The very first fight in the adventure (as written) is a bandit captain and five bandits. Afer the encounter, the adventure literally says "Make su re the characters advance to 2nd level before continuing the adventure" implying the encounter I mentioned is supposed to be appropiate for level one characters.
The thing is, the Bandit Captain ALONE should be able to be a match for a 1st level party, at least one not severely minmaxed and well equiped. He has three attacks per round and he can easily drop a PC each round. Add five bandits, and I think my PCs will never actually make it to hell (their chars are pretty decent people).
We've been playing for a while, but it's easy to forget how squishy one is at first level. I don't want to steal from them the chance to experience the adventure "as written" and I wonder if the encounter is actually reasonable for about four starting level characters (2 monks, 1 hexblade, 1 sorcerer, 1 trickery cleric.)
Any hints anecdotes, and tales would be much appreciated!
Was a while ago but the whole of chapter 1 is a real issue IMO.
For that fight I had their contact step in - the bandit captain was really interested in her, but she would only give the PCs the information they needed after they "waited a while" ie/ after he turned up because she knew she needed help. I also played her as a bit of a card shark so she offered to waive the debts of people if they would help. 1 or 2 took her up on the offer (just attacking the regular pirates or giving advantage etc). If it is not just "I roll attack, they roll to attack" then it is manageable. (Blocking the stairs with a couch is one example I have seen. Also the bouncer isn't going to take kindly to the place being wrecked, if you really need some help). That being said it was almost a TPK - only player lived and the rest were stabilised.
The Dungeon of the dead 3 was a TPK for me - one fireball and off you go. Partly my fault, partly the parties. Flennis is no joke at level 3. Then the villa - again my players played stupid but the entrance room with 4 imps ... on paper it seems fine but my rogue fought 1 solo, my cleric never got to cast a spell and the sorcerer only had fire and poison based attack spells - of which imps are both immune. The fight should have been rated "medium" but my five level 4 PCs (equipped with legendary items - long story) got completely destroyed. Another TPK.
That being said I do firmly believe that if they had played it smart then it would have been a different story, but it isn't an easy start for people who want to play as a video game.
[The villa for example, one person disguised themselves as the lady vanthampur ... a great idea! However they had the entire party walking after them "looting everything that isn't nailed down". This is in full view of the butler. Hard to rationalise that the butler, who knows the lady should be elsewhere is not going to raise an eyebrow at wholesale looting and pillaging. And "her" answers didn't help assuage him any.]
Good luck. I am starting again with some of the people in the group. Making them hellriders and basically skipping most of the first chapter (or at least giving them the option to). Mostly to avoid them going over the same stuff again, but also because it didn't tie in too well IMO. Hopefully this run goes better.
I see what you mean, and I thank you for the feedback. The problem with DnD is that good ideas are so very often defeated by bad skill rolls - fail this essential stealth, deception or persuation check and all hell breaks loose. I'm thinking of having the fight against the captain alone - it'll be still be a challenge (if the dice will it, it might even be a TPK) but at least would be a balanced encounter.
You are forgetting they get social xp for Captain Zodge. But for the fight itself. Have some of the tavern people join in on the players side. Even allow them to run the npcs. Now answer this question. Are you a survivor, loot drop, or body? This question was asked by some random children to the pcs in my campaign. Also I was running as Tier 1 Adventure League game so I had to make adjustments.
***Nat. “How can you tell Gaters from outsiders.”
Jenks. “Gaters know there are three type of people. Survivor’s. Loot Drops. Or body.”
Squiddly, “What the difference between a Loot Drop and a body?”
Nat, “With a body you can only loot it once and sell it to the necromancers. With proper beatings, you can make a loot drop drop loot every tenday.”
I see what you mean, and I thank you for the feedback. The problem with DnD is that good ideas are so very often defeated by bad skill rolls - fail this essential stealth, deception or persuation check and all hell breaks loose. I'm thinking of having the fight against the captain alone - it'll be still be a challenge (if the dice will it, it might even be a TPK) but at least would be a balanced encounter.
Bad skill rolls - yes and no. Matt Colville did a good video about multiple fail safes. He described where one bad roll had an effect but wasn't a save or die. For example, you are trying to sneak into a compound. You hide and fail. Guards don't immediately attack, but instead come to question you. That opens up the option for a persuasion or intimidation check. If it comes to a fight and they get beaten then you have a hide check for the bodies etc. The compound is now on alert and the DCs might get higher but it isn't an all or nothing roll. He says it better.
Also think about degrees of success. Moving a couch to a stairway is something anyone can do. Adventuring heroes it shouldn't even be a check. How well they block the stairwell before the couch become stuck is the question. So they roll athletics but the roll determines the success. Beat a 5, it is blocked partially - rough terrain 1 square. Beat a 10 and maybe the enemies need a whole turn to get over it. A 15, a whole turn and you get a free attack if you are standing in the right spot. A 20 and it is fully blocked - they have to destroy the couch before they can get past - give it *shrug* 30 hp and let them roll, after that it is as a 15.
With this fight they are also not going to be attacking in a clump - they will be spread out to try and find your contact. This means you can have some downstairs when the fight starts. Blocking the stairwell is one way the PCs can effect it but you can also just decide that the pirates are cowards and run away or that the other patrons get in on the action. Who doesn't love a good tavern brawl?! There are some NPCs outlined so even without lethal options some of those are going to be able to tie up combatants. Then if the fight is too easy you can have reinforcements come.
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The very first fight in the adventure (as written) is a bandit captain and five bandits. Afer the encounter, the adventure literally says "Make su re the characters
advance to 2nd level before continuing the adventure" implying the encounter I mentioned is supposed to be appropiate for level one characters.
The thing is, the Bandit Captain ALONE should be able to be a match for a 1st level party, at least one not severely minmaxed and well equiped. He has three attacks per round and he can easily drop a PC each round. Add five bandits, and I think my PCs will never actually make it to hell (their chars are pretty decent people).
We've been playing for a while, but it's easy to forget how squishy one is at first level. I don't want to steal from them the chance to experience the adventure "as written" and I wonder if the encounter is actually reasonable for about four starting level characters (2 monks, 1 hexblade, 1 sorcerer, 1 trickery cleric.)
Any hints anecdotes, and tales would be much appreciated!
Was a while ago but the whole of chapter 1 is a real issue IMO.
For that fight I had their contact step in - the bandit captain was really interested in her, but she would only give the PCs the information they needed after they "waited a while" ie/ after he turned up because she knew she needed help. I also played her as a bit of a card shark so she offered to waive the debts of people if they would help. 1 or 2 took her up on the offer (just attacking the regular pirates or giving advantage etc). If it is not just "I roll attack, they roll to attack" then it is manageable. (Blocking the stairs with a couch is one example I have seen. Also the bouncer isn't going to take kindly to the place being wrecked, if you really need some help).
That being said it was almost a TPK - only player lived and the rest were stabilised.
The Dungeon of the dead 3 was a TPK for me - one fireball and off you go. Partly my fault, partly the parties. Flennis is no joke at level 3.
Then the villa - again my players played stupid but the entrance room with 4 imps ... on paper it seems fine but my rogue fought 1 solo, my cleric never got to cast a spell and the sorcerer only had fire and poison based attack spells - of which imps are both immune. The fight should have been rated "medium" but my five level 4 PCs (equipped with legendary items - long story) got completely destroyed. Another TPK.
That being said I do firmly believe that if they had played it smart then it would have been a different story, but it isn't an easy start for people who want to play as a video game.
[The villa for example, one person disguised themselves as the lady vanthampur ... a great idea! However they had the entire party walking after them "looting everything that isn't nailed down". This is in full view of the butler. Hard to rationalise that the butler, who knows the lady should be elsewhere is not going to raise an eyebrow at wholesale looting and pillaging. And "her" answers didn't help assuage him any.]
Good luck. I am starting again with some of the people in the group. Making them hellriders and basically skipping most of the first chapter (or at least giving them the option to). Mostly to avoid them going over the same stuff again, but also because it didn't tie in too well IMO. Hopefully this run goes better.
I see what you mean, and I thank you for the feedback. The problem with DnD is that good ideas are so very often defeated by bad skill rolls - fail this essential stealth, deception or persuation check and all hell breaks loose. I'm thinking of having the fight against the captain alone - it'll be still be a challenge (if the dice will it, it might even be a TPK) but at least would be a balanced encounter.
You are forgetting they get social xp for Captain Zodge. But for the fight itself. Have some of the tavern people join in on the players side. Even allow them to run the npcs. Now answer this question. Are you a survivor, loot drop, or body? This question was asked by some random children to the pcs in my campaign. Also I was running as Tier 1 Adventure League game so I had to make adjustments.
***Nat. “How can you tell Gaters from outsiders.”
Jenks. “Gaters know there are three type of people. Survivor’s. Loot Drops. Or body.”
Squiddly, “What the difference between a Loot Drop and a body?”
Nat, “With a body you can only loot it once and sell it to the necromancers. With proper beatings, you can make a loot drop drop loot every tenday.”
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Bad skill rolls - yes and no. Matt Colville did a good video about multiple fail safes. He described where one bad roll had an effect but wasn't a save or die. For example, you are trying to sneak into a compound. You hide and fail. Guards don't immediately attack, but instead come to question you. That opens up the option for a persuasion or intimidation check. If it comes to a fight and they get beaten then you have a hide check for the bodies etc. The compound is now on alert and the DCs might get higher but it isn't an all or nothing roll. He says it better.
Also think about degrees of success. Moving a couch to a stairway is something anyone can do. Adventuring heroes it shouldn't even be a check. How well they block the stairwell before the couch become stuck is the question. So they roll athletics but the roll determines the success. Beat a 5, it is blocked partially - rough terrain 1 square. Beat a 10 and maybe the enemies need a whole turn to get over it. A 15, a whole turn and you get a free attack if you are standing in the right spot. A 20 and it is fully blocked - they have to destroy the couch before they can get past - give it *shrug* 30 hp and let them roll, after that it is as a 15.
With this fight they are also not going to be attacking in a clump - they will be spread out to try and find your contact. This means you can have some downstairs when the fight starts. Blocking the stairwell is one way the PCs can effect it but you can also just decide that the pirates are cowards and run away or that the other patrons get in on the action. Who doesn't love a good tavern brawl?! There are some NPCs outlined so even without lethal options some of those are going to be able to tie up combatants. Then if the fight is too easy you can have reinforcements come.