I have been thinking. I am starting a campaign in a bit of time and there are several new players in my group who have never played at all. They all wrote the backstories of their characters and all is good.
I don't want to start with a typical tavern scenario or "you all have been summoned by X" etc.
So I am writing them introductions - some narrative they can read that places them where they need to be. It goes like this:
Player A is a mage who is a friend with a quest giver. They meet for breakfast and the quest giver sends player A to another location so that he can investigate a personal matter for him and a mystery.
Player B is a rogue who is doing work for hire and has botched a job. He gets told to lay low while the job is investigated and then meets his contact - the same person who is friends with Player A - to learn that all is good because the intel was faulty and the job was harder than anticipated. The rate gets tripled and he can still finish the job but he will need support. Meanwhile the contact learns more info about the Player's B target and learns that the target has been seen outside the city where Player A is going. He urges Player B to take support and go and help Player A because Player A doesn't know what he is getting into.
Player B then meets with two additional players as support and together they go after the target and to help Player A.
In the first session they are supposed to meet on the road with players B,C,D meeting player A and explaining to him that they are here because they have been sent to help him and get him out of potential trouble.
Now my question would be this - is it acceptable to put them in the same place by virtue of writing that "they agreed to go together and went on to save Player A and help with the mystery and take out the target" or is it too much assuming in character introduction?
The longer I think about it the less happy I am with leading them that much before they even start interacting. I have a total of 6 players but I don't want them to just appear from 6 sides of the world in the same place and meet for the first time like that, so I wanted a bit of "narrative grouping". And then the railroading thoughts hit me.
Also, don't be afraid of having that introduction railroad a bit. There is a general agreement in games like this that people are going to get together and go an adventure, so feel free to have them meet up wherever. You can give them the final say of "yes, let's do this together", but some things can be assumed... or why is that character there for that game in the first place? If you or them want a reason, tell the players to give you a reason why they are together and just say that's the reason why.
"Hey Player B, want to come with me and Player D to meet Player A?"
"No"
DM: OK, Player B leaves. Now go make a new character that wants to join them.
Also, don't be afraid of having that introduction railroad a bit. There is a general agreement in games like this that people are going to get together and go an adventure, so feel free to have them meet up wherever. You can give them the final say of "yes, let's do this together", but some things can be assumed... or why is that character there for that game in the first place? If you or them want a reason, tell the players to give you a reason why they are together and just say that's the reason why.
"Hey Player B, want to come with me and Player D to meet Player A?"
"No"
DM: OK, Player B leaves. Now go make a new character that wants to join them.
To be fair, I am not really worried that they will object to this kind of narrative railroad pre-meeting (some of them might even prefer it seeing as they have never played before). It's more like...how to put it - self realization? It's not the first time I am DMing but definitely the first time when I wanted to make something more elaborate and I was worried that in the process I kind of betrayed the "good DM principles" :)
So, simple way of doing it? Talk to your players about pairing people together, maybe they met up on a last job, or such.
Maybe they've known one another for years, or used to be close, and have just met up.
It could be 2 or more players like that, for why x y and z would be with one another. But that's something you'd need to work with your players with.
There's also the option of them starting in jail (cliché? Yes.) But it's cliché for a reason, it works.
I guess if I can put them in jail without worries, I can put them on the road with the premise that some of them met few days before to embark on a journey :D
Though I promised myself that I will avoid jailing at all costs, I've seen horrible things happen to other groups with that :D
Fair enough! If that's what you're looking for then I would suggest the last part of my idea there. Let the players determine before the first session why they are gathered there together. As Inumiru suggested, the pairing off or existing knowledge of each other can work well. Then all you need to do is either play that out or narrate it in some way. Give them the setting and ultimate goal (or at least the goal they are allowed to know about) and where they will be meeting.
And as Warranto said, they're on an adventure, let them figure out why they're together if you want. But let them know, if they can't think of a reason of why are you helping these strangers, or why are you going on an adventure with them. It's time to make a new character.
If their character is going to fight over everything, or they don't want to do x y or z, bye. Either that player, or that character has to go. (though technically if the player goes, the character goes as well.)
One thing my main DM has said to our group. Find a reason for why you're going with the group.
I guess I can pose them a question whether they want to decide themselves how they met and know each other or whether they want to leave it to me and then my conscience will be clear (as I am 99% sure that they will want to leave it to me :))
I guess I can pose them a question whether they want to decide themselves how they met and know each other or whether they want to leave it to me and then my conscience will be clear (as I am 99% sure that they will want to leave it to me :))
That's always a good rule of thumb. Ask the players what they want.
So start in the middle. You can always cover the how the met backstory in flashback later. If you think it will be a timesuck for your players, extra work for you and not the best way to start off then don’t...start with something fun.
So start in the middle. You can always cover the how the met backstory in flashback later. If you think it will be a timesuck for your players, extra work for you and not the best way to start off then don’t...start with something fun.
Or a variation, start in the middle and have the players collaborate later how they met, and why they stick together.
I usually preface my groups with: you are adventurers and you work together, please create your characters collaboratively with that in mind.
During the peak of social distance lock-down I killed time by inventing my own D&D setting with its own weird rules and nuances, and I started writing the first few 'chapters' of what I imagined the campaign would be inside this new world I made. I wanted it to be much more character driven than the last game my group played (LMoP), and I wanted each player to harbor a set of meaningful secrets from the others, so with their permission I wrote their characters backstories for them.
I was pretty conflicted about it for a while, since I worried that I had just railroaded them all pretty hard before we'd even got out of the gate, but fifteen sessions in so far, and it's been a smooth well flowing game so far, and everyone has taken what I gave them and really done a good job of making them their own. While I don't think I'll do that again, giving my players a very clear understanding of what their place is in the narrative I had planned really helped our game get off on the right foot.
To go back to your question, while I understand why others might disagree, I personally don't think it's a problem in giving your players a firm bearing to who (and where) their characters are at the start of a game. I agree it's a little 'rail-road-ish', but honestly, unless you've come to the table with absolutely nothing other than the plan to improvise on the fly, you've already got something in mind for them regardless. Just be clear about why you're telling them whats happened to them before you start, and hopefully they understand and appreciate it.
I think a heavy dose of guidance for how the PCs meet is both natural and inevitable. If you just let people make whatever characters there's a good chance they'd NEVER meet naturally - and wouldn't get along if they did. So the first meeting has to be forced - tell people to make characters that would accept a particular quest, or who would be in a particular location, and so on.
Turns out I have been worried for naught. When posed with the question whether they want to tell me how their characters met or want me to include that in the narrative introductions, all concerned couldn't write fast enough that they would like me to write it :D
Turns out I have been worried for naught. When posed with the question whether they want to tell me how their characters met or want me to include that in the narrative introductions, all concerned couldn't write fast enough that they would like me to write it :D
Glad you got that figured out. Cause I had different things in mind.
Player a at breakfast with his mission giver was the target for player b. The target has on it's person something the guild would like to have. But player b couldn't go through with it because he knows player a. So it's a botched job.
Then player b learns of why player a is going on their quest and wondering why they were sent to steal from player a friend. Something is missing from the info player b has. Might want to dig in further.
Players c,d are not mentioned in your story so can't add in for them.
You have to start somewhere. Somehow or other, you have to get the characters into the same place at the same time. Doing so is not railroading -- it's starting the campaign or starting the adventure. The railroading, which honestly has turned into the new "four letter word" of the RPG hobby and IMO is wildly overused, happens afterwards, when you force the players to go from the starting point (the setup) to exactly where you want without them being able to make their own decisions. The railroading happens when you wrote an adventure in which the player characters WILL rescue the princess from the dragon, and they will do it by going into this cave, following this route, and killing these monsters, in this order. That's a railroad.
But just telling each character what his or her reason is for being in the town or in the starting scene, is not a railroad. It's the starting scene.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I think its fine to railroad new players for a while. Just listen to them so you can make any adjustments as the game progresses. They are likely to come up with some ideas that can offer some incite as to what they want to do. Use it to make the game feel more naturally flowing.
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I have been thinking. I am starting a campaign in a bit of time and there are several new players in my group who have never played at all. They all wrote the backstories of their characters and all is good.
I don't want to start with a typical tavern scenario or "you all have been summoned by X" etc.
So I am writing them introductions - some narrative they can read that places them where they need to be. It goes like this:
Player A is a mage who is a friend with a quest giver. They meet for breakfast and the quest giver sends player A to another location so that he can investigate a personal matter for him and a mystery.
Player B is a rogue who is doing work for hire and has botched a job. He gets told to lay low while the job is investigated and then meets his contact - the same person who is friends with Player A - to learn that all is good because the intel was faulty and the job was harder than anticipated. The rate gets tripled and he can still finish the job but he will need support. Meanwhile the contact learns more info about the Player's B target and learns that the target has been seen outside the city where Player A is going. He urges Player B to take support and go and help Player A because Player A doesn't know what he is getting into.
Player B then meets with two additional players as support and together they go after the target and to help Player A.
In the first session they are supposed to meet on the road with players B,C,D meeting player A and explaining to him that they are here because they have been sent to help him and get him out of potential trouble.
Now my question would be this - is it acceptable to put them in the same place by virtue of writing that "they agreed to go together and went on to save Player A and help with the mystery and take out the target" or is it too much assuming in character introduction?
The longer I think about it the less happy I am with leading them that much before they even start interacting. I have a total of 6 players but I don't want them to just appear from 6 sides of the world in the same place and meet for the first time like that, so I wanted a bit of "narrative grouping". And then the railroading thoughts hit me.
Thoughts?
So, simple way of doing it? Talk to your players about pairing people together, maybe they met up on a last job, or such.
Maybe they've known one another for years, or used to be close, and have just met up.
It could be 2 or more players like that, for why x y and z would be with one another. But that's something you'd need to work with your players with.
There's also the option of them starting in jail (cliché? Yes.) But it's cliché for a reason, it works.
Also, don't be afraid of having that introduction railroad a bit. There is a general agreement in games like this that people are going to get together and go an adventure, so feel free to have them meet up wherever. You can give them the final say of "yes, let's do this together", but some things can be assumed... or why is that character there for that game in the first place? If you or them want a reason, tell the players to give you a reason why they are together and just say that's the reason why.
"Hey Player B, want to come with me and Player D to meet Player A?"
"No"
DM: OK, Player B leaves. Now go make a new character that wants to join them.
To be fair, I am not really worried that they will object to this kind of narrative railroad pre-meeting (some of them might even prefer it seeing as they have never played before). It's more like...how to put it - self realization? It's not the first time I am DMing but definitely the first time when I wanted to make something more elaborate and I was worried that in the process I kind of betrayed the "good DM principles" :)
I guess if I can put them in jail without worries, I can put them on the road with the premise that some of them met few days before to embark on a journey :D
Though I promised myself that I will avoid jailing at all costs, I've seen horrible things happen to other groups with that :D
Fair enough! If that's what you're looking for then I would suggest the last part of my idea there. Let the players determine before the first session why they are gathered there together. As Inumiru suggested, the pairing off or existing knowledge of each other can work well. Then all you need to do is either play that out or narrate it in some way. Give them the setting and ultimate goal (or at least the goal they are allowed to know about) and where they will be meeting.
And as Warranto said, they're on an adventure, let them figure out why they're together if you want. But let them know, if they can't think of a reason of why are you helping these strangers, or why are you going on an adventure with them. It's time to make a new character.
If their character is going to fight over everything, or they don't want to do x y or z, bye. Either that player, or that character has to go. (though technically if the player goes, the character goes as well.)
One thing my main DM has said to our group. Find a reason for why you're going with the group.
I guess I can pose them a question whether they want to decide themselves how they met and know each other or whether they want to leave it to me and then my conscience will be clear (as I am 99% sure that they will want to leave it to me :))
That's always a good rule of thumb. Ask the players what they want.
So start in the middle. You can always cover the how the met backstory in flashback later. If you think it will be a timesuck for your players, extra work for you and not the best way to start off then don’t...start with something fun.
Or a variation, start in the middle and have the players collaborate later how they met, and why they stick together.
I usually preface my groups with: you are adventurers and you work together, please create your characters collaboratively with that in mind.
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During the peak of social distance lock-down I killed time by inventing my own D&D setting with its own weird rules and nuances, and I started writing the first few 'chapters' of what I imagined the campaign would be inside this new world I made. I wanted it to be much more character driven than the last game my group played (LMoP), and I wanted each player to harbor a set of meaningful secrets from the others, so with their permission I wrote their characters backstories for them.
I was pretty conflicted about it for a while, since I worried that I had just railroaded them all pretty hard before we'd even got out of the gate, but fifteen sessions in so far, and it's been a smooth well flowing game so far, and everyone has taken what I gave them and really done a good job of making them their own. While I don't think I'll do that again, giving my players a very clear understanding of what their place is in the narrative I had planned really helped our game get off on the right foot.
To go back to your question, while I understand why others might disagree, I personally don't think it's a problem in giving your players a firm bearing to who (and where) their characters are at the start of a game. I agree it's a little 'rail-road-ish', but honestly, unless you've come to the table with absolutely nothing other than the plan to improvise on the fly, you've already got something in mind for them regardless. Just be clear about why you're telling them whats happened to them before you start, and hopefully they understand and appreciate it.
I think a heavy dose of guidance for how the PCs meet is both natural and inevitable. If you just let people make whatever characters there's a good chance they'd NEVER meet naturally - and wouldn't get along if they did. So the first meeting has to be forced - tell people to make characters that would accept a particular quest, or who would be in a particular location, and so on.
Turns out I have been worried for naught. When posed with the question whether they want to tell me how their characters met or want me to include that in the narrative introductions, all concerned couldn't write fast enough that they would like me to write it :D
Glad you got that figured out. Cause I had different things in mind.
Player a at breakfast with his mission giver was the target for player b. The target has on it's person something the guild would like to have. But player b couldn't go through with it because he knows player a. So it's a botched job.
Then player b learns of why player a is going on their quest and wondering why they were sent to steal from player a friend. Something is missing from the info player b has. Might want to dig in further.
Players c,d are not mentioned in your story so can't add in for them.
You have to start somewhere. Somehow or other, you have to get the characters into the same place at the same time. Doing so is not railroading -- it's starting the campaign or starting the adventure. The railroading, which honestly has turned into the new "four letter word" of the RPG hobby and IMO is wildly overused, happens afterwards, when you force the players to go from the starting point (the setup) to exactly where you want without them being able to make their own decisions. The railroading happens when you wrote an adventure in which the player characters WILL rescue the princess from the dragon, and they will do it by going into this cave, following this route, and killing these monsters, in this order. That's a railroad.
But just telling each character what his or her reason is for being in the town or in the starting scene, is not a railroad. It's the starting scene.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I think its fine to railroad new players for a while. Just listen to them so you can make any adjustments as the game progresses. They are likely to come up with some ideas that can offer some incite as to what they want to do. Use it to make the game feel more naturally flowing.