Setup: After engaging in two significant combat encounters that resulted in many lost hit points and spells the party discovers one of the NPC that is crucial to the current adventure has been kidnapped. After following tracks that lead to the BBEG hideout the party decides to take him on it what is essentially the final boss battle. The party has discussed their attack strategy and it pretty much equates to run in quarterstaff and spells blazing. From a DM standpoint, I appreciate the moxie the players have to go after the boss after the previously mentioned encounters but the other point of view is that the party is in no condition for this encounter.
In this 'raiding' party there is another NPC that could give the players a wake-up call and indicate that the party is not ready for the encounter and the kidnapped NPC, would be fine based on some information the Party never seemed to piece together through the adventure but this NPC could reveal it.
Question: How often have you needed to warn off a party to an encounter either out of the game or via NPC providing information. Is there a best way to approach a situation as I have described? I feel that I'm taking something away by telling the party to stop and think about what's going on and are you taking the right approach. Then again, I'd hate to TPK the group.
What if the BBEG just wasn’t there at the time? He’s off doing villainy or ran to the store to pick up some milk and eggs for a cake he’s baking or whatever.
Then the party can go in, fight some minions, rescue the NPC, get a little loot, and really annoy the big bad. You could either make it clear this is his base (maybe they fight a top lieutenant) and hopefully they’ll be clever enough to realize they were lucky and need to get out before he comes back; or give no hints this is the base, so when they finally do discover it is, they’ll be kicking themselves for not sabotaging it.
What something are you taking away by providing in game information or a meta "folks, can you take stock of your character sheets" moment other than the likely experience of TPK?
This is where the Prime Directive of player agency take to extremes at some tables falters. This is a collaborative game and one of the DM's role is guide to the world. Nothing wrong with a narrative clue like an NPC with the party preparing themself for a likely death or comment that they think this tact is needlessly aggressive, or maybe one mercenary NPC reaches out to a mercenary oriented PC and asks to sort of set up a party will to determine how treasure belonging to likely casualties will be redistributed among the possible survivors. There are bonds you can pull to remind them of the principle of living to fight another day. You can provide in game atmosphere and a meta game tactical review of assets and liabilities on character sheets. As long as you don't say "you can't do that" I think you're doing just fine. Part of your role is explaining the world as the characters see it, and sometimes players don't realize their characters have a stance on mortality. Might be a good RP moment.
And if they still go for it, you did your best in game and meta letting them know what they were getting into, so no quarter once they go through the door.
There's a lot of information missing from this setup to make a proper assessment and help strategize how to handle an unprepared party from encountering your BBEG prematurely. However, I appreciate the brevity of the setup so we can get into your options.
First, I would not present the encounter unless the party was at the bare minimum preparedness to dive in. I made this mistake once and let a TPK occur. I was not a good DM for letting this happen. But, that cat is out of the bag unless you can put it back in somehow. (Ex. Oh no! The entire lair was transported into another dimension! You have to figure out where it went and how to get there!)
Now that the party has access to the BBEG and has decided to dive foolhardily into their doom, don't be afraid to let the party fail. Failure creates stronger foes. And most importantly, failure does not have to mean TPK. I'll draw from the example of the Briarwood arc from Critical Role Campaign 1. The first time they encounter the big bad, the party makes some bad decisions, fails at defeating him, and he escapes. They encounter him again later, once the party is more prepared, and win.
I think your answer is somewhere in between inserting a forced NPC warning to back off, and a TPK.
Things that could fall in between.
1. The path to the lair is obscured or inaccessible.
2. Someone the party knows and respects as a powerful ally beats the party to the punch and gets decimated.
3. Divine intervention (a diety steps in to help the party escape with their lives).
4. The party is destroyed down to the last party member and the BBEG offers them a deal to save their friends (defeat without TPK).
4. The party does okay during the battle and the BBEG retreats.
5. The party member is killed (first to drop) and is irrevocably dead then the BBEG absconds with their corpse (defeat without TPK).
6. A minion of equal power to the unprepared party steps in and confronts the party while the BBEG escapes.
What if the BBEG just wasn’t there at the time? He’s off doing villainy or ran to the store to pick up some milk and eggs for a cake he’s baking or whatever.
Then the party can go in, fight some minions, rescue the NPC, get a little loot, and really annoy the big bad. You could either make it clear this is his base (maybe they fight a top lieutenant) and hopefully they’ll be clever enough to realize they were lucky and need to get out before he comes back; or give no hints this is the base, so when they finally do discover it is, they’ll be kicking themselves for not sabotaging it.
LOL, I have to admit there is something about that 'idea' which is appealing. the problem is as a timeline goes the party is at least thirty minutes behind the BBEG so having him run out of eggs is possible it will be very tight for them not crossing paths.
What something are you taking away by providing in game information or a meta "folks, can you take stock of your character sheets" moment other than the likely experience of TPK?
This is where the Prime Directive of player agency take to extremes at some tables falters. This is a collaborative game and one of the DM's role is guide to the world. Nothing wrong with a narrative clue like an NPC with the party preparing themself for a likely death or comment that they think this tact is needlessly aggressive, or maybe one mercenary NPC reaches out to a mercenary oriented PC and asks to sort of set up a party will to determine how treasure belonging to likely casualties will be redistributed among the possible survivors. There are bonds you can pull to remind them of the principle of living to fight another day. You can provide in game atmosphere and a meta game tactical review of assets and liabilities on character sheets. As long as you don't say "you can't do that" I think you're doing just fine. Part of your role is explaining the world as the characters see it, and sometimes players don't realize their characters have a stance on mortality. Might be a good RP moment.
And if they still go for it, you did your best in game and meta letting them know what they were getting into, so no quarter once they go through the door.
I like the NPC interaction you presented and it works better than what I was considering a 'no prepared' speech from him. I was just missing the ideas behind the interaction so I appreciate this brainstorm.
What something are you taking away by providing in game information or a meta "folks, can you take stock of your character sheets" moment other than the likely experience of TPK?
This is where the Prime Directive of player agency take to extremes at some tables falters. This is a collaborative game and one of the DM's role is guide to the world. Nothing wrong with a narrative clue like an NPC with the party preparing themself for a likely death or comment that they think this tact is needlessly aggressive, or maybe one mercenary NPC reaches out to a mercenary oriented PC and asks to sort of set up a party will to determine how treasure belonging to likely casualties will be redistributed among the possible survivors. There are bonds you can pull to remind them of the principle of living to fight another day. You can provide in game atmosphere and a meta game tactical review of assets and liabilities on character sheets. As long as you don't say "you can't do that" I think you're doing just fine. Part of your role is explaining the world as the characters see it, and sometimes players don't realize their characters have a stance on mortality. Might be a good RP moment.
And if they still go for it, you did your best in game and meta letting them know what they were getting into, so no quarter once they go through the door.
I like the NPC interaction you presented and it works better than what I was considering a 'no prepared' speech from him. I was just missing the ideas behind the interaction so I appreciate this brainstorm.
Yes, it's not uncommon for a DM and a group to get to a moment where the party is going to make a bad call that could be avoided if they took a breath or had some info or recalling some info. Tunnel vision is a thing in real life ... more American air craft were lost during the Viet Nam conflict due to target fixation and crashing into jungle canopy than actual Vietnamese anti aircraft capability. A little nudge sometimes helps, and it's not railroading if you're doing it for the sake of a TPK. A sort of "folks, I don't think you're ready for this" would be a disruptive wake up call and you don't want the party to lose confidence. So keeping the warning through a foreboding moment in game immersion should be effective. I wish I could find it but I think it was in the Miami Vice movie over a decade back where Colin Ferrell tells his partner about a "foreboding" feeling, but his natural brogue and attempt at an American accent just make it a laughable moment, so careful how you accent it.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I would note that PCs being early could mean the bad guys not being prepared for them. That's actually a decent way to encourage people to not use a five minute workday.
There are other ways to lose a fight besides TPK. Remember that falling to 0 hp isn't death. The BBEG could defeat the party, and they wake up in cells in his dungeons, awaiting torture to extract names of all their allies. But somehow there is a way for them to escape. Of course, they don't get out with any of their loot.
Is the BBEG likely to have their lair unguarded? Have a bloody great gate at the entrance and guards who immediately see them and start peppering them with arrows, or activate a forcefield which they can't get through. Or have them knocked out and captured, or just discarded as they aren't seen as a threat.
1) Modify the encounter so that the characters have a chance to survive - if this was supposed to be a big battle where the characters really need all their resources then come up with an alternate scenario (the suggested "boss not home" is one option). Alternatively, come up with some sort of diplomatic solution (As an example, I have a bunch of characters about to encounter a dragon that could easily slide into a TPK so I am thinking of having the dragon be willing to accept the characters doing something for the dragon in exchange for what the characters want rather than fighting it out).
2) If the players have knowledge that the characters already know but they have forgotten then usually I will remind them either using an in game NPC or directly as the DM. There are things that the CHARACTERS would never forget that a bunch of players playing a game for a few hours once every week or two will easily forget. Connections that might be easy for the characters to make may be hard for the players when one part of the event happen 6 weeks ago in real life but 3 days ago for the character in game time. There is a bit of a tight rope but quite often the players don't hear everything the DM says even if they seem to be listening. They catch one part and not another. For these sorts of situations the DM really needs to have some mechanism of letting the players have all the information they really should have.
For example, if they characters know that there is no imminent threat to the kidnapped NPC - at least nothing that would prevent a long rest - then the DM needs to make sure the players are aware of it. Occasionally, there are things that characters would forget and if players forget then it is a fun parallel - however, knowledge that would prevent a TPK isn't in that category. The characters KNOW when they are low on resources, they know how dangerous that can be, if the players have come up with some false reason for haste of have simply missed something the DM made clear then the DM should (some of the time anyway) step in and make sure that the players understand the situation at least as well as the characters would.
This is a tough one. I'd probably start with some strong suggestions from the NPC.
However, if they ignore the NPC and this is the first time the party has done something like this (they are not just recklessly diving into encounters they are not ready for all the time) I would be tempted to just step out of the game and tell the players directly "I'm going to give you a one-time warning on this: This is one badass enemy you are facing. Look at your character sheets. Do you really think you'll survive? Are you prepared for a possible TPK? Think carefully."
If they continued after that, I wouldn't feel too guilty about a TPK (although I'd still consider, as mentioned above, having all the character wake up captured instead).
It doesn't need to be a TPK. The BBEG could deal non lethal melee damage and now the mission changes from a rescue to a daring escape from the BBEG's prison cells. These interlopers have moxie, they are dumb as a box of bricks, but he can respect the pure audacity that these punks came into his house to bring the pain. Even X Guild/guards won't do that.
maybe a few lesser minions raid where they're holed up and attempt to take out the party but balance so that the party won't die but will have enough of a challenge that they gain a level and take enough damage to have to long rest a bit while they wait to attack the BBEG now powered up with the level. The minions could also have some cool magic items for them to snatch
Setup: After engaging in two significant combat encounters that resulted in many lost hit points and spells the party discovers one of the NPC that is crucial to the current adventure has been kidnapped. After following tracks that lead to the BBEG hideout the party decides to take him on it what is essentially the final boss battle. The party has discussed their attack strategy and it pretty much equates to run in quarterstaff and spells blazing. From a DM standpoint, I appreciate the moxie the players have to go after the boss after the previously mentioned encounters but the other point of view is that the party is in no condition for this encounter.
In this 'raiding' party there is another NPC that could give the players a wake-up call and indicate that the party is not ready for the encounter and the kidnapped NPC, would be fine based on some information the Party never seemed to piece together through the adventure but this NPC could reveal it.
Question: How often have you needed to warn off a party to an encounter either out of the game or via NPC providing information. Is there a best way to approach a situation as I have described? I feel that I'm taking something away by telling the party to stop and think about what's going on and are you taking the right approach. Then again, I'd hate to TPK the group.
What if the BBEG just wasn’t there at the time? He’s off doing villainy or ran to the store to pick up some milk and eggs for a cake he’s baking or whatever.
Then the party can go in, fight some minions, rescue the NPC, get a little loot, and really annoy the big bad. You could either make it clear this is his base (maybe they fight a top lieutenant) and hopefully they’ll be clever enough to realize they were lucky and need to get out before he comes back; or give no hints this is the base, so when they finally do discover it is, they’ll be kicking themselves for not sabotaging it.
What something are you taking away by providing in game information or a meta "folks, can you take stock of your character sheets" moment other than the likely experience of TPK?
This is where the Prime Directive of player agency take to extremes at some tables falters. This is a collaborative game and one of the DM's role is guide to the world. Nothing wrong with a narrative clue like an NPC with the party preparing themself for a likely death or comment that they think this tact is needlessly aggressive, or maybe one mercenary NPC reaches out to a mercenary oriented PC and asks to sort of set up a party will to determine how treasure belonging to likely casualties will be redistributed among the possible survivors. There are bonds you can pull to remind them of the principle of living to fight another day. You can provide in game atmosphere and a meta game tactical review of assets and liabilities on character sheets. As long as you don't say "you can't do that" I think you're doing just fine. Part of your role is explaining the world as the characters see it, and sometimes players don't realize their characters have a stance on mortality. Might be a good RP moment.
And if they still go for it, you did your best in game and meta letting them know what they were getting into, so no quarter once they go through the door.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
There's a lot of information missing from this setup to make a proper assessment and help strategize how to handle an unprepared party from encountering your BBEG prematurely. However, I appreciate the brevity of the setup so we can get into your options.
First, I would not present the encounter unless the party was at the bare minimum preparedness to dive in. I made this mistake once and let a TPK occur. I was not a good DM for letting this happen. But, that cat is out of the bag unless you can put it back in somehow. (Ex. Oh no! The entire lair was transported into another dimension! You have to figure out where it went and how to get there!)
Now that the party has access to the BBEG and has decided to dive foolhardily into their doom, don't be afraid to let the party fail. Failure creates stronger foes. And most importantly, failure does not have to mean TPK. I'll draw from the example of the Briarwood arc from Critical Role Campaign 1. The first time they encounter the big bad, the party makes some bad decisions, fails at defeating him, and he escapes. They encounter him again later, once the party is more prepared, and win.
I think your answer is somewhere in between inserting a forced NPC warning to back off, and a TPK.
Things that could fall in between.
1. The path to the lair is obscured or inaccessible.
2. Someone the party knows and respects as a powerful ally beats the party to the punch and gets decimated.
3. Divine intervention (a diety steps in to help the party escape with their lives).
4. The party is destroyed down to the last party member and the BBEG offers them a deal to save their friends (defeat without TPK).
4. The party does okay during the battle and the BBEG retreats.
5. The party member is killed (first to drop) and is irrevocably dead then the BBEG absconds with their corpse (defeat without TPK).
6. A minion of equal power to the unprepared party steps in and confronts the party while the BBEG escapes.
LOL, I have to admit there is something about that 'idea' which is appealing. the problem is as a timeline goes the party is at least thirty minutes behind the BBEG so having him run out of eggs is possible it will be very tight for them not crossing paths.
I like the NPC interaction you presented and it works better than what I was considering a 'no prepared' speech from him. I was just missing the ideas behind the interaction so I appreciate this brainstorm.
Yes, it's not uncommon for a DM and a group to get to a moment where the party is going to make a bad call that could be avoided if they took a breath or had some info or recalling some info. Tunnel vision is a thing in real life ... more American air craft were lost during the Viet Nam conflict due to target fixation and crashing into jungle canopy than actual Vietnamese anti aircraft capability. A little nudge sometimes helps, and it's not railroading if you're doing it for the sake of a TPK. A sort of "folks, I don't think you're ready for this" would be a disruptive wake up call and you don't want the party to lose confidence. So keeping the warning through a foreboding moment in game immersion should be effective. I wish I could find it but I think it was in the Miami Vice movie over a decade back where Colin Ferrell tells his partner about a "foreboding" feeling, but his natural brogue and attempt at an American accent just make it a laughable moment, so careful how you accent it.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I would note that PCs being early could mean the bad guys not being prepared for them. That's actually a decent way to encourage people to not use a five minute workday.
There are other ways to lose a fight besides TPK. Remember that falling to 0 hp isn't death. The BBEG could defeat the party, and they wake up in cells in his dungeons, awaiting torture to extract names of all their allies. But somehow there is a way for them to escape. Of course, they don't get out with any of their loot.
What is they catch a glance of the BBEG going aggro on a minion and utterly obliterates them? That may get them to back off...
Is the BBEG likely to have their lair unguarded? Have a bloody great gate at the entrance and guards who immediately see them and start peppering them with arrows, or activate a forcefield which they can't get through. Or have them knocked out and captured, or just discarded as they aren't seen as a threat.
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There are really two things the DM can do ..
1) Modify the encounter so that the characters have a chance to survive - if this was supposed to be a big battle where the characters really need all their resources then come up with an alternate scenario (the suggested "boss not home" is one option). Alternatively, come up with some sort of diplomatic solution (As an example, I have a bunch of characters about to encounter a dragon that could easily slide into a TPK so I am thinking of having the dragon be willing to accept the characters doing something for the dragon in exchange for what the characters want rather than fighting it out).
2) If the players have knowledge that the characters already know but they have forgotten then usually I will remind them either using an in game NPC or directly as the DM. There are things that the CHARACTERS would never forget that a bunch of players playing a game for a few hours once every week or two will easily forget. Connections that might be easy for the characters to make may be hard for the players when one part of the event happen 6 weeks ago in real life but 3 days ago for the character in game time. There is a bit of a tight rope but quite often the players don't hear everything the DM says even if they seem to be listening. They catch one part and not another. For these sorts of situations the DM really needs to have some mechanism of letting the players have all the information they really should have.
For example, if they characters know that there is no imminent threat to the kidnapped NPC - at least nothing that would prevent a long rest - then the DM needs to make sure the players are aware of it. Occasionally, there are things that characters would forget and if players forget then it is a fun parallel - however, knowledge that would prevent a TPK isn't in that category. The characters KNOW when they are low on resources, they know how dangerous that can be, if the players have come up with some false reason for haste of have simply missed something the DM made clear then the DM should (some of the time anyway) step in and make sure that the players understand the situation at least as well as the characters would.
This is a tough one. I'd probably start with some strong suggestions from the NPC.
However, if they ignore the NPC and this is the first time the party has done something like this (they are not just recklessly diving into encounters they are not ready for all the time) I would be tempted to just step out of the game and tell the players directly "I'm going to give you a one-time warning on this: This is one badass enemy you are facing. Look at your character sheets. Do you really think you'll survive? Are you prepared for a possible TPK? Think carefully."
If they continued after that, I wouldn't feel too guilty about a TPK (although I'd still consider, as mentioned above, having all the character wake up captured instead).
It doesn't need to be a TPK. The BBEG could deal non lethal melee damage and now the mission changes from a rescue to a daring escape from the BBEG's prison cells. These interlopers have moxie, they are dumb as a box of bricks, but he can respect the pure audacity that these punks came into his house to bring the pain. Even X Guild/guards won't do that.
maybe a few lesser minions raid where they're holed up and attempt to take out the party but balance so that the party won't die but will have enough of a challenge that they gain a level and take enough damage to have to long rest a bit while they wait to attack the BBEG now powered up with the level. The minions could also have some cool magic items for them to snatch