It’s one of the most iconic spells in d&d. But how do you handle it?
the description says place it anywhere you want within range and detonate in the 20’ radius. Everyone in there takes damage.
Questions - do you allow spell placement behind a monster (can they see that point? Is a glimps enough or would you consider the player having an unobstructed point for the full action time in order to place it at a certain location?
Can you place it in the empty air? Seems like you can. This is an easy way of bypassing the obstruction of another creature. How do you handle this?
Second one first, because it’s easier. Yes You can target empty air. In fact, since you target a point and not a creature or object, it is by definition always going to be in the empty air.
As far as behind a monster, also yes. Even though an enemy might occupy a five foot square (or whatever size), they don’t completely fill the square, there’s always space around them. So while a fireball does create a “bright streak” of energy that streaks toward the point you chose, there’s going to be plenty of room for that streak to go around the monster. Since no attack roll is involved, rules for cover do not apply as far as a minus to hit. Now, the bright streak can’t go around corners, or through walls or other examples of total cover (some DMs might allow an exception and let it go through something like a keyhole), but the explosion can and does go around corners. So you can target the empty air at the end of a hallway to hit target around a corner, but you can’t make the center point be around the corner.
the description says place it anywhere you want within range and detonate in the 20’ radius. Everyone in there takes damage.
Correct.
Questions - do you allow spell placement behind a monster (can they see that point? Is a glimps enough or would you consider the player having an unobstructed point for the full action time in order to place it at a certain location?
Unless you're fighting a gelatinous cube in hallway that's precisely 5 feet tall and 5 feet wide, aiming past a creature shouldn't be an issue. Most of a creature's space is empty; they're not box-shaped and some of that space is accounted for by the threat of getting hit.. Besides, ranged weapons can shoot past creatures as well (with half cover.)
Can you place it in the empty air? Seems like you can.
Yes, you can. There's no requirement to choose a point that's on a creature, object or surface.
This is an easy way of bypassing the obstruction of another creature. How do you handle this?
As described in the spell. The caster chooses a point and that's where the explosion occurs. That's all you need to use the spell 99/100 times. In the rare event a player wants to try something extra tricky like passing the bead through a small hole 100 feet away, you can simply call for an attack roll against AC 10 or something to add a small chance of failure. Just remember that unlike a projectile it's implied you can shoot the bead wherever you want. It's presumably not subject to gravity, wind speed, drag, and factors like how smoothly you released the string or trigger on your weapon; the things that add a lot of randomness to each shot.
I agree with InquisitiveCoder on the above, unless you are fighting a creature that is stated to "fill its space" (which isn't many of them), then you can effectively aim at or behind a creature and reasonably be assumed to have a line of effect there.
Hypothetically - you want to cast fireball behind a creature. The creature is 100 feet broad and deep (that's the space it occupies) - would you be allowed to?
To me the clearest rule is that you need to have full sight on the point where you want to put the spell. You also need an open path (windows will obstruct). When you're fighting tiny, small, medium and even some large creatures this is not a problem. But when you go up agains a huge (3x3) creature or larger I would think that they would stop the spell caster from casting "behind" such a creature. I'm looking for a clearer rule here to avoid the player's question "can I cast the fireball at this point" every time it is used. It would give us the same understanding of how it can be used. Is this too punishing?
Have you seen a Tarrasque? There's a lot of free space between its legs. Again, most creatures aren't box-shaped; bipeds tend to occupy a narrow vertical slice of their combat space, while quadrupeds tend to occupy a narrow horizontal slice.
In practice, you can almost always shoot over a creature if it's about your height, under if it's much larger, or between two creatures even if their combat spaces are adjacent because a lot of their space is empty space. In all my years of playing I've rarely seen situations where Fireball couldn't be aimed strategically; it's far more common for the caster to decide they can't hit enough targets to be worth the cost.
Can there be situations where this is an issue? Sure. If a gargantuan creature is prone on the ground you're probably not going to be able to shoot past it at ground level. But that's a very unusual situation. By default, creatures only provide half cover, and the DM shouldn't adjust the level of cover to total cover unless the creatures are literally forming an unpassable wall that never presents any gaps. The caster should almost always have at least a chance to shoot past creatures, and the spell should detonate early if it happens to encounter an obstruction along the way:
A Clear Path to the Target
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can't be behind total cover.
If you place an area of effect at a point that you can't see and an obstruction, such as a wall, is between you and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of that obstruction.
In fact that's precisely what would happen in earlier editions. Here's an excerpt from the 3.5e version of the spell:
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
5e just streamlines things because you're unlikely to need to resort to this, the DMG already gives you advice on when to call for an attack roll and an optional rule for hitting cover, and the spellcasting rules already tell you what happens when an area spell encounters an obstruction.
Hypothetically - you want to cast fireball behind a creature. The creature is 100 feet broad and deep (that's the space it occupies) - would you be allowed to?
To me the clearest rule is that you need to have full sight on the point where you want to put the spell. You also need an open path (windows will obstruct). When you're fighting tiny, small, medium and even some large creatures this is not a problem. But when you go up agains a huge (3x3) creature or larger I would think that they would stop the spell caster from casting "behind" such a creature. I'm looking for a clearer rule here to avoid the player's question "can I cast the fireball at this point" every time it is used. It would give us the same understanding of how it can be used. Is this too punishing?
The answer is maybe. It is up to the DM.
The PHB requirement is that you need a line of effect to the targeted point of the spell. This doesn't need to be there all the time. It just needs to be present at the moment the spell completes. Most creatures do not fully occupy the space listed e.g. a Huge Giant is not a 15'x15'x15' block. They have arms and legs and all that is needed is a momentarily clear line of effect when the character casts the spell - so 90% of the time or more, a creature will not block the casting of a spell.
Creatures providing 1/2 or 3/4 cover do not block casting. Total cover does block casting. If a DM rules that a creature provides Total Cover for the point where the caster wants to target their fireball then then line of effect is blocked and the fireball will go off when it hits the cover. However, if this is an obstruction that the character can see then they KNOW that the line of effect is blocked and can choose to cast something else.
If there happened to be a gargantuan creature between you and your target point ... perhaps a purple worm for example ... then a DM would simply let the player know that points on the other side have total cover from the character's current position and the character can then make reasonable target selection decisions for their spells based on the information available.
I agree with all of you. A creature would not necessarily block but it could. So that leaves me with still having to have the debate “Can I set the target here?” Everytime the player wants to put it behind a creature which means that I need to come up with an arbitrary ruling everytime this happens. I could introduce a die roll to see if the creature’s in the way or not or I could also simply decide that you cannot place it behind a creature. I’ll see what we decide to do. What seems fair to my group. Thanks for everyone’s time. Cheers!
In general if you figure the monster would provide total cover (and, unless transparent, total concealment), it would also block line of effect for spells. Most monsters don't, though there are exceptions; a gelatinous cube does entirely fill a 10' hallway, for example.
I agree with all of you. A creature would not necessarily block but it could. So that leaves me with still having to have the debate “Can I set the target here?” Everytime the player wants to put it behind a creature which means that I need to come up with an arbitrary ruling everytime this happens. I could introduce a die roll to see if the creature’s in the way or not or I could also simply decide that you cannot place it behind a creature. I’ll see what we decide to do. What seems fair to my group. Thanks for everyone’s time. Cheers!
I don't think you have to consider it an arbitrary ruling. It can, and should, be a ruling informed by the specific situation.
To my mind, the general rule is yes, you can target a spot behind the enemies, but there are circumstances which might make that impossible. It could be that the enemy is somehow filling the space completely, so you can't get around them. It could be that they are backed against the wall, so you can't put it 15 feet behind them like you might want to. It could be something else. None or those is arbitrary, they're just responding to the circumstances.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
It’s one of the most iconic spells in d&d. But how do you handle it?
the description says place it anywhere you want within range and detonate in the 20’ radius. Everyone in there takes damage.
Questions - do you allow spell placement behind a monster (can they see that point? Is a glimps enough or would you consider the player having an unobstructed point for the full action time in order to place it at a certain location?
Can you place it in the empty air? Seems like you can. This is an easy way of bypassing the obstruction of another creature. How do you handle this?
Second one first, because it’s easier. Yes You can target empty air. In fact, since you target a point and not a creature or object, it is by definition always going to be in the empty air.
As far as behind a monster, also yes. Even though an enemy might occupy a five foot square (or whatever size), they don’t completely fill the square, there’s always space around them. So while a fireball does create a “bright streak” of energy that streaks toward the point you chose, there’s going to be plenty of room for that streak to go around the monster. Since no attack roll is involved, rules for cover do not apply as far as a minus to hit.
Now, the bright streak can’t go around corners, or through walls or other examples of total cover (some DMs might allow an exception and let it go through something like a keyhole), but the explosion can and does go around corners. So you can target the empty air at the end of a hallway to hit target around a corner, but you can’t make the center point be around the corner.
Correct.
Unless you're fighting a gelatinous cube in hallway that's precisely 5 feet tall and 5 feet wide, aiming past a creature shouldn't be an issue. Most of a creature's space is empty; they're not box-shaped and some of that space is accounted for by the threat of getting hit.. Besides, ranged weapons can shoot past creatures as well (with half cover.)
Yes, you can. There's no requirement to choose a point that's on a creature, object or surface.
As described in the spell. The caster chooses a point and that's where the explosion occurs. That's all you need to use the spell 99/100 times. In the rare event a player wants to try something extra tricky like passing the bead through a small hole 100 feet away, you can simply call for an attack roll against AC 10 or something to add a small chance of failure. Just remember that unlike a projectile it's implied you can shoot the bead wherever you want. It's presumably not subject to gravity, wind speed, drag, and factors like how smoothly you released the string or trigger on your weapon; the things that add a lot of randomness to each shot.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I agree with InquisitiveCoder on the above, unless you are fighting a creature that is stated to "fill its space" (which isn't many of them), then you can effectively aim at or behind a creature and reasonably be assumed to have a line of effect there.
Hypothetically - you want to cast fireball behind a creature. The creature is 100 feet broad and deep (that's the space it occupies) - would you be allowed to?
To me the clearest rule is that you need to have full sight on the point where you want to put the spell. You also need an open path (windows will obstruct). When you're fighting tiny, small, medium and even some large creatures this is not a problem. But when you go up agains a huge (3x3) creature or larger I would think that they would stop the spell caster from casting "behind" such a creature. I'm looking for a clearer rule here to avoid the player's question "can I cast the fireball at this point" every time it is used. It would give us the same understanding of how it can be used. Is this too punishing?
In the air: Yes.
Behind a creature: Yes.
You don't deal with Fireball. You use it against your party and you counter-spell it where appropriate.
You spread enemies out and bring single enemies or enemies with fire resistance to bear.
Can there be situations where this is an issue? Sure. If a gargantuan creature is prone on the ground you're probably not going to be able to shoot past it at ground level. But that's a very unusual situation. By default, creatures only provide half cover, and the DM shouldn't adjust the level of cover to total cover unless the creatures are literally forming an unpassable wall that never presents any gaps. The caster should almost always have at least a chance to shoot past creatures, and the spell should detonate early if it happens to encounter an obstruction along the way:
In fact that's precisely what would happen in earlier editions. Here's an excerpt from the 3.5e version of the spell:
5e just streamlines things because you're unlikely to need to resort to this, the DMG already gives you advice on when to call for an attack roll and an optional rule for hitting cover, and the spellcasting rules already tell you what happens when an area spell encounters an obstruction.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
The answer is maybe. It is up to the DM.
The PHB requirement is that you need a line of effect to the targeted point of the spell. This doesn't need to be there all the time. It just needs to be present at the moment the spell completes. Most creatures do not fully occupy the space listed e.g. a Huge Giant is not a 15'x15'x15' block. They have arms and legs and all that is needed is a momentarily clear line of effect when the character casts the spell - so 90% of the time or more, a creature will not block the casting of a spell.
Creatures providing 1/2 or 3/4 cover do not block casting. Total cover does block casting. If a DM rules that a creature provides Total Cover for the point where the caster wants to target their fireball then then line of effect is blocked and the fireball will go off when it hits the cover. However, if this is an obstruction that the character can see then they KNOW that the line of effect is blocked and can choose to cast something else.
If there happened to be a gargantuan creature between you and your target point ... perhaps a purple worm for example ... then a DM would simply let the player know that points on the other side have total cover from the character's current position and the character can then make reasonable target selection decisions for their spells based on the information available.
I agree with all of you. A creature would not necessarily block but it could. So that leaves me with still having to have the debate “Can I set the target here?” Everytime the player wants to put it behind a creature which means that I need to come up with an arbitrary ruling everytime this happens. I could introduce a die roll to see if the creature’s in the way or not or I could also simply decide that you cannot place it behind a creature. I’ll see what we decide to do. What seems fair to my group. Thanks for everyone’s time. Cheers!
In general if you figure the monster would provide total cover (and, unless transparent, total concealment), it would also block line of effect for spells. Most monsters don't, though there are exceptions; a gelatinous cube does entirely fill a 10' hallway, for example.
I don't think you have to consider it an arbitrary ruling. It can, and should, be a ruling informed by the specific situation.
To my mind, the general rule is yes, you can target a spot behind the enemies, but there are circumstances which might make that impossible. It could be that the enemy is somehow filling the space completely, so you can't get around them. It could be that they are backed against the wall, so you can't put it 15 feet behind them like you might want to. It could be something else. None or those is arbitrary, they're just responding to the circumstances.