsters that I could use as a template. To qualify, a monster would have to have both Legendary Resistance and three damage immunities that deserve the multiplier. Most monsters that meet both of those criteria have a challenge rating so high that the multiplier ends up being quite small. The 90 effective hit points from Legendary Resistance multiplied by 1.25 is 112.5. There's virtually no difference.
Personally, I think I'll go with option 2. I've run the Tarrasque before (not to suggest that the Tarrasque has a correct CR), and the Tarrasque eventually had to use a Legendary Resistance just to avoid a sacred flame, since its hit points were very low. And it is erring on the side of "difficult" to assume that the 90 effective hit points are multiplied.
Perhaps a better example might be Possession? Monsters with this feature double their effective hit points. But a monster with this action would not retain their immunities while possessing someone. Alas, I can't find a monster with both Possession and ample immunities.
And yet here we are having a conversation about balancing defensive traits. I would point out that a monster that can withstand the party's full compliment of abilities and still remain a threat might be capable of knocking off a PC or two. Especially since achieving the desired CR is contingent upon the average of defensive and offensive capabilities. One will eventually affect the other.
@ OP, looking for inspiration from other statblocks isn't supposed to be the one-size-fits-all solution to every dilema that we might face when looking to customize a creature. If you were to find two, maybe three, statblocks that you would need to smash together to achieve your narrative vision, those base statblocks (and the traits listed on it) are already given a CR. You may not find a need to re-engineer the entire creature. Resistances and immunities might only apply to your equation if they are applicable to the party that is fighting it. Same with regeneration, if your party has the knowledge and the means, the regeneration trait *might* have a way to be shut down, (eg. Fire/Acid damage v. Troll Regen) that would effectively bypass that trait making it ineffective.
In your example, Possession, the possessor has total cover via being housed inside the possessee. Nothing can target or damage it directly. It's immunities will not be required while the possessee's HPs are still above 0. A Ghost has both Possession, three Damage Immunities, pile of Condition Immunities and corresponding pile of Resistances. The Aspect of Tiamat has immunities, a one-use regen feature, all you might need to do is add the one or two traits you're looking for. YMMV.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad