I'm interested in your takes of levelling mid-dungeon or mid-encounter and what RAW says about spells and how you've interpreted that as RAI.
This is where I''m at:
"You can also change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest." You need to change your list to add to your list. You need to have finished a long rest to change your list.
If you had spellcasting in the morning, like a 1st level cleric... then you'd get the extra spell slots... but you'd not get access to the extra known spells because that morning, after your long rest, your prepared what you knew for the day. You cannot change what you prepared sometime that afternoon. You have to wait until you complete a long rest.
If you didn't have spellcasting in the morning, like a 1st level ranger hitting level 2 now, then changing 0 spells known to 2 spells known requires the same long rest followed my meditation.
Now of course, the stickler might say: "A long rest is always completed. When has a long rest not been completed.... sometime prior to this moment, your character has had a long rest." I take the inclusion of the long rest to mean "fresh" and "newly awoken" which means the long rest has "just" been completed.
- -
This is of course important for the players... who just before a new encounter is about to kick off, have levelled. Due to outside circumstances... they cannot take a rest (long or short) as there is a time limit. One of my players feels that he could meditate any time before the next long rest to add those new spells to his repertoire, effectively splitting up his preparation (or in the case of a 1st level ranger hitting 2nd)... having his first meditative moment in the day as he's just got spells.
Are there any RAW that my interpretation is breaking. What would you do?
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Rule for drama. Roll for memories. If there isn't a meaningful failure condition, do not roll. Ever. (Perception checks, I'm .... clunk, roll, roll, roll, stop... 14, looking at you... maybe?)
In my campaign, I require that leveling must be RPed, and particularly if any new abilities are to be gained. So I do not allow leveling mid-dungeon. You have to go back to town, or camp, or somewhere, that it can be reasonable your character would be able to take the knowledge gained from adventuring and digest it.
So for example, our party just hit level 2. The Ranger now can cast spells. But she didn't just suddenly become able to do this. We RPed it. She had seen the cleric do Cure Wounds, and though she might have figured out how to do it, so he took her out of the town to a quiet place to train. On the way they found an injured squirrel (she is a Forest Gnome and likes squirrels). The cleric used this as a "teachable moment" and showed her how to channel her faith into healing. She learned how to cast spells and got a pet squirrel into the bargain.
Meanwhile, the cleric, at level 2, now can turn undead. But he can't just suddenly do it. Luckily (and I did not plan this) the campaign opened with a zombie attack during which the cleric watched the high priest from the town's temple, and the adepts, turning undead. So after they got back to town, the cleric went to the high priest and said, "Can you teach me that." And we RPed a lesson about how to channel Apollo's power from the sun into the holy symbol, etc. The cleric now knows how to 'channel divinity' generally, and turn undead specifically.
The sorcerer got a new spell and spell slot and some sorcery points. But his character doesn't really "study" to do magic -- it just happens to him. So the RP on that can be more like he blunders into the new ability. But again, only after a long rest in a quiet place.
The party technically attained enough XP to hit level 2 after killing a necromancer at a cemetery 4 hours' walk from town. But they did not actually become level 2 until the next morning when they had rested and trained.
That's not RAW... but it is how I do it. To me, just suddenly gaining new abilities and hit points in the middle of a dungeon is illogical from an in-character perspective. "I killed 2 orcs... now I can cast Identify!" Um, what?
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
My play style is more continuity and logic, than "DING! You suddenly know the things without the barest pretence of explanation because you've killed 20 bags of rats!" But at the same time it is a game with binary mechanical features that just switch on at new levels. It's still useful to exposit narratively as to all of the activities that the character has been taking during the liminal moments which has manifested in the acquisition of said new knowledge, as this helps with the continuity you are referencing.
Why a cleric would get their Turn Undead ability but not get new prepared spell immediately seems to be in the wording I'm referencing. It's the inclusion of the "long rest" which suggest to me that it's more than playstyle - it's actually mechanically RAW. Of course, any and every RAW is RAI in your own game - play with what makes sense for your world, genre, etc! So, if you wanted to have them go DING!... update their prepared spells with the new ones they just got, ignoring the prerequisite of the long rest, or allow them to append what they had prepared with what they can now prepare mid-afternoon, you could certainly do that, but I'd argue it is not RAW. (Very interesting to hear you reference Mearls saying they chose to stay away from ruling on this, cos I can see a rule... ;) ).
I'm not trying to be simulationist either. Abilities and features are represented in an abstract binary state of unknowing then knowing because it is a game system and I'm totally fine with that. Hit points are especially abstract, getting more because you levelled is weird... but fine, it's part of the fabric of D&D and I would never change the way they are earned.
I'm just fixated on the "long rest" requirement. Seems important, but thought to ask as I didn't want to short change my players, and also was curious what the prevailing RAI consensus is amongst my fellow DMs.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Rule for drama. Roll for memories. If there isn't a meaningful failure condition, do not roll. Ever. (Perception checks, I'm .... clunk, roll, roll, roll, stop... 14, looking at you... maybe?)
Well, my interpretations are always biased from having played Basic, Expert, and AD&D a certain way. I no longer have the original books and have not bothered to buy any but Deities and Demigods (because it is an awesome resource for omniverse-building), so I don't know whether it was in the rules or just our house rule at the table, but when we played AD&D, leveling up took some amount of time. It could not be done instantly. In some cases you were required to seek out training from someone of a higher level and not just spend time. Some classes had restrictions on how many of a given level you could have, like Monk. So if you got to 10th level and only 3 Monks could be 10th level and there were already 3, you stayed at 9th level until you defeated one in single combat, and then you took the level 10 "title" from him and got to level up.
So for us, gaining experience allowed you to level, but it did not cause you to do so. Training, meditation, RP, duels, and/or other things may have been required besides XP for you to gain that level.
For example, our level 2 ranger, at level 3, is probably going to go Beastmaster. I have a whole RP session worked out for her, which we will probably do one-on-one so as not to bore the other players to tears. She will be "level 3" but not yet a Beastmaster until after that session. And no pet until after either.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Yeah I remember those good ol' days of seeking out mentorship, spending gold for training, and even challenging the higher levels - made all the more happenstance as different classes had different XP requirements to level. It was a lovely mess at times. Chuckle. More recently, I have mostly preferred milestone XP so that my players won't level mid dungeon... and will level as party collectively, but I'm putting them through ToA and it occurred to me that it may be beneficial for them to level via XP.
And so a party of a cleric, paladin, ranger, warlock, barbarian and rogue have all hit level 2 mid-dungeon with a ghoul in their sights. Next session will start immediately in combat.
The big question in this moment for my group is how do the spellcasters get their spells.
1) DING! They all just inherently know new stuff! They all get whatever spells they could've prepared for along with their spell slots. The fact that they know there's a ghoul up ahead totally plays into their prescient hero knowledge of being lucky they levelled right then and can choose spells that actively help them. This is egalitarian and fair across the board because everybody gets their stuff.
2) It's complicated. The cleric and paladin get their spell slots, the latter to no effect because no prepared spells, but don't get additional prepared spells because that moment was earlier today when they were first level and you cannot prepare twice in one day. The warlock gets all their abilities as they are inherent to them and a gift from their patron. The Ranger... could go either way... they are said to cast like a druid that must prepare, but the ranger can only change one spell when they level, so the idea or preparing after a long rest like a druid or cleric for their entire level feels odd. So in this way they could be like the warlock... they just get their "spells" (read magical abilities) because they're never prepare their spells like a druid... ever. Yet, if one decides to follow the Druid connection, then they must prepare at least once before getting those spells for the rest of the level, which means that the Ranger does not get their new spells like the paladin and cleric until they have rested. This isn't concerned with fairness, just with the principle of how spells are prepared.
3) It's easy. The DM says "No" to everything until that mythical restorative and instructional long rest. In which case, i might as well have not given them XP to level mid dungeon. Doh!
Rule for drama. Roll for memories. If there isn't a meaningful failure condition, do not roll. Ever. (Perception checks, I'm .... clunk, roll, roll, roll, stop... 14, looking at you... maybe?)
The levelling has been occurring between session... as per normal... so no disruption to the game itself. Discord for strategies etc. They're mostly all new to D&D and RPGs, so they're fr more likely to share patterns for their tartan cloak than agonise together about a fighting style. And I'll reiterate that I'm very much in the camp of milestone xp... and so am now running into timing issues of when a character actually gets the thing... when every minute is critical... due to jumping in with both feet and levelling them just prior the completion of the introductory adventure. It may be a lesson to "not" do that and revert to my good old tried and tested ways, I was just concerned that it would somehow do them a disservice in an open hex crawl type sandbox. ;)
Thanks for the thoughts though. Good to read other points of view.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Rule for drama. Roll for memories. If there isn't a meaningful failure condition, do not roll. Ever. (Perception checks, I'm .... clunk, roll, roll, roll, stop... 14, looking at you... maybe?)
I am doing milestone XP but I am doing actual milestone XP, not story based leveling. That is, there are milestones and when they achieve them, they get XP. Such as, "You have reached the cave entrance. This is a minor milestone. Everyone gets 50 XP."
I sometimes award this as they go but most often, at the end of the session, I will say, "You did this, this, and this, for this much XP, add it to your sheet."
But one could easily just not award the actual XP until arriving at town or taking a long rest. This would alleviate the problem of what to do about going ding mid-battle.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I’d say they don’t get the spells until after the long rest. RAW, things like spell slots refresh at the end of a long rest. I’d rule that would include any new slots they acquired over the course of the day. Ditto the hit points they’d add, and any other abilities that refresh after a long rest. Things that refresh on a short rest would be more of a grey area, but I’d keep them off the table too, just to keep it a simple all or nothing. That said, if they’re new to D&D and RPGs as you said, you might want to let them have it this once. Usually, my group of experienced players levels between sessions so people can have time to make their choices, but for new players, it might be better in person. Leveling up is one of the coolest things you do as a player. And going from 1 to 2, this will be their first time doing it. So it will be super fun and exciting for them, and you can be there to help guide them through the process, and they can brag to each other about the shiny new toys they got. Just explain this is the one time you’re doing it like this and from now on, the process will be whatever you decide it’s going to be.
Leveling is a stepped process which happens to represent (in my opinion) a continuous learning curve. The game represents a level up awarding a series of new abilities or spells. I usually interpret this from a reality viewpoint as the character finally having become proficient or mastered abilities that they have been working towards over some time. However, that said, I won't have characters level up mid-exploration or mid-encounter. I will usually allow leveling up after a long rest. That probably stems from me starting with AD&D rather than video games so the instant leveling up has never made sense to me from a logic perspective.
RAW, a caster prepares spells after a long rest, so even if they happened to level up, learned new spells, gained hit points and other effects, they would not be able to prepare the new spells until after the long rest. To keep this fair to all players, I just require everyone to have a long rest before leveling up.
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I'm interested in your takes of levelling mid-dungeon or mid-encounter and what RAW says about spells and how you've interpreted that as RAI.
This is where I''m at:
"You can also change your list of prepared spells when you finish a long rest."
You need to change your list to add to your list.
You need to have finished a long rest to change your list.
If you had spellcasting in the morning, like a 1st level cleric... then you'd get the extra spell slots... but you'd not get access to the extra known spells because that morning, after your long rest, your prepared what you knew for the day. You cannot change what you prepared sometime that afternoon. You have to wait until you complete a long rest.
If you didn't have spellcasting in the morning, like a 1st level ranger hitting level 2 now, then changing 0 spells known to 2 spells known requires the same long rest followed my meditation.
Now of course, the stickler might say: "A long rest is always completed. When has a long rest not been completed.... sometime prior to this moment, your character has had a long rest." I take the inclusion of the long rest to mean "fresh" and "newly awoken" which means the long rest has "just" been completed.
- -
This is of course important for the players... who just before a new encounter is about to kick off, have levelled. Due to outside circumstances... they cannot take a rest (long or short) as there is a time limit. One of my players feels that he could meditate any time before the next long rest to add those new spells to his repertoire, effectively splitting up his preparation (or in the case of a 1st level ranger hitting 2nd)... having his first meditative moment in the day as he's just got spells.
Are there any RAW that my interpretation is breaking. What would you do?
Rule for drama. Roll for memories.
If there isn't a meaningful failure condition, do not roll. Ever. (Perception checks, I'm .... clunk, roll, roll, roll, stop... 14, looking at you... maybe?)
In my campaign, I require that leveling must be RPed, and particularly if any new abilities are to be gained. So I do not allow leveling mid-dungeon. You have to go back to town, or camp, or somewhere, that it can be reasonable your character would be able to take the knowledge gained from adventuring and digest it.
So for example, our party just hit level 2. The Ranger now can cast spells. But she didn't just suddenly become able to do this. We RPed it. She had seen the cleric do Cure Wounds, and though she might have figured out how to do it, so he took her out of the town to a quiet place to train. On the way they found an injured squirrel (she is a Forest Gnome and likes squirrels). The cleric used this as a "teachable moment" and showed her how to channel her faith into healing. She learned how to cast spells and got a pet squirrel into the bargain.
Meanwhile, the cleric, at level 2, now can turn undead. But he can't just suddenly do it. Luckily (and I did not plan this) the campaign opened with a zombie attack during which the cleric watched the high priest from the town's temple, and the adepts, turning undead. So after they got back to town, the cleric went to the high priest and said, "Can you teach me that." And we RPed a lesson about how to channel Apollo's power from the sun into the holy symbol, etc. The cleric now knows how to 'channel divinity' generally, and turn undead specifically.
The sorcerer got a new spell and spell slot and some sorcery points. But his character doesn't really "study" to do magic -- it just happens to him. So the RP on that can be more like he blunders into the new ability. But again, only after a long rest in a quiet place.
The party technically attained enough XP to hit level 2 after killing a necromancer at a cemetery 4 hours' walk from town. But they did not actually become level 2 until the next morning when they had rested and trained.
That's not RAW... but it is how I do it. To me, just suddenly gaining new abilities and hit points in the middle of a dungeon is illogical from an in-character perspective. "I killed 2 orcs... now I can cast Identify!" Um, what?
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Cool. Thanks for your input.
My play style is more continuity and logic, than "DING! You suddenly know the things without the barest pretence of explanation because you've killed 20 bags of rats!" But at the same time it is a game with binary mechanical features that just switch on at new levels. It's still useful to exposit narratively as to all of the activities that the character has been taking during the liminal moments which has manifested in the acquisition of said new knowledge, as this helps with the continuity you are referencing.
Why a cleric would get their Turn Undead ability but not get new prepared spell immediately seems to be in the wording I'm referencing. It's the inclusion of the "long rest" which suggest to me that it's more than playstyle - it's actually mechanically RAW. Of course, any and every RAW is RAI in your own game - play with what makes sense for your world, genre, etc! So, if you wanted to have them go DING!... update their prepared spells with the new ones they just got, ignoring the prerequisite of the long rest, or allow them to append what they had prepared with what they can now prepare mid-afternoon, you could certainly do that, but I'd argue it is not RAW. (Very interesting to hear you reference Mearls saying they chose to stay away from ruling on this, cos I can see a rule... ;) ).
I'm not trying to be simulationist either. Abilities and features are represented in an abstract binary state of unknowing then knowing because it is a game system and I'm totally fine with that. Hit points are especially abstract, getting more because you levelled is weird... but fine, it's part of the fabric of D&D and I would never change the way they are earned.
I'm just fixated on the "long rest" requirement. Seems important, but thought to ask as I didn't want to short change my players, and also was curious what the prevailing RAI consensus is amongst my fellow DMs.
Rule for drama. Roll for memories.
If there isn't a meaningful failure condition, do not roll. Ever. (Perception checks, I'm .... clunk, roll, roll, roll, stop... 14, looking at you... maybe?)
Well, my interpretations are always biased from having played Basic, Expert, and AD&D a certain way. I no longer have the original books and have not bothered to buy any but Deities and Demigods (because it is an awesome resource for omniverse-building), so I don't know whether it was in the rules or just our house rule at the table, but when we played AD&D, leveling up took some amount of time. It could not be done instantly. In some cases you were required to seek out training from someone of a higher level and not just spend time. Some classes had restrictions on how many of a given level you could have, like Monk. So if you got to 10th level and only 3 Monks could be 10th level and there were already 3, you stayed at 9th level until you defeated one in single combat, and then you took the level 10 "title" from him and got to level up.
So for us, gaining experience allowed you to level, but it did not cause you to do so. Training, meditation, RP, duels, and/or other things may have been required besides XP for you to gain that level.
For example, our level 2 ranger, at level 3, is probably going to go Beastmaster. I have a whole RP session worked out for her, which we will probably do one-on-one so as not to bore the other players to tears. She will be "level 3" but not yet a Beastmaster until after that session. And no pet until after either.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Yeah I remember those good ol' days of seeking out mentorship, spending gold for training, and even challenging the higher levels - made all the more happenstance as different classes had different XP requirements to level. It was a lovely mess at times. Chuckle. More recently, I have mostly preferred milestone XP so that my players won't level mid dungeon... and will level as party collectively, but I'm putting them through ToA and it occurred to me that it may be beneficial for them to level via XP.
And so a party of a cleric, paladin, ranger, warlock, barbarian and rogue have all hit level 2 mid-dungeon with a ghoul in their sights. Next session will start immediately in combat.
The big question in this moment for my group is how do the spellcasters get their spells.
1) DING! They all just inherently know new stuff! They all get whatever spells they could've prepared for along with their spell slots. The fact that they know there's a ghoul up ahead totally plays into their prescient hero knowledge of being lucky they levelled right then and can choose spells that actively help them. This is egalitarian and fair across the board because everybody gets their stuff.
2) It's complicated. The cleric and paladin get their spell slots, the latter to no effect because no prepared spells, but don't get additional prepared spells because that moment was earlier today when they were first level and you cannot prepare twice in one day. The warlock gets all their abilities as they are inherent to them and a gift from their patron. The Ranger... could go either way... they are said to cast like a druid that must prepare, but the ranger can only change one spell when they level, so the idea or preparing after a long rest like a druid or cleric for their entire level feels odd. So in this way they could be like the warlock... they just get their "spells" (read magical abilities) because they're never prepare their spells like a druid... ever. Yet, if one decides to follow the Druid connection, then they must prepare at least once before getting those spells for the rest of the level, which means that the Ranger does not get their new spells like the paladin and cleric until they have rested. This isn't concerned with fairness, just with the principle of how spells are prepared.
3) It's easy. The DM says "No" to everything until that mythical restorative and instructional long rest. In which case, i might as well have not given them XP to level mid dungeon. Doh!
Rule for drama. Roll for memories.
If there isn't a meaningful failure condition, do not roll. Ever. (Perception checks, I'm .... clunk, roll, roll, roll, stop... 14, looking at you... maybe?)
The levelling has been occurring between session... as per normal... so no disruption to the game itself. Discord for strategies etc. They're mostly all new to D&D and RPGs, so they're fr more likely to share patterns for their tartan cloak than agonise together about a fighting style. And I'll reiterate that I'm very much in the camp of milestone xp... and so am now running into timing issues of when a character actually gets the thing... when every minute is critical... due to jumping in with both feet and levelling them just prior the completion of the introductory adventure. It may be a lesson to "not" do that and revert to my good old tried and tested ways, I was just concerned that it would somehow do them a disservice in an open hex crawl type sandbox. ;)
Thanks for the thoughts though. Good to read other points of view.
Rule for drama. Roll for memories.
If there isn't a meaningful failure condition, do not roll. Ever. (Perception checks, I'm .... clunk, roll, roll, roll, stop... 14, looking at you... maybe?)
I am doing milestone XP but I am doing actual milestone XP, not story based leveling. That is, there are milestones and when they achieve them, they get XP. Such as, "You have reached the cave entrance. This is a minor milestone. Everyone gets 50 XP."
I sometimes award this as they go but most often, at the end of the session, I will say, "You did this, this, and this, for this much XP, add it to your sheet."
But one could easily just not award the actual XP until arriving at town or taking a long rest. This would alleviate the problem of what to do about going ding mid-battle.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I’d say they don’t get the spells until after the long rest. RAW, things like spell slots refresh at the end of a long rest. I’d rule that would include any new slots they acquired over the course of the day. Ditto the hit points they’d add, and any other abilities that refresh after a long rest. Things that refresh on a short rest would be more of a grey area, but I’d keep them off the table too, just to keep it a simple all or nothing.
That said, if they’re new to D&D and RPGs as you said, you might want to let them have it this once. Usually, my group of experienced players levels between sessions so people can have time to make their choices, but for new players, it might be better in person. Leveling up is one of the coolest things you do as a player. And going from 1 to 2, this will be their first time doing it. So it will be super fun and exciting for them, and you can be there to help guide them through the process, and they can brag to each other about the shiny new toys they got. Just explain this is the one time you’re doing it like this and from now on, the process will be whatever you decide it’s going to be.
Leveling is a stepped process which happens to represent (in my opinion) a continuous learning curve. The game represents a level up awarding a series of new abilities or spells. I usually interpret this from a reality viewpoint as the character finally having become proficient or mastered abilities that they have been working towards over some time. However, that said, I won't have characters level up mid-exploration or mid-encounter. I will usually allow leveling up after a long rest. That probably stems from me starting with AD&D rather than video games so the instant leveling up has never made sense to me from a logic perspective.
RAW, a caster prepares spells after a long rest, so even if they happened to level up, learned new spells, gained hit points and other effects, they would not be able to prepare the new spells until after the long rest. To keep this fair to all players, I just require everyone to have a long rest before leveling up.