Hello fellow GMs! I'm so excited to start my first campaign TOMORROW! Eeee! I have plans for the PCs in their lower levels but I am struggling with some down the road planning.
I'm going to be using a kind of fudgey Milestone system with some grace for making sure the party doesn't take too long to level. The Milestones are based on a mixture of key encounters and key information for the overarching plot, and I've paced out some session number based "deadlines" for myself for roughly when they should level, showing me suggested times for when they should have these key moments. As always there's room for plenty of deviation because it is sandbox with the optional railroad and I do want to make sure each of their personal arcs get enough time.
The first large arc they will encounter involves a BBEG who is royalty and thus fairly untouchable until higher levels. There are key NPCs in place ready to help them find that eventual opening to get close enough to deal with him. They will likely encounter him two or three times in different scenarios before discovering he is behind the plot they're uncovering and begin to make their moves against him. Additionally he will have plenty of hired hands and underlings at his disposal to distract them at lower levels while they still seem like minor annoyances in his eyes.
My struggle is - What level range seems right for them to have their major and definitive encounter with him and his minions? He's not much of a caster, just a few tricks, but he does have a powerful right hand man who is a caster, along with any guards/underlings. I plan on running levels 1-20 and then beyond if they wish to keep going. But I can't put this BBEG too late into the campaign baseline because the results of their encounter with him will directly cause the true horror they have waiting at level 20.
What, in your experience, is a good place to put this first of two major conflicts (the second being a level 20 conflict)?
If you roughly divide your campaign into the Tiers from Dungeon Masters Guide:
1-4 Local heroes
5-10 Heroes of the Realm
11-16 Masters of the Realm
17-20 Masters of the World
I would say level 8-10 for the first of your two major conflicts.
But my other advice would be not to plan it to much into detail. If they are at level 1 now, there is no need to have an precise plan for what will happen at late levels. Instead have an overall plan that you can adjust as the players and you shape the story together. Otherwise you risk having fully detailed something that will never happen in game, cause of player choices.
It might not be much help, but I’d say, just, whenever it happens organically. You don’t want to dictate how quickly the PCs move through the campaign. Maybe they stay laser focused and end up in a position to take him down early. Maybe they go off chasing after something shiny and ignore him for a long while. The longer they wait, the higher level they are, but that also gives him more time to marshal his forces, so it’s reasonable to have a balanced encounter at whatever level. You should have time enough to see it coming for when they’ll fight him, and then be able to design the encounter appropriately.
I like to encounter the BBEG only once, and indirectly, in the middle and/or beginning of a campaign, then save him for your big finally. Take a classic example: Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars. Luke Skywalker, the protagonist, doesn't encounter the emperor until the end, and we, as the audience, only see him as a hologram in Empire Strikes Back. Likewise, I prefer to save BBEG encounters until the very end, but add suspense for them all throughout the campaign. If you absolutely must have a BBEG encounter in the middle of your campaign, wait as late as possible, put the characters in a trap or dungeon, let the villain monologue, then send him away to let an encounter he's sure will kill the characters finish them and provide the major decisions needed. Then, left for dead and presumed to be son, like in the finally of Iron Man or Spider Man: Far From Home, the characters manage to survive, gather their resources, then surprising the villain with their survival, and have the final showdown.
Let them encounter the villain early so they becomes familiar, and set an example of how outmatched the party is by this person. Play your game and slow drop hints that this person is bad news. It's not a bad thing for them to think this person is a good guy at first.
Don't set a level limit when they should engage, let it happen when it happens. It is OK to smack the party the first time they try. Have the villain make snide comments or look down on them. Your aim is to make them angry, not scared.
After the defeat of the villain (YAY!) make sure the event is witnessed by some or many people. Have them rescue some poor abused kid. Unknown the party, this kid or whatever has close ties to the villain and comes back for revenge way later in the campaig (Boba Fett origins).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
The normal cycle of BBEGs is that you beat the BBEG at the end of the season and drop hints about the next BBEG, which may or may not come to pass because you might not get renewed for next season...
Oh wait, D&D. Typically beating a boss means moving on to the next phase of the campaign, with a new stable of bad guys. I'd be tempted come up with four bosses, one for each level tier, and put your suggested BBEG at the end of either tier 2 or tier 3, depending on how much time you want to spend on the "true horror".
If you roughly divide your campaign into the Tiers from Dungeon Masters Guide:
1-4 Local heroes
5-10 Heroes of the Realm
11-16 Masters of the Realm
17-20 Masters of the World
I would say level 8-10 for the first of your two major conflicts.
But my other advice would be not to plan it to much into detail. If they are at level 1 now, there is no need to have an precise plan for what will happen at late levels. Instead have an overall plan that you can adjust as the players and you shape the story together. Otherwise you risk having fully detailed something that will never happen in game, cause of player choices.
Well yes but I do still need to pace the encounters properly so I like to find a good range to aim for. Aim being the key word, not schedule. I was kind of leaning towards that level area but doubting myself. Thanks!
It might not be much help, but I’d say, just, whenever it happens organically. You don’t want to dictate how quickly the PCs move through the campaign. Maybe they stay laser focused and end up in a position to take him down early. Maybe they go off chasing after something shiny and ignore him for a long while. The longer they wait, the higher level they are, but that also gives him more time to marshal his forces, so it’s reasonable to have a balanced encounter at whatever level. You should have time enough to see it coming for when they’ll fight him, and then be able to design the encounter appropriately.
I can't leave it too open ended. And they will not be able to handle, let alone get to him without some level of local renown. He's royalty of a neighboring kingdom. It's going to take clever planning and the right allies to get close enough to strike.
I like to encounter the BBEG only once, and indirectly, in the middle and/or beginning of a campaign, then save him for your big finally. Take a classic example: Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars. Luke Skywalker, the protagonist, doesn't encounter the emperor until the end, and we, as the audience, only see him as a hologram in Empire Strikes Back. Likewise, I prefer to save BBEG encounters until the very end, but add suspense for them all throughout the campaign. If you absolutely must have a BBEG encounter in the middle of your campaign, wait as late as possible, put the characters in a trap or dungeon, let the villain monologue, then send him away to let an encounter he's sure will kill the characters finish them and provide the major decisions needed. Then, left for dead and presumed to be son, like in the finally of Iron Man or Spider Man: Far From Home, the characters manage to survive, gather their resources, then surprising the villain with their survival, and have the final showdown.
I appreciate the time you put in to reply but you did not pay attention to the original post. There is a BBEG Horror for the end of the campaign arc. The first BBEG is a part of the domino effect that causes it. Dead or alive.
Let them encounter the villain early so they becomes familiar, and set an example of how outmatched the party is by this person. Play your game and slow drop hints that this person is bad news. It's not a bad thing for them to think this person is a good guy at first.
Don't set a level limit when they should engage, let it happen when it happens. It is OK to smack the party the first time they try. Have the villain make snide comments or look down on them. Your aim is to make them angry, not scared.
After the defeat of the villain (YAY!) make sure the event is witnessed by some or many people. Have them rescue some poor abused kid. Unknown the party, this kid or whatever has close ties to the villain and comes back for revenge way later in the campaig (Boba Fett origins).
Like I stated, these wrist slaps from him can and may happen in order to show how outmatched they are, depending on how they encounter him early on. They'll get their soft introduction or bits of information and if they want to attempt combat, he won't outright kill them. To him, until they get in his way two or three times they're just mild inconveniences. The push and pull builds familiarity with each other and can cultivate seeds of personal hate/intrigue with him. It's more of a question of pacing so they can get their false sense of comfort if they defeat him before the real challenge rears its ugly head. The endgame BBEG is already picked and I've set it so no matter what decisions they make it will still come. Fixed point in time sort of thing.
In my current campaign, I've also got something of a "domino effect." The first act will end ~10th level. The second act goes from 11th-15th, and the third and last from 16th-20th. Now, my story is (probably :p) very different from yours, and it'll really depend on how much time you want to spend in each "arc" of your game. Particularly, the way you describe this first BBEG sounds like they wouldn't be much of a challenge for 10th-level characters.
Just based on your OP, it sounds like a good enemy for a party of 5th or 6th level. At 5th level, spellcasters first get 3rd level spells, which is a big boost in power. That makes it a good place to put them up against their first major enemy.
The normal cycle of BBEGs is that you beat the BBEG at the end of the season and drop hints about the next BBEG, which may or may not come to pass because you might not get renewed for next season...
Oh wait, D&D. Typically beating a boss means moving on to the next phase of the campaign, with a new stable of bad guys. I'd be tempted come up with four bosses, one for each level tier, and put your suggested BBEG at the end of either tier 2 or tier 3, depending on how much time you want to spend on the "true horror".
*Nodding head* Okay, I like it. Story structure is a concept I understand better than "just feel it out!" The tier 1 or 2 boss would be directly linked to the "first" BBEG and then the 3rd to the endgame BBEG. Which gives me a few new ideas for NPCs. Thanks!
In my current campaign, I've also got something of a "domino effect." The first act will end ~10th level. The second act goes from 11th-15th, and the third and last from 16th-20th. Now, my story is (probably :p) very different from yours, and it'll really depend on how much time you want to spend in each "arc" of your game. Particularly, the way you describe this first BBEG sounds like they wouldn't be much of a challenge for 10th-level characters.
Just based on your OP, it sounds like a good enemy for a party of 5th or 6th level. At 5th level, spellcasters first get 3rd level spells, which is a big boost in power. That makes it a good place to put them up against their first major enemy.
Okay, I dig it. Paints a nice picture for it. Only thing is does him being royalty with resources at his disposal and plenty of followers warrant perhaps closer to 8th level?
Narratively, yeah, for sure, 8th level can work. This is especially true if you want your players to take him down with some political scheme rather than a straight-up fight.
The concern I have is that he sounds like his individual combat abilities don't amount to much. You can definitely make a fun, challenging fight for an 8th-level party; I'd give him a court magician or something to create some interesting magical difficulties, and of course minions. But even then, a physical bruiser can be tough, but it doesn't feel that impressive past a certain point.
I'm personally partial to non-combat political plots, so having that be the challenge in front of the players sounds great to me, but if you do want this to end in a "boss fight," at 8th-level consider this: I have no idea what your greater horror endgame BBEG is, but what if it did some kind of magical transformation or possession to your royal guy? Like maybe phase 1 of the fight is just taking down this physical bruiser, but once they drop him to 0 HP, he grows tentacles and gets some new powers or something (or whatever's appropriate to your endgame villain)? I realize this is way beyond the scope of what you've asked, but it was just some stuff that popped into my head, haha.
Narratively, yeah, for sure, 8th level can work. This is especially true if you want your players to take him down with some political scheme rather than a straight-up fight.
The concern I have is that he sounds like his individual combat abilities don't amount to much. You can definitely make a fun, challenging fight for an 8th-level party; I'd give him a court magician or something to create some interesting magical difficulties, and of course minions. But even then, a physical bruiser can be tough, but it doesn't feel that impressive past a certain point.
I'm personally partial to non-combat political plots, so having that be the challenge in front of the players sounds great to me, but if you do want this to end in a "boss fight," at 8th-level consider this: I have no idea what your greater horror endgame BBEG is, but what if it did some kind of magical transformation or possession to your royal guy? Like maybe phase 1 of the fight is just taking down this physical bruiser, but once they drop him to 0 HP, he grows tentacles and gets some new powers or something (or whatever's appropriate to your endgame villain)? I realize this is way beyond the scope of what you've asked, but it was just some stuff that popped into my head, haha.
Haha! I appreciate the brainstorming. He's not physically linked directly to the end game but his actions open the path that creates the endgame. And he does have a powerful caster as his right hand man, plus any guards, soldiers, or summoned entities for canon fodder. He's a skilled battlefield fighter himself but the real challenge comes from his wizard. If they're smart and focus on the caster they have a chance at capturing the BBEG alone and having him imprisoned for his actions.
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Hello fellow GMs! I'm so excited to start my first campaign TOMORROW! Eeee! I have plans for the PCs in their lower levels but I am struggling with some down the road planning.
I'm going to be using a kind of fudgey Milestone system with some grace for making sure the party doesn't take too long to level. The Milestones are based on a mixture of key encounters and key information for the overarching plot, and I've paced out some session number based "deadlines" for myself for roughly when they should level, showing me suggested times for when they should have these key moments. As always there's room for plenty of deviation because it is sandbox with the optional railroad and I do want to make sure each of their personal arcs get enough time.
The first large arc they will encounter involves a BBEG who is royalty and thus fairly untouchable until higher levels. There are key NPCs in place ready to help them find that eventual opening to get close enough to deal with him. They will likely encounter him two or three times in different scenarios before discovering he is behind the plot they're uncovering and begin to make their moves against him. Additionally he will have plenty of hired hands and underlings at his disposal to distract them at lower levels while they still seem like minor annoyances in his eyes.
My struggle is - What level range seems right for them to have their major and definitive encounter with him and his minions? He's not much of a caster, just a few tricks, but he does have a powerful right hand man who is a caster, along with any guards/underlings. I plan on running levels 1-20 and then beyond if they wish to keep going. But I can't put this BBEG too late into the campaign baseline because the results of their encounter with him will directly cause the true horror they have waiting at level 20.
What, in your experience, is a good place to put this first of two major conflicts (the second being a level 20 conflict)?
Thanks! -Leah
If you roughly divide your campaign into the Tiers from Dungeon Masters Guide:
I would say level 8-10 for the first of your two major conflicts.
But my other advice would be not to plan it to much into detail. If they are at level 1 now, there is no need to have an precise plan for what will happen at late levels. Instead have an overall plan that you can adjust as the players and you shape the story together. Otherwise you risk having fully detailed something that will never happen in game, cause of player choices.
It might not be much help, but I’d say, just, whenever it happens organically. You don’t want to dictate how quickly the PCs move through the campaign. Maybe they stay laser focused and end up in a position to take him down early. Maybe they go off chasing after something shiny and ignore him for a long while. The longer they wait, the higher level they are, but that also gives him more time to marshal his forces, so it’s reasonable to have a balanced encounter at whatever level.
You should have time enough to see it coming for when they’ll fight him, and then be able to design the encounter appropriately.
I like to encounter the BBEG only once, and indirectly, in the middle and/or beginning of a campaign, then save him for your big finally. Take a classic example: Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars. Luke Skywalker, the protagonist, doesn't encounter the emperor until the end, and we, as the audience, only see him as a hologram in Empire Strikes Back. Likewise, I prefer to save BBEG encounters until the very end, but add suspense for them all throughout the campaign. If you absolutely must have a BBEG encounter in the middle of your campaign, wait as late as possible, put the characters in a trap or dungeon, let the villain monologue, then send him away to let an encounter he's sure will kill the characters finish them and provide the major decisions needed. Then, left for dead and presumed to be son, like in the finally of Iron Man or Spider Man: Far From Home, the characters manage to survive, gather their resources, then surprising the villain with their survival, and have the final showdown.
Let them encounter the villain early so they becomes familiar, and set an example of how outmatched the party is by this person. Play your game and slow drop hints that this person is bad news. It's not a bad thing for them to think this person is a good guy at first.
Don't set a level limit when they should engage, let it happen when it happens. It is OK to smack the party the first time they try. Have the villain make snide comments or look down on them. Your aim is to make them angry, not scared.
After the defeat of the villain (YAY!) make sure the event is witnessed by some or many people. Have them rescue some poor abused kid. Unknown the party, this kid or whatever has close ties to the villain and comes back for revenge way later in the campaig (Boba Fett origins).
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
The normal cycle of BBEGs is that you beat the BBEG at the end of the season and drop hints about the next BBEG, which may or may not come to pass because you might not get renewed for next season...
Oh wait, D&D. Typically beating a boss means moving on to the next phase of the campaign, with a new stable of bad guys. I'd be tempted come up with four bosses, one for each level tier, and put your suggested BBEG at the end of either tier 2 or tier 3, depending on how much time you want to spend on the "true horror".
Well yes but I do still need to pace the encounters properly so I like to find a good range to aim for. Aim being the key word, not schedule. I was kind of leaning towards that level area but doubting myself. Thanks!
I can't leave it too open ended. And they will not be able to handle, let alone get to him without some level of local renown. He's royalty of a neighboring kingdom. It's going to take clever planning and the right allies to get close enough to strike.
I appreciate the time you put in to reply but you did not pay attention to the original post. There is a BBEG Horror for the end of the campaign arc. The first BBEG is a part of the domino effect that causes it. Dead or alive.
Like I stated, these wrist slaps from him can and may happen in order to show how outmatched they are, depending on how they encounter him early on. They'll get their soft introduction or bits of information and if they want to attempt combat, he won't outright kill them. To him, until they get in his way two or three times they're just mild inconveniences. The push and pull builds familiarity with each other and can cultivate seeds of personal hate/intrigue with him. It's more of a question of pacing so they can get their false sense of comfort if they defeat him before the real challenge rears its ugly head. The endgame BBEG is already picked and I've set it so no matter what decisions they make it will still come. Fixed point in time sort of thing.
In my current campaign, I've also got something of a "domino effect." The first act will end ~10th level. The second act goes from 11th-15th, and the third and last from 16th-20th. Now, my story is (probably :p) very different from yours, and it'll really depend on how much time you want to spend in each "arc" of your game. Particularly, the way you describe this first BBEG sounds like they wouldn't be much of a challenge for 10th-level characters.
Just based on your OP, it sounds like a good enemy for a party of 5th or 6th level. At 5th level, spellcasters first get 3rd level spells, which is a big boost in power. That makes it a good place to put them up against their first major enemy.
*Nodding head* Okay, I like it. Story structure is a concept I understand better than "just feel it out!" The tier 1 or 2 boss would be directly linked to the "first" BBEG and then the 3rd to the endgame BBEG. Which gives me a few new ideas for NPCs. Thanks!
Okay, I dig it. Paints a nice picture for it. Only thing is does him being royalty with resources at his disposal and plenty of followers warrant perhaps closer to 8th level?
Narratively, yeah, for sure, 8th level can work. This is especially true if you want your players to take him down with some political scheme rather than a straight-up fight.
The concern I have is that he sounds like his individual combat abilities don't amount to much. You can definitely make a fun, challenging fight for an 8th-level party; I'd give him a court magician or something to create some interesting magical difficulties, and of course minions. But even then, a physical bruiser can be tough, but it doesn't feel that impressive past a certain point.
I'm personally partial to non-combat political plots, so having that be the challenge in front of the players sounds great to me, but if you do want this to end in a "boss fight," at 8th-level consider this: I have no idea what your greater horror endgame BBEG is, but what if it did some kind of magical transformation or possession to your royal guy? Like maybe phase 1 of the fight is just taking down this physical bruiser, but once they drop him to 0 HP, he grows tentacles and gets some new powers or something (or whatever's appropriate to your endgame villain)? I realize this is way beyond the scope of what you've asked, but it was just some stuff that popped into my head, haha.
Haha! I appreciate the brainstorming. He's not physically linked directly to the end game but his actions open the path that creates the endgame. And he does have a powerful caster as his right hand man, plus any guards, soldiers, or summoned entities for canon fodder. He's a skilled battlefield fighter himself but the real challenge comes from his wizard. If they're smart and focus on the caster they have a chance at capturing the BBEG alone and having him imprisoned for his actions.