Hello! I am going to DM Rime of the Frostmaiden.. we only have 3 PCs, but the adventure is written for 4-6.
I know a typical way of handling this is to modify the encounters. Another way is to provide help, in the form of henchmen, DMPCs/NPCs, etc.
I was wondering what people thought about the alternative of letting the PCs start out somewhat OP.
The reason I started thinking along these lines: one player wants to be a variant human Gloom Stalker, and they were looking forward picking a skill and a feat. Then I had them randomly pick from the RotFM's secrets, and they picked the Doppelganger secret. I think that's a great secret to go with the Gloom Stalker class. But the player doesn't want to go for it because it means not being a human, and thus not getting the skill and feat.
So I'm considering allowing the player to remain a variant human, with all its advantages, and get the Doppelganger capabilities described on the secret card: dark vision, detect thoughts, and polymorph.
This will make for a really, really cool character! But it will of course be OP. But maybe that's okay, since they're going to be taking on a 4-player adventure with 3 players? I was thinking I might allow the other players to be somewhat OP as well... in a way that's similarly narrative-driven and fun.
As the DM, you'll be making lots of choices throughout the adventure. Letting the players be more powerful to offset a smaller party is perfectly acceptable, however you should be mindful of not giving them early access to anything that might later trivialize important story elements. For example, increased movement speed or significantly enhanced senses could let the players avoid something that was meant to be climactic. If the end result of your enhancements don't make the party more powerful than an equivalent team of 4-6, then it shouldn't be a problem.
An alternative would be to let your players control a couple of sidekick characters to fill in the missing roles.
If you have any doubts, build in a contingency. Give your players something that you have reasonable control over, like a magic weapon that needs to be recharged, or give them a single "get out of TPK free" resource, so that they can safely struggle with the harder encounters, but have a chance to fail and learn from the experience. That would give you a window of time to test them in the field, and see how much support they actually need.
Whenever you give players something you are worried might be too powerful, it always helps to add in a flaw or two to balance it out. You can determine how frequently it comes into play, and how severe the consequences might become.
I think of all the campaigns to be OP RotFM is probably not the right choice. It’s about survival, tough choices, only just making it through.
if you start OP you are taking away one of the key factors of playing RotFM to begin with.
if they don’t doppelgänger roll another secret. You are the DM it doesn’t matter how cool you think an idea is, if the player doesn’t like it you can’t force them to play it.
To be clear, the player really loves this idea and wants to play it. They're torn between that and being a variant human though.
What I was trying to ask was whether it's reasonable to OP three characters to make up for the fact that the adventure was designed for 4-6. Ideally, the party wouldn't be OP then, relative to the adventure. Ideally they'd be just right.
In fact, my understanding is that because of the action economy stuff, 3 characters are at a bigger disadvantage compared to 4 than you might think, so maybe OPing the characters has less of an overall effect compared to giving them more attacks per round (with sidekicks or NPCs)?
I could be thinking through some of this stuff incorrectly, as I'm very inexperienced. Thanks all for your help so far.
The problem you'll have for overpowered PCs is that things like environmental threats will be too easy, but it takes a pretty large boost in fighting power to make three able to manage fights tuned for five.
To be clear, the player really loves this idea and wants to play it. They're torn between that and being a variant human though.
What I was trying to ask was whether it's reasonable to OP three characters to make up for the fact that the adventure was designed for 4-6. Ideally, the party wouldn't be OP then, relative to the adventure. Ideally they'd be just right.
In fact, my understanding is that because of the action economy stuff, 3 characters are at a bigger disadvantage compared to 4 than you might think, so maybe OPing the characters has less of an overall effect compared to giving them more attacks per round (with sidekicks or NPCs)?
I could be thinking through some of this stuff incorrectly, as I'm very inexperienced. Thanks all for your help so far.
Again I need to state
This Is The Wrong Adventure For This
I am playing through it (as a player) currently and the whole point is that the characters are struggling. It’s supposed to have a survival horror vibe. If you increase the power level of the players and skirt rules you remove a large part of this adventure. You would not be doing your players a favour by doing that.
Have a conversation with your players don’t decide this for them. The risk of what your doing will not effect your experience but for them could take something that is supposed to be interesting and difficult and make it a cake walk.
If the problem you are trying to fix is “this adventure is meant for 4 and I have 3” then the solution is a 4th character sheet that the players control between them. Done. But you seem really hesitant to do that. It’s your game but what you are doing will make the early game to easy and do nothing to counter the person disadvantage at high levels
Would you similarly recommend people avoid playing this adventure with 6 people? Surely there are a lot of encounters in the adventure where 4 would struggle but 6 would not?
How can an adventure be tuned for 4 to 6 characters, but be ruined by making 3 characters too strong?
I'm not doubting, I'm trying to understand how that works. What specific encounters would be spoiled, and how?
Pantagruel666 made an interesting point about weather not being as dangerous for OP characters. But for that I think I just need to be careful to OP them in the right ways. The ability to polymorph is unlikely to be an advantage in the weather, for example (and if a player found a way to make it so, good for them!). One player is already a Goliath, so that player is going to be fine in the cold.
But maybe Pantagruel666 is right that I'm unlikely to be able to OP them enough to make a difference in a fight
Indeed I am trying to avoid a fourth character sheet. I already have a lot of work to do as DM. And my players are all new, and two are young. I don't want to burden them. I want to think outside the box.
If you could just explain mechanically how three characters with extra skills/capabilities is a bad choice for this adventure, that would really help. I accept there's a good chance I'm wrong and I'm missing something, but right now you're just saying "don't do it" instead of explaining why.
For balancing combat without changing the narrative, you could give your players what amounts to Legendary Actions. Let them have an extra Action that they can take out of turn once per round.
That's WoTCs solution for action economy for BBEGs, so it makes sense to try for players as well.
Not gonna lie: I haven’t played or run Rime, but I hear it’s more of a horror game. In that case, it’s okay for the monsters to be stronger than the characters: in fact, I wouldn’t run it with 5 or 6 players for that reason. It’s okay for characters to have to die or run away (if your players are like mine and are okay with it too).
because 4 characters level together - the bonus that you give your players for balance won’t.
as such 4 characters with no extra helping hand levelling at the pace the game (that I imagine has been playtested to death before release and balanced for 4-6) levels will be consistent.
if you power up your players (assuming it’s significant enough to matter) it will effect the early game, your players will walk through encounters, they won’t feel a struggle and they won’t need make as many meaningful decisions. Which for most games not a big deal, but Rime is supposed to be a survival horror, a game type that relies on struggle, under prepared ness, meaningful decisions etc.
now this will naturally fizzle out probably by level 4 or 5 the game will of caught up with the players and for a level or two all is well.
and then when it starts to ramp up - your players are toast.
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for explaining the mechanics.
I think I'm going to heed your advice. I might do something like let this player be a half-doppelganger if they want -- maybe give them some weakened doppelganger abilities, while also giving them some disadvantages. Maybe there's a small chance they randomly change forms without wanting to, or something. This could lead to some really good story opportunities, since the adventure says if townspeople find out they're a doppleganger they will try to kill or drive them out out of fear.
I'll give the "legendary actions" idea some thought. But I'm leaning toward the tried and true fourth character sheet idea. Specifically because that gives me opportunities to work in even more story elements.
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Hello! I am going to DM Rime of the Frostmaiden.. we only have 3 PCs, but the adventure is written for 4-6.
I know a typical way of handling this is to modify the encounters. Another way is to provide help, in the form of henchmen, DMPCs/NPCs, etc.
I was wondering what people thought about the alternative of letting the PCs start out somewhat OP.
The reason I started thinking along these lines: one player wants to be a variant human Gloom Stalker, and they were looking forward picking a skill and a feat. Then I had them randomly pick from the RotFM's secrets, and they picked the Doppelganger secret. I think that's a great secret to go with the Gloom Stalker class. But the player doesn't want to go for it because it means not being a human, and thus not getting the skill and feat.
So I'm considering allowing the player to remain a variant human, with all its advantages, and get the Doppelganger capabilities described on the secret card: dark vision, detect thoughts, and polymorph.
This will make for a really, really cool character! But it will of course be OP. But maybe that's okay, since they're going to be taking on a 4-player adventure with 3 players? I was thinking I might allow the other players to be somewhat OP as well... in a way that's similarly narrative-driven and fun.
Thoughts?
As the DM, you'll be making lots of choices throughout the adventure. Letting the players be more powerful to offset a smaller party is perfectly acceptable, however you should be mindful of not giving them early access to anything that might later trivialize important story elements. For example, increased movement speed or significantly enhanced senses could let the players avoid something that was meant to be climactic. If the end result of your enhancements don't make the party more powerful than an equivalent team of 4-6, then it shouldn't be a problem.
An alternative would be to let your players control a couple of sidekick characters to fill in the missing roles.
If you have any doubts, build in a contingency. Give your players something that you have reasonable control over, like a magic weapon that needs to be recharged, or give them a single "get out of TPK free" resource, so that they can safely struggle with the harder encounters, but have a chance to fail and learn from the experience. That would give you a window of time to test them in the field, and see how much support they actually need.
Whenever you give players something you are worried might be too powerful, it always helps to add in a flaw or two to balance it out. You can determine how frequently it comes into play, and how severe the consequences might become.
I think of all the campaigns to be OP RotFM is probably not the right choice. It’s about survival, tough choices, only just making it through.
if you start OP you are taking away one of the key factors of playing RotFM to begin with.
if they don’t doppelgänger roll another secret. You are the DM it doesn’t matter how cool you think an idea is, if the player doesn’t like it you can’t force them to play it.
To be clear, the player really loves this idea and wants to play it. They're torn between that and being a variant human though.
What I was trying to ask was whether it's reasonable to OP three characters to make up for the fact that the adventure was designed for 4-6. Ideally, the party wouldn't be OP then, relative to the adventure. Ideally they'd be just right.
In fact, my understanding is that because of the action economy stuff, 3 characters are at a bigger disadvantage compared to 4 than you might think, so maybe OPing the characters has less of an overall effect compared to giving them more attacks per round (with sidekicks or NPCs)?
I could be thinking through some of this stuff incorrectly, as I'm very inexperienced. Thanks all for your help so far.
The problem you'll have for overpowered PCs is that things like environmental threats will be too easy, but it takes a pretty large boost in fighting power to make three able to manage fights tuned for five.
Again I need to state
This Is The Wrong Adventure For This
I am playing through it (as a player) currently and the whole point is that the characters are struggling. It’s supposed to have a survival horror vibe. If you increase the power level of the players and skirt rules you remove a large part of this adventure. You would not be doing your players a favour by doing that.
Have a conversation with your players don’t decide this for them. The risk of what your doing will not effect your experience but for them could take something that is supposed to be interesting and difficult and make it a cake walk.
If the problem you are trying to fix is “this adventure is meant for 4 and I have 3” then the solution is a 4th character sheet that the players control between them. Done. But you seem really hesitant to do that. It’s your game but what you are doing will make the early game to easy and do nothing to counter the person disadvantage at high levels
Would you similarly recommend people avoid playing this adventure with 6 people? Surely there are a lot of encounters in the adventure where 4 would struggle but 6 would not?
How can an adventure be tuned for 4 to 6 characters, but be ruined by making 3 characters too strong?
I'm not doubting, I'm trying to understand how that works. What specific encounters would be spoiled, and how?
Pantagruel666 made an interesting point about weather not being as dangerous for OP characters. But for that I think I just need to be careful to OP them in the right ways. The ability to polymorph is unlikely to be an advantage in the weather, for example (and if a player found a way to make it so, good for them!). One player is already a Goliath, so that player is going to be fine in the cold.
But maybe Pantagruel666 is right that I'm unlikely to be able to OP them enough to make a difference in a fight
Indeed I am trying to avoid a fourth character sheet. I already have a lot of work to do as DM. And my players are all new, and two are young. I don't want to burden them. I want to think outside the box.
If you could just explain mechanically how three characters with extra skills/capabilities is a bad choice for this adventure, that would really help. I accept there's a good chance I'm wrong and I'm missing something, but right now you're just saying "don't do it" instead of explaining why.
For balancing combat without changing the narrative, you could give your players what amounts to Legendary Actions. Let them have an extra Action that they can take out of turn once per round.
That's WoTCs solution for action economy for BBEGs, so it makes sense to try for players as well.
Not gonna lie: I haven’t played or run Rime, but I hear it’s more of a horror game. In that case, it’s okay for the monsters to be stronger than the characters: in fact, I wouldn’t run it with 5 or 6 players for that reason. It’s okay for characters to have to die or run away (if your players are like mine and are okay with it too).
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
because 4 characters level together - the bonus that you give your players for balance won’t.
as such 4 characters with no extra helping hand levelling at the pace the game (that I imagine has been playtested to death before release and balanced for 4-6) levels will be consistent.
if you power up your players (assuming it’s significant enough to matter) it will effect the early game, your players will walk through encounters, they won’t feel a struggle and they won’t need make as many meaningful decisions. Which for most games not a big deal, but Rime is supposed to be a survival horror, a game type that relies on struggle, under prepared ness, meaningful decisions etc.
now this will naturally fizzle out probably by level 4 or 5 the game will of caught up with the players and for a level or two all is well.
and then when it starts to ramp up - your players are toast.
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for explaining the mechanics.
I think I'm going to heed your advice. I might do something like let this player be a half-doppelganger if they want -- maybe give them some weakened doppelganger abilities, while also giving them some disadvantages. Maybe there's a small chance they randomly change forms without wanting to, or something. This could lead to some really good story opportunities, since the adventure says if townspeople find out they're a doppleganger they will try to kill or drive them out out of fear.
I'll give the "legendary actions" idea some thought. But I'm leaning toward the tried and true fourth character sheet idea. Specifically because that gives me opportunities to work in even more story elements.