So, my group got through the redbrands hideout, and now they are getting a tad cocky, thanks to some really good rolls and baddies that nat 1’d several times. Other than the cockiness, it’s a good group, a nice blend of skills, and all first time players (along with this first time DM). They are now gung-ho about visiting ThunderTree due to the promise of treasure from the woodworker’s wife. I know there is a dragon there that will eat them for breakfast at level 3. Several townsfolk have heavily hinted the party visit the gnomes or banshees, but for some reason, they want to go to ThunderTree (I never mentioned the dragon or zombies - just the wife’s family heirloom). Should they be adamant about taking it on and TPK, I was wondering what the harm is for having the Cleric of the Lucky Shrine use Word of Recall and revive them all, with a condition that it can only happen once? (Explaining that she was scrying on them When she heard they were heading to ThunderTree).
I feel this may be an excellent role play opportunity compared to just rolling new characters, since it’ll be their first defeat. I realize it’s a little videogame-ish, but again, it’d be a single use “mulligan” with repercussions (the dragon would now also instantly recognize them should they be stupid enough to go back).
at first, i would suggest that the druid npc is very adamant about they will die if they try to fight the dragon head-on. then, if they do enter combat, in the first round, keep it out of melee, flying, and use the breath weapon to hit as many pcs as possible. as an aside, normally, i would suggest to never fudge dice rolls, but in this case, fudge the damage so you don't outright kill any characters, but if they fall unconcious it's fine. hopefully, the Very Large amount of damage will scare them to be more cautious in the future, while not killing their very first characters this early in the adventure. green dragons (like venomfang) are supposed to be very manipulative! maybe under the threat of their lives, they have to bring treasure or tribute to the dragon. become indentured, indebted, etc.
if you want it to just be a straight fighting encounter that's more balanced for lvl 3, i personally modified a red dragon wyrmling to have green dragon characteristics, and added 10 hp to it.
again, these are just suggestions! hopefully this helps!
Why would they even fight the dragon there? When I played LMoP the first time we didn't. I think the dragon is definitely supposed to be way out of the league of an adventuring party that goes there. Do they have a reason to try fighting it?
Why would they even fight the dragon there? When I played LMoP the first time we didn't. I think the dragon is definitely supposed to be way out of the league of an adventuring party that goes there. Do they have a reason to try fighting it?
They’d fight the dragon there because that’s the whole point of that area. WotC was like... “we got several dungeons... um... we need a dragon otherwise we can’t have the box art!” The reason they’d fight it is because they’ve been REALLY lucky with rolls in previous battles so they have quite the false sense of security. I just want to take ‘em down a peg or two, but don’t want to completely demoralize them either... hence the “training wheels”.
I put in a mimic earlier and that “cured them” of their Diablo-like bulldozering through areas. Now they are tentative towards items in the environment and inspect them rather than just grab and go. Was thinking Venomfang could be a similar tough-love moment, as well as encouragement for role play. It’s just family & friends, not some table at a comicbook shop, so I’ll probably do it anyway, I just wanted a gauge of how others deal with PC death & first time players and DM.
As far as the plot of the module goes, one of the pre-written characters in the LMoP starter kit has backstory in that town related to the dragon, and is motivated to slay it. Though you might not be using those sheets (my group did, but I don't think anyone remembered their backstories after the 5th session), I'd consider that some prelude towards there being a dragon to fight. As you say though, it's extremely difficult to telegraph to your group how difficult a fight is going to be. Simply having NPC's tell them it's dangerous can often only make them think they'll only be the more heroic when they return.
There is a druid NPC in Thundertree who they are likely to encounter before the dragon, who you can use to either give them one last warning before they set off to engage it, or run in to save their hides in the last minute. Also, the adventure as written clearly states that the dragon will fly away and give it's next up when they players reduce its health to half, so there is that too.
None of this answers your question of how to handle low level player death, though. When I ran this encounter at player level 4, they got absolutely smoked by the dragon, and after two of the players went down I thought that I was well on my way to our first TPK, which I didn't know how to handle. What I did was stop the fight by having the dragon speak to them, saying that it would let them take their fallen friends if they left Thundertree and never returned. Once they returned to the town they found a cleric who for a heavy fee resurrected their party members. Had my players fought on and wiped, I might have asked if they wanted to roll new ones, or wake up in the druids ruined cottage, and in his debt.
Play the fight out to TPK. Let them worry about it for an acceptable period of time.
Then they awaken in the dragon's roost. It had turned out that the dragon was not attacking to kill, merely to debilitate and render them unconscious. This is a learning moment to also teach them about dealing non-lethal damage with their attacks as well. Tell them you didn't announce it before attacks as the DM because it would've ruined the immersion of the fight.
Then have the dragon tell them how they work for him now and give them tons of gopher quests to work for the dragon, or they can cut and leave Thundertree. Either way there will always be the threat of a Green Dragon if they start slipping again.
I'd say it's best to treat it more like a social interaction rather than a battle. The dragon is a perfectly intelligent creature that could simply hold a conversation with them, maybe make a bargain of some kind. As much as overconfident players will want to just steamroll the first dragon they come across, they'd probably be even more excited to gain a dragon ally of some kind.
Isn't there an old Druid in Thundertree? Maybe he could stabilize them after they get KOed, assuming they don't just get insta-killed. That's less video-gamey, but they still understand the consequences of their actions. I'm all for character death being a reality—one of my players died in the very first game she played with us—but I understand a full TPK can be tough. I've had some people struggle with their first character death, but since then they've come to realize that the threat is part of what makes the game fun, and death is supposed to suck.
Isn't there an old Druid in Thundertree? Maybe he could stabilize them after they get KOed, assuming they don't just get insta-killed. That's less video-gamey, but they still understand the consequences of their actions. I'm all for character death being a reality—one of my players died in the very first game she played with us—but I understand a full TPK can be tough. I've had some people struggle with their first character death, but since then they've come to realize that the threat is part of what makes the game fun, and death is supposed to suck.
I thought about that too, but honestly the group has a better connection with the cleric at the Shrine of Luck. The redbrand streets of Phandalin encounter happened outside of the shrine, with the group saving the cleric from the thugs. She owes them a debt for preventing her from being kidnapped and sold. The Druid doesn’t know them yet, and I’m not sure what their connection will be. I dunno. I’ll just wing it, I guess. Who knows, they might chicken out and not even go for the dragon, but I doubt that.
I'd say it's best to treat it more like a social interaction rather than a battle. The dragon is a perfectly intelligent creature that could simply hold a conversation with them, maybe make a bargain of some kind. As much as overconfident players will want to just steamroll the first dragon they come across, they'd probably be even more excited to gain a dragon ally of some kind.
The dragon being intelligent is it’s problem. Lol players are the “stab first, interrogate the corpse” types. He’ll end up boiling them all in acid. One is a very chivalrous bard out to make the Sword Coast great again, and another is a Paladin sworn to valor... neither seem the type to make deals with evil reptiles.
The dragon being intelligent is it’s problem. Lol players are the “stab first, interrogate the corpse” types. He’ll end up boiling them all in acid. One is a very chivalrous bard out to make the Sword Coast great again, and another is a Paladin sworn to valor... neither seem the type to make deals with evil reptiles.
Well that's the problem right there... if they go in thinking "Evil Reptile", that's something you can control as the DM. Here's how I would mitigate that problem...
When the party arrives, the Dragon is having a meeting with someone else. If they rush in blindly they'd see the dragon having a conversation, maybe annoyed at being interrupted, but the presence of a seemingly innocent person should, hopefully, get them to slow down enough to at least hold a conversation. If they sneak up, they'll be able to listen in and hear that the dragon is a reasonable, if over-confident being. It prevents them from seeing the dragon as simply a "monster" that they should eliminate for that sweet, sweet XP. They might still choose to bum-rush the dragon, and if they've been given that much context and still choose to battle, well... that's their choice and I'd vote to let them deal with the repercussions of that.
I think the tricky part is trying to balance that without just doing that whole subversive, "actually, the bad dragons are good and just misunderstood". I don't think that's a bad thing, necessarily, but honestly I feel like D&D, and most combat-focused RPGs in general, benefit from not saying that the players should be forced to wrestle with the moral ambiguity of making absolutely certain that every single creature they enter combat with is "evil" enough to justify fighting them instead of trying to enter into a diplomatic interaction with every Bugbear that tries to ambush them. So in this situation, I'd definitely make sure that the dragon is still a "villain" that the players will have to deal with... eventually. But it would be good for you to set it up that working with the dragon is logical and rewarding early on, but maybe Venomfang would betray them later and that would be the most fun and interesting time for them to fight him... which is helped by the fact that they actually stand a chance against him at that point. There's actually some good equipment in Wave Echo Cave that would specifically be useful in fighting a dragon, so if you can delay the fight at least until they finish that your players will be rewarded greatly.
Although honestly... on some deep level... I really want to tell you to just let your players throw themselves at the dragon and die, then force them to create new characters. But at that point you'd either have to reboot the whole game and just say that these New Characters are going through the exact same thing the original characters went through to use the content of the book you purchased, or you need to do a lot of homebrewing to explain why these new characters find themselves in the same situation.
My party took out the dragon at lvl 3, there were 5 of us, EK Fighter, Vengeance Paly, Bear totem Barbar, a druid and myself playing a Celestial Warlock. It really was touch and go even though we are all experienced players and used good tactics. One of the guys went down to 1 point off auto death, but we managed it, a combination of some lucky rolls on our part and unlucky rolls by the GM helped us a lot.
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So, my group got through the redbrands hideout, and now they are getting a tad cocky, thanks to some really good rolls and baddies that nat 1’d several times. Other than the cockiness, it’s a good group, a nice blend of skills, and all first time players (along with this first time DM). They are now gung-ho about visiting ThunderTree due to the promise of treasure from the woodworker’s wife. I know there is a dragon there that will eat them for breakfast at level 3. Several townsfolk have heavily hinted the party visit the gnomes or banshees, but for some reason, they want to go to ThunderTree (I never mentioned the dragon or zombies - just the wife’s family heirloom). Should they be adamant about taking it on and TPK, I was wondering what the harm is for having the Cleric of the Lucky Shrine use Word of Recall and revive them all, with a condition that it can only happen once? (Explaining that she was scrying on them When she heard they were heading to ThunderTree).
I feel this may be an excellent role play opportunity compared to just rolling new characters, since it’ll be their first defeat. I realize it’s a little videogame-ish, but again, it’d be a single use “mulligan” with repercussions (the dragon would now also instantly recognize them should they be stupid enough to go back).
If you want, you can make the dragon run away at half health, so they still get the feeling of victory, but they don't have to face it the whole time
at first, i would suggest that the druid npc is very adamant about they will die if they try to fight the dragon head-on. then, if they do enter combat, in the first round, keep it out of melee, flying, and use the breath weapon to hit as many pcs as possible. as an aside, normally, i would suggest to never fudge dice rolls, but in this case, fudge the damage so you don't outright kill any characters, but if they fall unconcious it's fine. hopefully, the Very Large amount of damage will scare them to be more cautious in the future, while not killing their very first characters this early in the adventure. green dragons (like venomfang) are supposed to be very manipulative! maybe under the threat of their lives, they have to bring treasure or tribute to the dragon. become indentured, indebted, etc.
if you want it to just be a straight fighting encounter that's more balanced for lvl 3, i personally modified a red dragon wyrmling to have green dragon characteristics, and added 10 hp to it.
again, these are just suggestions! hopefully this helps!
Why would they even fight the dragon there? When I played LMoP the first time we didn't. I think the dragon is definitely supposed to be way out of the league of an adventuring party that goes there. Do they have a reason to try fighting it?
I think this is a question for every session 0.
They’d fight the dragon there because that’s the whole point of that area. WotC was like... “we got several dungeons... um... we need a dragon otherwise we can’t have the box art!” The reason they’d fight it is because they’ve been REALLY lucky with rolls in previous battles so they have quite the false sense of security. I just want to take ‘em down a peg or two, but don’t want to completely demoralize them either... hence the “training wheels”.
I put in a mimic earlier and that “cured them” of their Diablo-like bulldozering through areas. Now they are tentative towards items in the environment and inspect them rather than just grab and go. Was thinking Venomfang could be a similar tough-love moment, as well as encouragement for role play. It’s just family & friends, not some table at a comicbook shop, so I’ll probably do it anyway, I just wanted a gauge of how others deal with PC death & first time players and DM.
As far as the plot of the module goes, one of the pre-written characters in the LMoP starter kit has backstory in that town related to the dragon, and is motivated to slay it. Though you might not be using those sheets (my group did, but I don't think anyone remembered their backstories after the 5th session), I'd consider that some prelude towards there being a dragon to fight. As you say though, it's extremely difficult to telegraph to your group how difficult a fight is going to be. Simply having NPC's tell them it's dangerous can often only make them think they'll only be the more heroic when they return.
There is a druid NPC in Thundertree who they are likely to encounter before the dragon, who you can use to either give them one last warning before they set off to engage it, or run in to save their hides in the last minute. Also, the adventure as written clearly states that the dragon will fly away and give it's next up when they players reduce its health to half, so there is that too.
None of this answers your question of how to handle low level player death, though. When I ran this encounter at player level 4, they got absolutely smoked by the dragon, and after two of the players went down I thought that I was well on my way to our first TPK, which I didn't know how to handle. What I did was stop the fight by having the dragon speak to them, saying that it would let them take their fallen friends if they left Thundertree and never returned. Once they returned to the town they found a cleric who for a heavy fee resurrected their party members. Had my players fought on and wiped, I might have asked if they wanted to roll new ones, or wake up in the druids ruined cottage, and in his debt.
Play the fight out to TPK. Let them worry about it for an acceptable period of time.
Then they awaken in the dragon's roost. It had turned out that the dragon was not attacking to kill, merely to debilitate and render them unconscious. This is a learning moment to also teach them about dealing non-lethal damage with their attacks as well. Tell them you didn't announce it before attacks as the DM because it would've ruined the immersion of the fight.
Then have the dragon tell them how they work for him now and give them tons of gopher quests to work for the dragon, or they can cut and leave Thundertree. Either way there will always be the threat of a Green Dragon if they start slipping again.
I'd say it's best to treat it more like a social interaction rather than a battle. The dragon is a perfectly intelligent creature that could simply hold a conversation with them, maybe make a bargain of some kind. As much as overconfident players will want to just steamroll the first dragon they come across, they'd probably be even more excited to gain a dragon ally of some kind.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
Isn't there an old Druid in Thundertree? Maybe he could stabilize them after they get KOed, assuming they don't just get insta-killed. That's less video-gamey, but they still understand the consequences of their actions. I'm all for character death being a reality—one of my players died in the very first game she played with us—but I understand a full TPK can be tough. I've had some people struggle with their first character death, but since then they've come to realize that the threat is part of what makes the game fun, and death is supposed to suck.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
I thought about that too, but honestly the group has a better connection with the cleric at the Shrine of Luck. The redbrand streets of Phandalin encounter happened outside of the shrine, with the group saving the cleric from the thugs. She owes them a debt for preventing her from being kidnapped and sold. The Druid doesn’t know them yet, and I’m not sure what their connection will be. I dunno. I’ll just wing it, I guess. Who knows, they might chicken out and not even go for the dragon, but I doubt that.
The dragon being intelligent is it’s problem. Lol players are the “stab first, interrogate the corpse” types. He’ll end up boiling them all in acid. One is a very chivalrous bard out to make the Sword Coast great again, and another is a Paladin sworn to valor... neither seem the type to make deals with evil reptiles.
Well that's the problem right there... if they go in thinking "Evil Reptile", that's something you can control as the DM. Here's how I would mitigate that problem...
When the party arrives, the Dragon is having a meeting with someone else. If they rush in blindly they'd see the dragon having a conversation, maybe annoyed at being interrupted, but the presence of a seemingly innocent person should, hopefully, get them to slow down enough to at least hold a conversation. If they sneak up, they'll be able to listen in and hear that the dragon is a reasonable, if over-confident being. It prevents them from seeing the dragon as simply a "monster" that they should eliminate for that sweet, sweet XP. They might still choose to bum-rush the dragon, and if they've been given that much context and still choose to battle, well... that's their choice and I'd vote to let them deal with the repercussions of that.
I think the tricky part is trying to balance that without just doing that whole subversive, "actually, the bad dragons are good and just misunderstood". I don't think that's a bad thing, necessarily, but honestly I feel like D&D, and most combat-focused RPGs in general, benefit from not saying that the players should be forced to wrestle with the moral ambiguity of making absolutely certain that every single creature they enter combat with is "evil" enough to justify fighting them instead of trying to enter into a diplomatic interaction with every Bugbear that tries to ambush them. So in this situation, I'd definitely make sure that the dragon is still a "villain" that the players will have to deal with... eventually. But it would be good for you to set it up that working with the dragon is logical and rewarding early on, but maybe Venomfang would betray them later and that would be the most fun and interesting time for them to fight him... which is helped by the fact that they actually stand a chance against him at that point. There's actually some good equipment in Wave Echo Cave that would specifically be useful in fighting a dragon, so if you can delay the fight at least until they finish that your players will be rewarded greatly.
Although honestly... on some deep level... I really want to tell you to just let your players throw themselves at the dragon and die, then force them to create new characters. But at that point you'd either have to reboot the whole game and just say that these New Characters are going through the exact same thing the original characters went through to use the content of the book you purchased, or you need to do a lot of homebrewing to explain why these new characters find themselves in the same situation.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
My party took out the dragon at lvl 3, there were 5 of us, EK Fighter, Vengeance Paly, Bear totem Barbar, a druid and myself playing a Celestial Warlock. It really was touch and go even though we are all experienced players and used good tactics. One of the guys went down to 1 point off auto death, but we managed it, a combination of some lucky rolls on our part and unlucky rolls by the GM helped us a lot.