I plan on running an adventure using Tales of the Yawning portal adventure The Sunless Citadel. I am new to DMing but I made a huge mistake by creating over powered PC's I have 3 players who are playing there first campaign and have leveled up to 7. I know The Sunless Citadel is a progressive level 1-3 and I like the set up (enemy's and dungeon layout). I have used 20 Orcs against the party and I found it to much to handle, how can I increase the difficulty without just leveling up the hit points and AC on some of the enemy's?
So basically how can I scale a level 1 dungeon to a level 7 without just increasing hit points and AC?
Given that hit points and AC are two of the main things that go up as monsters become more difficult (that is part of what makes the monsters more difficult), I'm not sure what you want us to say. You are running a level 7 party through a level 1-3 adventure. There are, broadly speaking, three possibilities:
Option 1 - Keep the adventure exactly as is, let it be too easy, and the players run rampant through it with zero challenge. Some people like that, so you could do it that way.
Option 2 - Dramatically change all the enemies to match the party level. Replace Orcs with Yuan-Ti, replace ogres with Frost Giants, replace wolves with Owl Bears, etc.
Option 3 - Retain the enemy identities (orcs, goblins, bugbears, wolves) and increase their h.p., damage output, and AC to be more along the lines of a higher level foe.
If you don't increase the hp, the orcs will go down in 1-2 hits. Then you will, as you saw, need many of them to be a challenge, and running such a battle more than once in a while can become tedious. If you don't at least increase their to-hit bonus against the PCs, they will just whiff constantly, and do almost no damage when they do hit, and there will be no threat.
In short, you are asking the nearly-impossible. A level 1 enemy simply cannot challenge a level 7 party without a buff to hp and AC, or without there being 20 of them. 3 or 4 orcs with 15 hp are just not going to do it for you. A level 7 can one-shot that.
My solution to this would be to find something of an appropriate challenge, use its statblock, and reskin it as an orc - like the bugbear chief. It's CR 3, has good AC and hp, multiattack, does decent damage, has some very mild resistances. A handful of those against a level 7 party will make them work for it without being OP.
i ran Sunless Citadel a few months back for players at Level 4 for 5 pc's and made few changes, honestly it was a mistake, it was massively to easy even at that level, like it wasn't even fun easy. At level 7 i imagine this would be that even more.
What's worth bearing in mind is that its not just the creature CR level, the adventure is designed for 1-3 and the limitations of those levels. just increasing Hp and damage is not enough. The first 8 fights being giant rats doesn't become more fun for level 7 just because the rats aren't one hit kills.
edit - wanted to clarify what I meant here. If you think about level 1 players most of the time are just learning what there characters can (and if they are hopping off another higher levelled campaign, can’t) do. They are refining how back story arcs into play style, experimenting with weapons, and formations. Things your players fundamentally shouldn’t be doing at 7th level anymore. So at first level, 8 encounters against rats in a row allows for that, it also allows the DM to learn how the players will react to things, are they cautious or foolhardy, do they look for combat or look to end fights before they begin?
seventh level is right in the D&D sweet spot, this campaign arc won’t feel like they for them and as a DM you will feel that they aren’t feeling it.
If you search Orc in the Monsters section, you will find entries that range from CR 2 up to CR 4. Maybe some mix of these enemies would be more interesting and challenging than the standard Orc.
Sounds like a lot of work. To make any sort of challenge, you'd nearly have to build an adventure from scratch, scaling enemies, challenges, and treasure. Which, if you just want to build your own adventure using that layout, is totally fine.
The Yawning Portal has higher level adventures. You might either do the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan (4-5 5th level characters), or White Plume Mountain (8th level), and save the Sunless Citadel for another day.
Thank you for the information, So I think I may make an adjustment by using the stat blocks for more of the CR 3 or 4 but keep the enemy's for this run.
Thank you for the information.I wasn't saying Don't increase there AC and Hit points its more of what else can I do to make more challenging with this party I normally do increase ac and hit points. I did find another post that seems like maybe keep it where it is but just add two or three bigger enemy's to command the rest and give them additional abilities. Thank you for the three options I have a shopping session coming up I think I will have an encounter with a new challenging enemy and judge there reactions during and basis on conversation after the battle and explore the options above to see what they think. Thank you.
Thank you. You do bring excellent points to the table. I think a combination of most of the suggestions will be best left for maybe a future game. Thank you
Thank you for the information.I wasn't saying Don't increase there AC and Hit points its more of what else can I do to make more challenging with this party I normally do increase ac and hit points.
The other thing you can do is study what higher CR monsters have to them besides AC and hit points. Some common themes in higher CR monsters (with more of these appearing as the CR increases)...
Offensive
Multi-attacks: The monster can attack 2-3 times (e.g., claw/claw/bite)
Spells/spell-like abilities: 1/day fireballs, 2/day scorching rays, things like that
Save-based effects: Curses, paralyses, other conditions, that engage on a failed save.
Defensive
Damage Resistances: Certain types of attacks do half damage. Most common are weapon types (slashing, bludgeoning, etc.), but they can have resistance to anything
Magic Resistances: Advantage on saving throws vs. certain things or maybe even all magic spells
Damage Type Immunity: Certain types of damage just do nothing to them. Again most common are weapon attacks, especially non-magical, with Magic weapons being required to do damage.
Spells/spell-like abilities: 1/day Shield, 2/day Healing Word, Regeneration, etc.
If you just give regular Orcs some of these, like damage resistance and multi-attack, they will punch way above their CR.
So I really can’t stress enough that just increasing the CR won’t make this a great time for level 7’s. What is it exactly that makes you want to do sunless citadel only? If it’s just wanting an old school dungeon crawl there are others that are actually correctly levelled for your players, some within Yawning portal. This really isn’t and while you may be able to squeeze playability out of it, it’s going to be far less than you would get from one that isn’t designed as an introduction dungeon.
I have plenty of Old school type adventure modules, I have ran through two of them but reading this one kind of stood out it seemed like a good dungeon crawl which the PC's haven't experienced yet, minor puzzles, interaction with a friendly or unfriendly NPC depending on which action the players choose (which would be friendly) which they two of the players would like and a dragon which another player would like (Fighting or befriending). Sunless Citadel hit everything everyone was looking for when I was looking through the modules. If you have any other suggestions I am open I mainly read through the modules during the weekend and finish the read through out the week, I have about two sessions until they finish the current objective. They are looking for Puzzles, friendly interactions with NPC's, and Dragons. Again thank you for your input.
@BoboGaming16: Whatever you do with the monsters when you upgrade them, do yourself a favour and do NOT increase the quantity significantly, or at all. You will find a cluttered field a serious pain when trying to go through the Initiative cycle.
There are some great suggestions here. Might I also say that giving some of the Orcs Pack Tactics (instead of their movement boost feature) and a few leader Orcs the ability to boost damage of nearby Orcs (similar to the Hobgoblin commander ability) would be flavorful and quite a power boost? Also, adding a few archers with homebrew tower shields w/ arrow slits for 3/4 cover would add some tactical challenges for the party as well.
Another route you might want to explore depends on the appetite for "puzzles, interaction and Dragons". If there is an overarching narrative reason for the characters to find out things rather than just kill them some of the overpowered/underpowered issues lesson. Consider US style "shock and awe" destroying rooms full of potential intelligence sources. Uncertainty over when and how to use their excessive power introduces a challenge and the need to think. Dragons are known for their guile as well as being tough beasts... a sinister plotter may need their plans to be understand and unravelled rather than just killing everything in sight. And the Dragon can make a rewarding Boss fight that is earned through solving the mysteries
Levels are less important when you have to persuade the powerless peasant/orc to help you. It's a very different style of play but there are lots of useful guides around (including how to do interrogations in a more entertaining way!)
In the end you're going to need to do some pretty substantial redesign, particularly for the early parts of the module (level 1->level 7 is a lot more significant than level 3->level 9, and with the way xp works, they might actually only level up to 8).
To convert a level 1 encounter to level 7, you have to multiply the encounter budget by 15. This typically either means six times as many monsters (ugh....) or much higher CR. Level 2->8 is 9x, level 3-7 is 7x. To directly swap out monsters:
Replace CR 1/8 with CR 2 (18x value) or CR 1 for level 2-3 encounters (8x)
Replace CR 1/4 with CR 3 (14x value) or CR 2 for level 2-3 encounters (9x)
Replace CR 1/2 with CR 5 (18x value) or CR 3 for level 2-3 encounters (7x)
Replace CR 1 with CR 7 (14.5x value) or CR 5 for level 2-3 encounters (9x)
In the end you're going to need to do some pretty substantial redesign, particularly for the early parts of the module (level 1->level 7 is a lot more significant than level 3->level 9, and with the way xp works, they might actually only level up to 8).
To convert a level 1 encounter to level 7, you have to multiply the encounter budget by 15. This typically either means six times as many monsters (ugh....) or much higher CR. Level 2->8 is 9x, level 3-7 is 7x. To directly swap out monsters:
Replace CR 1/8 with CR 2 (18x value) or CR 1 for level 2-3 encounters (8x)
Replace CR 1/4 with CR 3 (14x value) or CR 2 for level 2-3 encounters (9x)
Replace CR 1/2 with CR 5 (18x value) or CR 3 for level 2-3 encounters (7x)
Replace CR 1 with CR 7 (14.5x value) or CR 5 for level 2-3 encounters (9x)
I want to understand this but I'm failing.
I'm trying to understand because I'm planning on running Sunless Citidal myself for my 4 players who have 4th level characters. Right now I've increased the number of monsters per encounter but after reading this thread I see that might not be the best solution. What I've read in your post I feel like could really help me out with my overall goal to upscale the encounters.
I have an example from the adventure
"Creatures. The three goblin assigned to watch the room spend some of their time shooting at the hair-and-fur-filled burlap dummies that look vaguely like humans and elves. The rest of the time they drink too much goblin wine."
So these 1/4 goblins I would need to upscale, looking at Bugbears, to a better CR creature. Or I assume that is what you were trying to say.
If you would be willing, can you explain this again, like how you are getting your multiplication or X values? Thanks.
So these 1/4 goblins I would need to upscale to a better CR creature. Or I assume that is what you were trying to say.
Yes, that is what he is trying to say. You would need to find a reasonable CR 3 monster like the Bugbear Chief or a Yuan-Ti Malison to crib from and use their stats for the goblins. That is, if you want the fight with your party to be equivalent to what that fight would have been for a party of level 1s.
I plan on running an adventure using Tales of the Yawning portal adventure The Sunless Citadel. I am new to DMing but I made a huge mistake by creating over powered PC's I have 3 players who are playing there first campaign and have leveled up to 7. I know The Sunless Citadel is a progressive level 1-3 and I like the set up (enemy's and dungeon layout). I have used 20 Orcs against the party and I found it to much to handle, how can I increase the difficulty without just leveling up the hit points and AC on some of the enemy's?
So basically how can I scale a level 1 dungeon to a level 7 without just increasing hit points and AC?
Given that hit points and AC are two of the main things that go up as monsters become more difficult (that is part of what makes the monsters more difficult), I'm not sure what you want us to say. You are running a level 7 party through a level 1-3 adventure. There are, broadly speaking, three possibilities:
Option 1 - Keep the adventure exactly as is, let it be too easy, and the players run rampant through it with zero challenge. Some people like that, so you could do it that way.
Option 2 - Dramatically change all the enemies to match the party level. Replace Orcs with Yuan-Ti, replace ogres with Frost Giants, replace wolves with Owl Bears, etc.
Option 3 - Retain the enemy identities (orcs, goblins, bugbears, wolves) and increase their h.p., damage output, and AC to be more along the lines of a higher level foe.
If you don't increase the hp, the orcs will go down in 1-2 hits. Then you will, as you saw, need many of them to be a challenge, and running such a battle more than once in a while can become tedious. If you don't at least increase their to-hit bonus against the PCs, they will just whiff constantly, and do almost no damage when they do hit, and there will be no threat.
In short, you are asking the nearly-impossible. A level 1 enemy simply cannot challenge a level 7 party without a buff to hp and AC, or without there being 20 of them. 3 or 4 orcs with 15 hp are just not going to do it for you. A level 7 can one-shot that.
My solution to this would be to find something of an appropriate challenge, use its statblock, and reskin it as an orc - like the bugbear chief. It's CR 3, has good AC and hp, multiattack, does decent damage, has some very mild resistances. A handful of those against a level 7 party will make them work for it without being OP.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
i ran Sunless Citadel a few months back for players at Level 4 for 5 pc's and made few changes, honestly it was a mistake, it was massively to easy even at that level, like it wasn't even fun easy. At level 7 i imagine this would be that even more.
What's worth bearing in mind is that its not just the creature CR level, the adventure is designed for 1-3 and the limitations of those levels. just increasing Hp and damage is not enough. The first 8 fights being giant rats doesn't become more fun for level 7 just because the rats aren't one hit kills.
edit - wanted to clarify what I meant here. If you think about level 1 players most of the time are just learning what there characters can (and if they are hopping off another higher levelled campaign, can’t) do. They are refining how back story arcs into play style, experimenting with weapons, and formations. Things your players fundamentally shouldn’t be doing at 7th level anymore. So at first level, 8 encounters against rats in a row allows for that, it also allows the DM to learn how the players will react to things, are they cautious or foolhardy, do they look for combat or look to end fights before they begin?
seventh level is right in the D&D sweet spot, this campaign arc won’t feel like they for them and as a DM you will feel that they aren’t feeling it.
If you search Orc in the Monsters section, you will find entries that range from CR 2 up to CR 4. Maybe some mix of these enemies would be more interesting and challenging than the standard Orc.
Sounds like a lot of work. To make any sort of challenge, you'd nearly have to build an adventure from scratch, scaling enemies, challenges, and treasure. Which, if you just want to build your own adventure using that layout, is totally fine.
The Yawning Portal has higher level adventures. You might either do the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan (4-5 5th level characters), or White Plume Mountain (8th level), and save the Sunless Citadel for another day.
Thank you for the information, So I think I may make an adjustment by using the stat blocks for more of the CR 3 or 4 but keep the enemy's for this run.
Thank you I will look more into the White plume Mountain and maybe use the enemy basis or use elements from both adventures.
Thank you for the information.I wasn't saying Don't increase there AC and Hit points its more of what else can I do to make more challenging with this party I normally do increase ac and hit points. I did find another post that seems like maybe keep it where it is but just add two or three bigger enemy's to command the rest and give them additional abilities. Thank you for the three options I have a shopping session coming up I think I will have an encounter with a new challenging enemy and judge there reactions during and basis on conversation after the battle and explore the options above to see what they think. Thank you.
Whatever else you decide to do - Google "Tucker's kobold's." Smart monsters punch above their weight sometimes.
Thank you. You do bring excellent points to the table. I think a combination of most of the suggestions will be best left for maybe a future game. Thank you
The other thing you can do is study what higher CR monsters have to them besides AC and hit points. Some common themes in higher CR monsters (with more of these appearing as the CR increases)...
Offensive
Defensive
If you just give regular Orcs some of these, like damage resistance and multi-attack, they will punch way above their CR.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
So I really can’t stress enough that just increasing the CR won’t make this a great time for level 7’s. What is it exactly that makes you want to do sunless citadel only? If it’s just wanting an old school dungeon crawl there are others that are actually correctly levelled for your players, some within Yawning portal. This really isn’t and while you may be able to squeeze playability out of it, it’s going to be far less than you would get from one that isn’t designed as an introduction dungeon.
I have plenty of Old school type adventure modules, I have ran through two of them but reading this one kind of stood out it seemed like a good dungeon crawl which the PC's haven't experienced yet, minor puzzles, interaction with a friendly or unfriendly NPC depending on which action the players choose (which would be friendly) which they two of the players would like and a dragon which another player would like (Fighting or befriending). Sunless Citadel hit everything everyone was looking for when I was looking through the modules. If you have any other suggestions I am open I mainly read through the modules during the weekend and finish the read through out the week, I have about two sessions until they finish the current objective. They are looking for Puzzles, friendly interactions with NPC's, and Dragons. Again thank you for your input.
@BoboGaming16: Whatever you do with the monsters when you upgrade them, do yourself a favour and do NOT increase the quantity significantly, or at all. You will find a cluttered field a serious pain when trying to go through the Initiative cycle.
I have learned that lesson.
There are some great suggestions here. Might I also say that giving some of the Orcs Pack Tactics (instead of their movement boost feature) and a few leader Orcs the ability to boost damage of nearby Orcs (similar to the Hobgoblin commander ability) would be flavorful and quite a power boost? Also, adding a few archers with homebrew tower shields w/ arrow slits for 3/4 cover would add some tactical challenges for the party as well.
Some useful advice here.
Another route you might want to explore depends on the appetite for "puzzles, interaction and Dragons". If there is an overarching narrative reason for the characters to find out things rather than just kill them some of the overpowered/underpowered issues lesson. Consider US style "shock and awe" destroying rooms full of potential intelligence sources. Uncertainty over when and how to use their excessive power introduces a challenge and the need to think. Dragons are known for their guile as well as being tough beasts... a sinister plotter may need their plans to be understand and unravelled rather than just killing everything in sight. And the Dragon can make a rewarding Boss fight that is earned through solving the mysteries
Levels are less important when you have to persuade the powerless peasant/orc to help you. It's a very different style of play but there are lots of useful guides around (including how to do interrogations in a more entertaining way!)
In the end you're going to need to do some pretty substantial redesign, particularly for the early parts of the module (level 1->level 7 is a lot more significant than level 3->level 9, and with the way xp works, they might actually only level up to 8).
To convert a level 1 encounter to level 7, you have to multiply the encounter budget by 15. This typically either means six times as many monsters (ugh....) or much higher CR. Level 2->8 is 9x, level 3-7 is 7x. To directly swap out monsters:
I want to understand this but I'm failing.
I'm trying to understand because I'm planning on running Sunless Citidal myself for my 4 players who have 4th level characters. Right now I've increased the number of monsters per encounter but after reading this thread I see that might not be the best solution. What I've read in your post I feel like could really help me out with my overall goal to upscale the encounters.
I have an example from the adventure
"Creatures. The three goblin assigned to watch the room spend some of their time shooting at the hair-and-fur-filled burlap dummies that look vaguely like humans and elves. The rest of the time they drink too much goblin wine."
So these 1/4 goblins I would need to upscale, looking at Bugbears, to a better CR creature. Or I assume that is what you were trying to say.
If you would be willing, can you explain this again, like how you are getting your multiplication or X values? Thanks.
Yes, that is what he is trying to say. You would need to find a reasonable CR 3 monster like the Bugbear Chief or a Yuan-Ti Malison to crib from and use their stats for the goblins. That is, if you want the fight with your party to be equivalent to what that fight would have been for a party of level 1s.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.