I try to stick to the confines fo the Spellcasting variant so far as spell levels and number of slots go. But then I overcomplicate my own life by backwards engineering the caster level that matches up with those confines and customise the spell listing to suit the caster type I'm goin for. I will also add Action Oriented options to Dragons and add Legendary Actions. Of course that does mean more complications in adjusting the CR, but it makes for a more dynamic combat encounter. Also makes the players sweat not knowing what to expect going in. And the expression of discovery when the players/PCs figure out what mystery class that was added is worth it to me.
@ OP, Probably just your bias showing through. Recommendations are just that. Recommendations. One might be able to argue that more options given by designers might allow us to flavor the monsters we use and have a template to work from that doesn't alter balance too much. After all, the statblocks that are in any of the books are just templates for us to customize as we deem neccessary. Smashing two stat blocks together removes the limiter on the type of creatures that you can have in your game.
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“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I picked spells that matched the destructive rages these creatures are supposed to have as well as try to make use of it's concentration and reactions. All the spells I picked would certainly be used by a DM during a combat. I imagine a adult red breathing fire, dropping a few fireballs at range and then throwing down a wall of fire and engaging in melee right in the middle of it. I'd even be willing to swap out fireball for something defensive like fire shield.
Fizban's suggests several very weak picks. Bane? An adult red's fire breath DC is 21! Why use this instead of breathing straight away? Dominate Person? A dragon is going to blow it's action to mind control one PC only to have it dispelled immediately? Suggestion? A single target 2nd level spell? When a dragon could be casting geas, dominate person, or incite greed instead?
What about more defensive spells? An adult red dragon can still be forcecaged. Maybe dimension door would be a better option? Dispel magic or counterspell? Blink!
Fizban's is a book about dragons. Large sections of it are devoted to how a DM might use one in their campaign. Unfortunately, the amount of space devoted to dragons as spellcasters is inadequate and unhelpful. Newer DMs might take the advice and either their dragon will never cast a spell or will do so only for it to have no impact. More experienced DMs will ignore these suggestions altogether.
The question for spellcasting dragons is whether you pick spells for being useful to the dragon, or you pick spells for being thematic for the dragon. Thematic spells are often redundant with the dragon's innate abilities and thus pretty useless, spells picked for real utility may significantly alter CR. For example, giving a dragon Shield means you're suddenly dealing with AC 23+.
The question for spellcasting dragons is whether you pick spells for being useful to the dragon, or you pick spells for being thematic for the dragon. Thematic spells are often redundant with the dragon's innate abilities and thus pretty useless, spells picked for real utility may significantly alter CR. For example, giving a dragon Shield means you're suddenly dealing with AC 23+.
Good point. I almost think the more utility spells should be listed somewhere other than the stat block. If the intention is to make dragons easier to run then maybe some spells should be region effects. Specifically I am thinking of spells like speak with animals or scrying. Maybe items like these should be listed in a 'non combat' section of the stat block. Even abilities not available to a dragon if away from their lair.
Another example of the maddeningly stupid recommendations in Fizban's...Green Dragons
Fizban's suggests the following for an adult green dragon.
Seriously? An adult green dragon can cast up to 5th level spells! Again no 'cast at x level' even mentioned. I mean it might make sense for a green to cast invisibility on a handful of elite dragonborn body guards but why would it just cast invisibility at 2nd level when greater invisibility is an option? And plant growth? Green dragon's already have a similar lair action. Again no thought was put into this at all and, again, newish DM's will scratch their heads at this while experienced DM's disregard it.
The obnoxious weakness of green dragons is that defense against poison is really easy to acquire -- level 2 protection from poison, in extremes level 6 heroes' feast, and there's also a bunch of summons that are immune to poison.
The obnoxious weakness of green dragons is that defense against poison is really easy to acquire -- level 2 protection from poison, in extremes level 6 heroes' feast, and there's also a bunch of summons that are immune to poison.
The is true to an extent but in my experience this is more a problem for PC's using poison on monsters. I haven't noticed the opposite being as big an issue. Even in the case of a party with a couple dwarves. I think resistance against fire or necrotic come up more when monsters are attacking PCs but maybe I see more tieflings, dragonborn and Aasimar as player choices.
I try to stick to the confines fo the Spellcasting variant so far as spell levels and number of slots go. But then I overcomplicate my own life by backwards engineering the caster level that matches up with those confines and customise the spell listing to suit the caster type I'm goin for. I will also add Action Oriented options to Dragons and add Legendary Actions. Of course that does mean more complications in adjusting the CR, but it makes for a more dynamic combat encounter. Also makes the players sweat not knowing what to expect going in. And the expression of discovery when the players/PCs figure out what mystery class that was added is worth it to me.
@ OP, Probably just your bias showing through. Recommendations are just that. Recommendations. One might be able to argue that more options given by designers might allow us to flavor the monsters we use and have a template to work from that doesn't alter balance too much. After all, the statblocks that are in any of the books are just templates for us to customize as we deem neccessary. Smashing two stat blocks together removes the limiter on the type of creatures that you can have in your game.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
No doubt I am slightly biased but the spell recommendations in Fizban's are odd at best. I think most of them are legacy from previous editions.
Let me discuss. Here are my suggestions for a Adult Red Dragon.
Hellish Rebuke (cast at 5th level) 2/day
Wall of Fire (cast at 5th level) 1/day
Fireball (cast at 5th level) 2/day
Fizban's recommends the following (without specifying what level they might be cast at)
bane, dominate person, heat metal, hypnotic pattern, suggestion
I picked spells that matched the destructive rages these creatures are supposed to have as well as try to make use of it's concentration and reactions. All the spells I picked would certainly be used by a DM during a combat. I imagine a adult red breathing fire, dropping a few fireballs at range and then throwing down a wall of fire and engaging in melee right in the middle of it. I'd even be willing to swap out fireball for something defensive like fire shield.
Fizban's suggests several very weak picks. Bane? An adult red's fire breath DC is 21! Why use this instead of breathing straight away? Dominate Person? A dragon is going to blow it's action to mind control one PC only to have it dispelled immediately? Suggestion? A single target 2nd level spell? When a dragon could be casting geas, dominate person, or incite greed instead?
What about more defensive spells? An adult red dragon can still be forcecaged. Maybe dimension door would be a better option? Dispel magic or counterspell? Blink!
Fizban's is a book about dragons. Large sections of it are devoted to how a DM might use one in their campaign. Unfortunately, the amount of space devoted to dragons as spellcasters is inadequate and unhelpful. Newer DMs might take the advice and either their dragon will never cast a spell or will do so only for it to have no impact. More experienced DMs will ignore these suggestions altogether.
I expected more to be frank.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
The question for spellcasting dragons is whether you pick spells for being useful to the dragon, or you pick spells for being thematic for the dragon. Thematic spells are often redundant with the dragon's innate abilities and thus pretty useless, spells picked for real utility may significantly alter CR. For example, giving a dragon Shield means you're suddenly dealing with AC 23+.
Good point. I almost think the more utility spells should be listed somewhere other than the stat block. If the intention is to make dragons easier to run then maybe some spells should be region effects. Specifically I am thinking of spells like speak with animals or scrying. Maybe items like these should be listed in a 'non combat' section of the stat block. Even abilities not available to a dragon if away from their lair.
Another example of the maddeningly stupid recommendations in Fizban's...Green Dragons
Fizban's suggests the following for an adult green dragon.
invisibility, plant growth, speak with animals
Seriously? An adult green dragon can cast up to 5th level spells! Again no 'cast at x level' even mentioned. I mean it might make sense for a green to cast invisibility on a handful of elite dragonborn body guards but why would it just cast invisibility at 2nd level when greater invisibility is an option? And plant growth? Green dragon's already have a similar lair action. Again no thought was put into this at all and, again, newish DM's will scratch their heads at this while experienced DM's disregard it.
So much opportunity lost in Fizban's.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
Thanks. I’m upgrading Venomfang.
Lol, it's funny you mentioned that! I'm about to set a adult green Venomfang on my PCs. Do you plan on going with my suggestions or your own?
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
The obnoxious weakness of green dragons is that defense against poison is really easy to acquire -- level 2 protection from poison, in extremes level 6 heroes' feast, and there's also a bunch of summons that are immune to poison.
The is true to an extent but in my experience this is more a problem for PC's using poison on monsters. I haven't noticed the opposite being as big an issue. Even in the case of a party with a couple dwarves. I think resistance against fire or necrotic come up more when monsters are attacking PCs but maybe I see more tieflings, dragonborn and Aasimar as player choices.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats