So I have a question here because Polymorph, a crazy powerful fourth level spell, can effectively work as a huge healing buff (and more) that provides a player up to 157 HP*.
* - Average HP of a Giant Ape, a CR7 beast that any willing PC can be polymorphed into assuming they are of the same level as the caster using Polymorph (level four spells come online at player level 7).
For instance, here's a possible scenario: Our level 7, 70 HP Fighter is tanking for his party, and drops to only 20 HP after a few rounds. Our level 7 Druid decides that they can either cast a healing spell, which do only around 72 HP of healing (Healing Spirit at 4th level is 3d6, max six times used), or casting Polymorph, which can transform our injured Fighter into a full-on 157 HP Great Ape, ready to keep kicking butt.
Seems like a no-brainer, right? Polymorph is, strangely enough, one of the best healing spells in the game -- it not only grants a ton of HP, but it also gives all sorts of other advantages in both combat and exploration.
I think my first instinct to prevent abuse like this (and specifically nerfing Polymorph a bit) is either calculating the new creature's HP as a portion of their average HP equal to the portion of HP lost by the Fighter. In our example, the Giant Ape would show up, but it, like the Fighter that transformed into it, will have only 2/7ths of its HP remaining, or about 45 HP. That's still pretty dang good, it's free HP!
Alternatively, if that's too much mathing at the table, just reduce the new creature's HP by the same amount as the original's. In our scenario, that would be 50 HP lost from the Giant Ape when it shows up, or starting with 107 HP.
Thoughts? Is this a problem that needs to be fixed? Concentration can definitely complicate this, but already having a Giant Ape on the battlefield is going to help cushion some blows from the Druid. After all, they're our new tank, and a dang good one at that!
I generally house rule Polymorph to cap CR at the level of the spell, not the level of the target. Yes, this does let you polymorph a Guard into an Elephant, but generating a CR 4 ally isn't really out of line for a 4th level spell, while generating a CR 7 Giant Ape or CR 8 Tyrannosaurus Rex is well out of line for a 4th level spell.
Remember all stats including intelligence turn get changed so, giant ape is intelligence 6 so your player then needs to play as a giant ape. It also means they probably become more susceptible to magic attacks as there saving throws will be lower.
My players have learnt that polymorph needs to be considered before using it, yes you get a boost in hit points but that usually comes at a cost as our dex, int etc all get degraded. Or just throw in some spell users with dispel magic to counter. Another option I have done, Druid polymorphs player into a creature with a low wisdom, enemy spell caster then casts polymorph to turn them into something else that is useless in combat and then they get ignored.
I don’t have any issues with players using polymorph and have never needed to nerf it mainly because I stick to the RAW and ensure that players correctly change their behavior based on the creature they turn into.
polymorph doesn't heal, it only replaces. The Fighter in your example would return to their original form at most an hour later, at 20 hp when the spell ends, still requiring healing in some form, while the level 7 druid has used its only level 4 spell slot for that day to do so.
Also, the giant ape represents almost the apex of the spell, since there are no beasts above CR 8 (well, there is one, from an adventure book, but no DM would allow it since its both an individual named creature and the effect of allowing polymorph to make you equivalent to an archmage is insanely broken), so the spell would be more limited in usefulness in this way.
Plus, the general replacement of mental abilities means that you are going to have a very friendly, but stupid (even the giant ape) teammate while the spell is active
I don’t have any issues with players using polymorph and have never needed to nerf it mainly because I stick to the RAW and ensure that players correctly change their behavior based on the creature they turn into.
How so? In the case described (Polymorph into INT 7 Giant Ape) the character won't be affected too much, cognitively, considering INT is often a dump stat anyways. Even so, INT 7 means that the creature can comprehend languages and instructions pretty easily. A mastiff is INT 3, warhorse INT 2. Both of those creatures tend to be played as though they are obedient and at least understand that their friends should be protected.
And INT 7 Giant Ape that can recognize its friends (you don't rule that it suddenly loses all of its memories, do you?) is going to know enough to attack what is closest to it, and protect its weakest comrades.
polymorph doesn't heal, it only replaces. The Fighter in your example would return to their original form at most an hour later, at 20 hp when the spell ends, still requiring healing in some form, while the level 7 druid has used its only level 4 spell slot for that day to do so.
Not to be flippant, but so? A fourth level spell giving 157 temp HP is insanely good still. I'm comparing it to other things a player can use that fourth level spell on ... nothing grants anywhere near that amount of temp HP, and even if you are obstinate about comparing temp HP to real healing, it's more than double temp HP what the best fourth level healing spell can do.
And it's not just temp HP, it makes their attacks stronger as well.
And yes, the Fighter doesn't actually heal back up to 70 HP, but if Concentration was held long enough (again, a INT 7 creature should know enough to protect a much weaker friend) then an hour is PLENTY of time to get somewhere safe to take a short rest or get in other healing spells.
I don’t have any issues with players using polymorph and have never needed to nerf it mainly because I stick to the RAW and ensure that players correctly change their behavior based on the creature they turn into.
How so? In the case described (Polymorph into INT 7 Giant Ape) the character won't be affected too much, cognitively, considering INT is often a dump stat anyways. Even so, INT 7 means that the creature can comprehend languages and instructions pretty easily. A mastiff is INT 3, warhorse INT 2. Both of those creatures tend to be played as though they are obedient and at least understand that their friends should be protected.
And INT 7 Giant Ape that can recognize its friends (you don't rule that it suddenly loses all of its memories, do you?) is going to know enough to attack what is closest to it, and protect its weakest comrades.
polymorph doesn't heal, it only replaces. The Fighter in your example would return to their original form at most an hour later, at 20 hp when the spell ends, still requiring healing in some form, while the level 7 druid has used its only level 4 spell slot for that day to do so.
Not to be flippant, but so? A fourth level spell giving 157 temp HP is insanely good still. I'm comparing it to other things a player can use that fourth level spell on ... nothing grants anywhere near that amount of temp HP, and even if you are obstinate about comparing temp HP to real healing, it's more than double temp HP what the best fourth level healing spell can do.
And it's not just temp HP, it makes their attacks stronger as well.
And yes, the Fighter doesn't actually heal back up to 70 HP, but if Concentration was held long enough (again, a INT 7 creature should know enough to protect a much weaker friend) then an hour is PLENTY of time to get somewhere safe to take a short rest or get in other healing spells.
As a DM, I have never had a "friendly" polymorph that lasted longer than a few rounds, if even 1. Your giant ape has no specific abilities to prevent someone from attacking the druid. the druid cannot use its concentration on any other spell or ability or the polymorph ends. The fighter loses any use of its class abilities or magic items while transformed, can't use anything requiring hands (due to polymorph restrictions), and any creature its fighting with resistance to non-magical bludgeoning damage (which is pretty common trait in foes fought by level 7 PCs) will easily shrug off the apes attacks. Meanwhile, unless another spellcaster other than the druid is able to maintain a barkskin or similar spell on it, the apes AC is 12, and most of its Saving Throws are mediocre at best (plus it has no bonus for proficiency to them). If the concentration isn't dropped, the ape is going to lose HP at a prodigious rate, since a creature with +7 to attacks (typical for monsters fought at this level) will hit it on a roll of 5 or higher.
Is this a powerful play with the spell? Yes...is it gamebreaking? No. Is it even unique? No. The Druid wildshape works the same way, and the Druid gets that ability twice per short rest, not once per long rest as per Polymorph for a level 7 druid.
I don’t rule it forgets it’s friends but my players do then stop taking part in any tactics, it stops actively tanking and just hits what is closest regardless of where the biggest threat is. So suddenly the tank is fighting the goblins near it and ignoring the bugbear attacking the Druid.
Very quickly party tactics fall by the wayside and the loose cannon ape becomes a hindrance as it just randomly attacks enemies it can get to.
Also you say int is a dump stat my players always play to there int in game so for them it is usually an important stat, especially for role playing, making tactics or just having a clue as to what is going on.
I would expect Int 7 is enough to know the druid needs to be protected, and would not see a problem with the ape applying tactics in battle, a giant ape however knows no languages so the party would not be able to give it commands (however somple (Mastiffs and warhorses can be taught to respond to certain simple commands but this takes time).
A T-rex (int 2) might be a different matter but it could be argued that such things are wisdom based rather than int based (which is more about book knowledge) after all wolves carry out pack tactics.
I absolutely agree that if the party is fighting against creatures with reasonable intelligence they would know targetting the caster would be likely to get rid of the giant ape.
The 157 HP also exagerates the power of polymorph, the fighter is likely to have an AC or 18-20, possibly higher if they have magic items, polymorph to a giant ape brings this down to 12 this would mean they would get hit roughly twice as often, making the 157 HP the equivalent of abouyt 80 on the fighter (though save based attacks does affect this).
So I have a question here because Polymorph, a crazy powerful fourth level spell, can effectively work as a huge healing buff (and more) that provides a player up to 157 HP*.
…transform our injured Fighter into a full-on 157 HP Great Ape, ready to keep kicking butt.
It's a good spell, for the reasons you stated, as well as the fast movement (including climb) but it has tradeoffs.
That level 7 fighter now has no access to fighting styles, second wind, action surge, arcane shot, improved criticals, etc, etc, etc. They probably have worse saving throws than they had before. They also don't have their magical armour or weapons (their mighty fists are normal weapons for the purposes of damage resistance). Any potions, scrolls, tools, kits, keys, or other items they were carrying are now inaccessible.
As an aside, playing a druid, I'd rather spend concentration on summoning animals, insects or elementals instead of turning our fighter into a monkey. In my experience, polymorph is mostly used by bards.
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So I have a question here because Polymorph, a crazy powerful fourth level spell, can effectively work as a huge healing buff (and more) that provides a player up to 157 HP*.
* - Average HP of a Giant Ape, a CR7 beast that any willing PC can be polymorphed into assuming they are of the same level as the caster using Polymorph (level four spells come online at player level 7).
For instance, here's a possible scenario: Our level 7, 70 HP Fighter is tanking for his party, and drops to only 20 HP after a few rounds. Our level 7 Druid decides that they can either cast a healing spell, which do only around 72 HP of healing (Healing Spirit at 4th level is 3d6, max six times used), or casting Polymorph, which can transform our injured Fighter into a full-on 157 HP Great Ape, ready to keep kicking butt.
Seems like a no-brainer, right? Polymorph is, strangely enough, one of the best healing spells in the game -- it not only grants a ton of HP, but it also gives all sorts of other advantages in both combat and exploration.
I think my first instinct to prevent abuse like this (and specifically nerfing Polymorph a bit) is either calculating the new creature's HP as a portion of their average HP equal to the portion of HP lost by the Fighter. In our example, the Giant Ape would show up, but it, like the Fighter that transformed into it, will have only 2/7ths of its HP remaining, or about 45 HP. That's still pretty dang good, it's free HP!
Alternatively, if that's too much mathing at the table, just reduce the new creature's HP by the same amount as the original's. In our scenario, that would be 50 HP lost from the Giant Ape when it shows up, or starting with 107 HP.
Thoughts? Is this a problem that needs to be fixed? Concentration can definitely complicate this, but already having a Giant Ape on the battlefield is going to help cushion some blows from the Druid. After all, they're our new tank, and a dang good one at that!
I generally house rule Polymorph to cap CR at the level of the spell, not the level of the target. Yes, this does let you polymorph a Guard into an Elephant, but generating a CR 4 ally isn't really out of line for a 4th level spell, while generating a CR 7 Giant Ape or CR 8 Tyrannosaurus Rex is well out of line for a 4th level spell.
Remember all stats including intelligence turn get changed so, giant ape is intelligence 6 so your player then needs to play as a giant ape. It also means they probably become more susceptible to magic attacks as there saving throws will be lower.
My players have learnt that polymorph needs to be considered before using it, yes you get a boost in hit points but that usually comes at a cost as our dex, int etc all get degraded. Or just throw in some spell users with dispel magic to counter. Another option I have done, Druid polymorphs player into a creature with a low wisdom, enemy spell caster then casts polymorph to turn them into something else that is useless in combat and then they get ignored.
I don’t have any issues with players using polymorph and have never needed to nerf it mainly because I stick to the RAW and ensure that players correctly change their behavior based on the creature they turn into.
polymorph doesn't heal, it only replaces. The Fighter in your example would return to their original form at most an hour later, at 20 hp when the spell ends, still requiring healing in some form, while the level 7 druid has used its only level 4 spell slot for that day to do so.
Also, the giant ape represents almost the apex of the spell, since there are no beasts above CR 8 (well, there is one, from an adventure book, but no DM would allow it since its both an individual named creature and the effect of allowing polymorph to make you equivalent to an archmage is insanely broken), so the spell would be more limited in usefulness in this way.
Plus, the general replacement of mental abilities means that you are going to have a very friendly, but stupid (even the giant ape) teammate while the spell is active
How so? In the case described (Polymorph into INT 7 Giant Ape) the character won't be affected too much, cognitively, considering INT is often a dump stat anyways. Even so, INT 7 means that the creature can comprehend languages and instructions pretty easily. A mastiff is INT 3, warhorse INT 2. Both of those creatures tend to be played as though they are obedient and at least understand that their friends should be protected.
And INT 7 Giant Ape that can recognize its friends (you don't rule that it suddenly loses all of its memories, do you?) is going to know enough to attack what is closest to it, and protect its weakest comrades.
Not to be flippant, but so? A fourth level spell giving 157 temp HP is insanely good still. I'm comparing it to other things a player can use that fourth level spell on ... nothing grants anywhere near that amount of temp HP, and even if you are obstinate about comparing temp HP to real healing, it's more than double temp HP what the best fourth level healing spell can do.
And it's not just temp HP, it makes their attacks stronger as well.
And yes, the Fighter doesn't actually heal back up to 70 HP, but if Concentration was held long enough (again, a INT 7 creature should know enough to protect a much weaker friend) then an hour is PLENTY of time to get somewhere safe to take a short rest or get in other healing spells.
As a DM, I have never had a "friendly" polymorph that lasted longer than a few rounds, if even 1. Your giant ape has no specific abilities to prevent someone from attacking the druid. the druid cannot use its concentration on any other spell or ability or the polymorph ends. The fighter loses any use of its class abilities or magic items while transformed, can't use anything requiring hands (due to polymorph restrictions), and any creature its fighting with resistance to non-magical bludgeoning damage (which is pretty common trait in foes fought by level 7 PCs) will easily shrug off the apes attacks. Meanwhile, unless another spellcaster other than the druid is able to maintain a barkskin or similar spell on it, the apes AC is 12, and most of its Saving Throws are mediocre at best (plus it has no bonus for proficiency to them). If the concentration isn't dropped, the ape is going to lose HP at a prodigious rate, since a creature with +7 to attacks (typical for monsters fought at this level) will hit it on a roll of 5 or higher.
Is this a powerful play with the spell? Yes...is it gamebreaking? No. Is it even unique? No. The Druid wildshape works the same way, and the Druid gets that ability twice per short rest, not once per long rest as per Polymorph for a level 7 druid.
I don’t rule it forgets it’s friends but my players do then stop taking part in any tactics, it stops actively tanking and just hits what is closest regardless of where the biggest threat is. So suddenly the tank is fighting the goblins near it and ignoring the bugbear attacking the Druid.
Very quickly party tactics fall by the wayside and the loose cannon ape becomes a hindrance as it just randomly attacks enemies it can get to.
Also you say int is a dump stat my players always play to there int in game so for them it is usually an important stat, especially for role playing, making tactics or just having a clue as to what is going on.
I've yet to see this break a game, and it's actually a lot of fun turning players into giant apes. Your players will enjoy it, so let them.
However, you may want to implement some of the following if you are really worried about it:
I would expect Int 7 is enough to know the druid needs to be protected, and would not see a problem with the ape applying tactics in battle, a giant ape however knows no languages so the party would not be able to give it commands (however somple (Mastiffs and warhorses can be taught to respond to certain simple commands but this takes time).
A T-rex (int 2) might be a different matter but it could be argued that such things are wisdom based rather than int based (which is more about book knowledge) after all wolves carry out pack tactics.
I absolutely agree that if the party is fighting against creatures with reasonable intelligence they would know targetting the caster would be likely to get rid of the giant ape.
The 157 HP also exagerates the power of polymorph, the fighter is likely to have an AC or 18-20, possibly higher if they have magic items, polymorph to a giant ape brings this down to 12 this would mean they would get hit roughly twice as often, making the 157 HP the equivalent of abouyt 80 on the fighter (though save based attacks does affect this).
It's a good spell, for the reasons you stated, as well as the fast movement (including climb) but it has tradeoffs.
That level 7 fighter now has no access to fighting styles, second wind, action surge, arcane shot, improved criticals, etc, etc, etc. They probably have worse saving throws than they had before. They also don't have their magical armour or weapons (their mighty fists are normal weapons for the purposes of damage resistance). Any potions, scrolls, tools, kits, keys, or other items they were carrying are now inaccessible.
As an aside, playing a druid, I'd rather spend concentration on summoning animals, insects or elementals instead of turning our fighter into a monkey. In my experience, polymorph is mostly used by bards.