Context: I have a player looking to use the poisoner's kit. He just reached level 3 and is looking to pick the assassin subclass. But I think thief actually works better
Argument: Applying poison to a weapon or thowing a vial of inhaled poison takes an action. Making an extra attack is usually better, unless it's a very strong poison. The thief can do it as a bonus action, so that's always better.
Objections 1: You might say: why doesn't your character poison his weapon in advance? Well, you see, it only stays on a weapon for 1 minute or until that weapon makes contact. Let's correct that and let it last longer? Well, now you have a quiver full of poisonous bolts, compared to the melee weapon good for only 1 hit. Melee would be much weaker than ranged then.
Objection 2: You might say: yeah, but the thief doesn't get a proficiency with poisoner's tool. Fair point, but the this criminal rogue has 2 proficiency in thieves' tools, and he forgot to pick another tool.
Bonus question:
What are your homebrewed rules for the Poisoner's kit?
I'm thinking of making the base poison for cheap, or letting him use the vial of acid on his weapon.
Ultimately the player should get to choose which subclass they want to play. In this case, my opinion is that the DM should find a way to let the player be able to do this poisioner assassin... Within reason and within the scope of the rules.
A poisoners kit should allow them to make their own poisons if proficient, so that's a great excuse to have some fun with coming up with new custom homebrew poisons that they find recipes for and can do different things: does different types of damage, last longer once applied, is waterproof, can only work if inhaled, etc.
If they aren't proficient, tell them they can gain prof by spending time and money with a mentor. They have to them go out of their ewy to find the mentor and train, giving a nice side quest opportunity that is very pc oriented.
I may not have phrased it properly. The player is asking for advice. I'm not telling him "no you can't, do this instead".
Rather, he asked: "If I want to use the poisoner's kit, how do I make it work". The truth is, RAW, the poisoner's kit doesn't really work. DC20 to harvest is too high, the cost is too much, crafting takes like 10-20 in game days for one poison.
I've made a little homebrew to solve most of it. Anyone else has tried this?
Poisons are pretty pointless in D&D. The mechanics of getting them without casting a poison based spell are really poor. High cost to buy, or DC20 to harvest in the wild has already been mentioned. But that's because the PC's are meant to be hero's and hero's don't use poison to kill. So I think that the whole mechanic around poison was badly designed for that reason. My advice is don't bother, you are more likely to hurt yourself than use them effectively. If you really want to use poison then you are better taking magic initiate and grabbing the primal savagery or the poison spray cantrip. There are also a huge number of foes that are resistant or outright immune to poison damage.
I made a Frankenstein homebrew, building upon an old post by a reddit user called Shuckeru. Props to him for 90% of th work you see below.
Here's how it works:
Craft slot : You have craft slots equal to your Proficiency modifier in the Poisoner's kit. A poison that you create occupies a number of craft slot (see below) until it is destroyed or used.
Recipe : To craft a poison, you must have the recipe in your poisoners journal. When you start as a poisoner, you know a number of poison recipes of your choice equal to your proficiency modifier. When your proficiency modifier goes up, you learn an additional recipe.
Finding recipe : If you find a recipe, you can copy it into your journal. To do so, you must first study a poison over a long rest to determine its qualities. Studying the poison like this destroys the initial poison, but allows you to fully understand how to craft it.
Crafting recipe : To craft a poison you have to pay the ingredient cost listed. Over a long rest make a check with your poisoner's kit (intelligence) against the listed DC of the poison you want to craft. If you fail the check, the ingredient cost is wasted, and that craft slot must remain empty until your next long rest.
Harvesting poison : You can also harvest poison from dead or Incapacitated creatures. Roll a Nature (int) + Poisoner’s kit Proficiency against a DC = 10 + the creature’s CR/2. If you fail by 5, you are subjected to the poison’s effects. Harvested poisons do not occupy craft slots.
Buying poison: Reputable vendors will not sell you poison as the transaction is illegal in most parts and frown upon everywhere. However, the right contact on the black market can find things, given enough time. Bought poisons do not occupy craft slots. (Priced as per the DMG.)
List of poisons
Name: Assasin's Blood (Ingested)
Ingredient cost: 50 gp
DC: 8
Craft slots required: 1
A creature subjected to this poison must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 1d12 poison damage and is Poisoned for 24 hours. On a successful save, the creature takes half damage and isn’t Poisoned.
At higher craft slots: Add 1d8 poison damage for every additional craft slot used to house this poison, or increase the DC by 2 for every additional craft slot used.
Name: Basic Poison (Injury)
Ingredient cost: 10 gp
DC: 5
Craft slots required: 1
A creature subjected to this poison takes 1d4 poison damage.
At higher craft slots: Add 1d4 poison damage for every additional 1 craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Burnt Othur Fumes (Inhaled)
Ingredient cost: 150 gp
DC: 14
Craft slots required: 3
A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or take 3d6 poison damage, and must repeat the saving throw at the start of each of its turns. On each successive failed save, the character takes 1d6 poison damage. After three successful saves, the poison ends.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison, or increase the initial damage dealt by 1d6.
Name: Crawler Mucus (Contact)
Ingredient cost: 60 gp
DC: 10
Craft slots required: 1
This poison must be harvested from a dead or Incapacitated crawler. A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or be Poisoned for 1 minute. The Poisoned creature is Paralyzed. The creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Drow Posion (Injury)
Ingredient cost: 60 gp
DC: 10
Craft slots required: 1
This poison is typically made only by the drow, and only in a place far removed from sunlight. A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or be Poisoned for 1 hour. If the saving throw fails by 5 or more, the creature is also Unconscious while Poisoned in this way. The creature wakes up if it takes damage or if another creature takes an action to shake it awake.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Essence of Ether (Inhaled)
Ingredient cost: 100 gp
DC: 12
Craft slots required: 2
A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or become Poisoned for 8 hours. The Poisoned creature is Unconscious. The creature wakes up if it takes damage or if another creature takes an action to shake it awake.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Malice (Inhaled)
Ingredient cost: 100 gp
DC: 12
Craft slots required: 2
A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or become Poisoned for 1 hour. The Poisoned creature is Blinded.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Midnight Tears (Ingested)
Ingredient cost: 500 gp
DC: 25
Craft slots required: 4
A creature that ingests this poison suffers no effect until the stroke of midnight. If the poison has not been neutralized before then, the creature must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw, taking 9d6 poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison, or increase the damage by 1d6.
Name: Oil of Taggit (Contact)
Ingredient cost: 125 gp
DC: 13
Craft slots required: 3
A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or become Poisoned for 24 hours. The Poisoned creature is Unconscious. The creature wakes up if it takes damage.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Pale Tincture (Ingested)
Ingredient cost: 80 gp
DC: 12
Craft slots required: 2
A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 16 Constitution saving throw or take 3 (1d6) poison damage and become Poisoned. The Poisoned creature must repeat the saving throw every 24 hours, taking 3 (1d6) poison damage on a failed save. Until this poison ends, the damage the poison deals can’t be healed by any means. After seven successful saving throws, the effect ends and the creature can heal normally.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Purple Worm Poison (Injury)
Ingredient cost: 600 gp
DC: 25
Craft slots required: 5
This poison must be harvested from a dead or Incapacitated Purple Worm. A creature subjected to this poison must make a DC 19 Constitution saving throw, taking 12d6 poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for every two addition craft slots used to house this poison, or increase damage by 2d12 for every additional craft slot used.
Name: Serpent Venom (Injury)
Ingredient cost: 60 gp
DC: 10
Craft slots required: 1
This poison must be harvested from a dead or Incapacitated Giant Poisonous Snake. A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 3d6 poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 2 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison, or increase the damage by 1d6 for each addition craft slot used.
Name: Spinner Venom (Injury)
Ingredient cost: 50 gp
DC: 10
Craft slots required: 1
This poison must be harvested from a dead or Incapacitated Giant Spider. A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 2d8 poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
If the target is reduced to zero hit points by this damage, the target is stable, but poisoned and paralyzed for 1 hour, even if they regain hit points.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 2 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison, or increase the damage by 1d8 for each addition craft slot used.
Name: Torpor (Injested)
Ingredient cost: 200 gp
DC: 16
Craft slots required: 3
A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or become Poisoned for 4d6 hours. The Poisoned creature is Incapacitated.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Truth Serum (Injested)
Ingredient cost: 60 gp
DC: 8
Craft slots required: 1
A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 12 Constitution saving throw or become Poisoned for 1 hour. The Poisoned creature can’t knowingly speak a lie, as if under the effect of a Zone of Truth spell.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Wyvern Poison (Injury)
Ingredient cost: 400
DC: 12
Craft slots required: 4
This poison must be harvested from a dead or Incapacitated Wyvern. A creature subjected to this poison must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw, taking 7d6 poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Context: I have a player looking to use the poisoner's kit. He just reached level 3 and is looking to pick the assassin subclass. But I think thief actually works better
Argument: Applying poison to a weapon or thowing a vial of inhaled poison takes an action. Making an extra attack is usually better, unless it's a very strong poison. The thief can do it as a bonus action, so that's always better.
Objections 1: You might say: why doesn't your character poison his weapon in advance? Well, you see, it only stays on a weapon for 1 minute or until that weapon makes contact. Let's correct that and let it last longer? Well, now you have a quiver full of poisonous bolts, compared to the melee weapon good for only 1 hit. Melee would be much weaker than ranged then.
Objection 2: You might say: yeah, but the thief doesn't get a proficiency with poisoner's tool. Fair point, but the this criminal rogue has 2 proficiency in thieves' tools, and he forgot to pick another tool.
Bonus question:
What are your homebrewed rules for the Poisoner's kit?
I'm thinking of making the base poison for cheap, or letting him use the vial of acid on his weapon.
Ultimately the player should get to choose which subclass they want to play. In this case, my opinion is that the DM should find a way to let the player be able to do this poisioner assassin... Within reason and within the scope of the rules.
A poisoners kit should allow them to make their own poisons if proficient, so that's a great excuse to have some fun with coming up with new custom homebrew poisons that they find recipes for and can do different things: does different types of damage, last longer once applied, is waterproof, can only work if inhaled, etc.
If they aren't proficient, tell them they can gain prof by spending time and money with a mentor. They have to them go out of their ewy to find the mentor and train, giving a nice side quest opportunity that is very pc oriented.
I may not have phrased it properly. The player is asking for advice. I'm not telling him "no you can't, do this instead".
Rather, he asked: "If I want to use the poisoner's kit, how do I make it work". The truth is, RAW, the poisoner's kit doesn't really work. DC20 to harvest is too high, the cost is too much, crafting takes like 10-20 in game days for one poison.
I've made a little homebrew to solve most of it. Anyone else has tried this?
Poisons are pretty pointless in D&D. The mechanics of getting them without casting a poison based spell are really poor. High cost to buy, or DC20 to harvest in the wild has already been mentioned. But that's because the PC's are meant to be hero's and hero's don't use poison to kill. So I think that the whole mechanic around poison was badly designed for that reason. My advice is don't bother, you are more likely to hurt yourself than use them effectively. If you really want to use poison then you are better taking magic initiate and grabbing the primal savagery or the poison spray cantrip. There are also a huge number of foes that are resistant or outright immune to poison damage.
I made a Frankenstein homebrew, building upon an old post by a reddit user called Shuckeru. Props to him for 90% of th work you see below.
Here's how it works:
Craft slot : You have craft slots equal to your Proficiency modifier in the Poisoner's kit. A poison that you create occupies a number of craft slot (see below) until it is destroyed or used.
Recipe : To craft a poison, you must have the recipe in your poisoners journal. When you start as a poisoner, you know a number of poison recipes of your choice equal to your proficiency modifier. When your proficiency modifier goes up, you learn an additional recipe.
Finding recipe : If you find a recipe, you can copy it into your journal. To do so, you must first study a poison over a long rest to determine its qualities. Studying the poison like this destroys the initial poison, but allows you to fully understand how to craft it.
Crafting recipe : To craft a poison you have to pay the ingredient cost listed. Over a long rest make a check with your poisoner's kit (intelligence) against the listed DC of the poison you want to craft. If you fail the check, the ingredient cost is wasted, and that craft slot must remain empty until your next long rest.
Harvesting poison : You can also harvest poison from dead or Incapacitated creatures. Roll a Nature (int) + Poisoner’s kit Proficiency against a DC = 10 + the creature’s CR/2. If you fail by 5, you are subjected to the poison’s effects. Harvested poisons do not occupy craft slots.
Buying poison: Reputable vendors will not sell you poison as the transaction is illegal in most parts and frown upon everywhere. However, the right contact on the black market can find things, given enough time. Bought poisons do not occupy craft slots. (Priced as per the DMG.)
List of poisons
Name: Assasin's Blood (Ingested)
Ingredient cost: 50 gp
DC: 8
Craft slots required: 1
A creature subjected to this poison must make a DC 10 Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, it takes 1d12 poison damage and is Poisoned for 24 hours. On a successful save, the creature takes half damage and isn’t Poisoned.
At higher craft slots: Add 1d8 poison damage for every additional craft slot used to house this poison, or increase the DC by 2 for every additional craft slot used.
Name: Basic Poison (Injury)
Ingredient cost: 10 gp
DC: 5
Craft slots required: 1
A creature subjected to this poison takes 1d4 poison damage.
At higher craft slots: Add 1d4 poison damage for every additional 1 craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Burnt Othur Fumes (Inhaled)
Ingredient cost: 150 gp
DC: 14
Craft slots required: 3
A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or take 3d6 poison damage, and must repeat the saving throw at the start of each of its turns. On each successive failed save, the character takes 1d6 poison damage. After three successful saves, the poison ends.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison, or increase the initial damage dealt by 1d6.
Name: Crawler Mucus (Contact)
Ingredient cost: 60 gp
DC: 10
Craft slots required: 1
This poison must be harvested from a dead or Incapacitated crawler. A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or be Poisoned for 1 minute. The Poisoned creature is Paralyzed. The creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Drow Posion (Injury)
Ingredient cost: 60 gp
DC: 10
Craft slots required: 1
This poison is typically made only by the drow, and only in a place far removed from sunlight. A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or be Poisoned for 1 hour. If the saving throw fails by 5 or more, the creature is also Unconscious while Poisoned in this way. The creature wakes up if it takes damage or if another creature takes an action to shake it awake.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Essence of Ether (Inhaled)
Ingredient cost: 100 gp
DC: 12
Craft slots required: 2
A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or become Poisoned for 8 hours. The Poisoned creature is Unconscious. The creature wakes up if it takes damage or if another creature takes an action to shake it awake.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Malice (Inhaled)
Ingredient cost: 100 gp
DC: 12
Craft slots required: 2
A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or become Poisoned for 1 hour. The Poisoned creature is Blinded.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Midnight Tears (Ingested)
Ingredient cost: 500 gp
DC: 25
Craft slots required: 4
A creature that ingests this poison suffers no effect until the stroke of midnight. If the poison has not been neutralized before then, the creature must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw, taking 9d6 poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison, or increase the damage by 1d6.
Name: Oil of Taggit (Contact)
Ingredient cost: 125 gp
DC: 13
Craft slots required: 3
A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 13 Constitution saving throw or become Poisoned for 24 hours. The Poisoned creature is Unconscious. The creature wakes up if it takes damage.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Pale Tincture (Ingested)
Ingredient cost: 80 gp
DC: 12
Craft slots required: 2
A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 16 Constitution saving throw or take 3 (1d6) poison damage and become Poisoned. The Poisoned creature must repeat the saving throw every 24 hours, taking 3 (1d6) poison damage on a failed save. Until this poison ends, the damage the poison deals can’t be healed by any means. After seven successful saving throws, the effect ends and the creature can heal normally.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Purple Worm Poison (Injury)
Ingredient cost: 600 gp
DC: 25
Craft slots required: 5
This poison must be harvested from a dead or Incapacitated Purple Worm. A creature subjected to this poison must make a DC 19 Constitution saving throw, taking 12d6 poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for every two addition craft slots used to house this poison, or increase damage by 2d12 for every additional craft slot used.
Name: Serpent Venom (Injury)
Ingredient cost: 60 gp
DC: 10
Craft slots required: 1
This poison must be harvested from a dead or Incapacitated Giant Poisonous Snake. A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 3d6 poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 2 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison, or increase the damage by 1d6 for each addition craft slot used.
Name: Spinner Venom (Injury)
Ingredient cost: 50 gp
DC: 10
Craft slots required: 1
This poison must be harvested from a dead or Incapacitated Giant Spider. A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 11 Constitution saving throw, taking 2d8 poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
If the target is reduced to zero hit points by this damage, the target is stable, but poisoned and paralyzed for 1 hour, even if they regain hit points.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 2 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison, or increase the damage by 1d8 for each addition craft slot used.
Name: Torpor (Injested)
Ingredient cost: 200 gp
DC: 16
Craft slots required: 3
A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 15 Constitution saving throw or become Poisoned for 4d6 hours. The Poisoned creature is Incapacitated.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Truth Serum (Injested)
Ingredient cost: 60 gp
DC: 8
Craft slots required: 1
A creature subjected to this poison must succeed on a DC 12 Constitution saving throw or become Poisoned for 1 hour. The Poisoned creature can’t knowingly speak a lie, as if under the effect of a Zone of Truth spell.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.
Name: Wyvern Poison (Injury)
Ingredient cost: 400
DC: 12
Craft slots required: 4
This poison must be harvested from a dead or Incapacitated Wyvern. A creature subjected to this poison must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw, taking 7d6 poison damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
At higher craft slots: Increase the DC by 1 for each addition craft slot used to house this poison.