In Xanathar's guide the chapter on tool proficiencies says as an optional rule if a tool proficiency and a skill proficiency could both apply to a roll then give the player advantage on the roll.
"Advantage. If the use of a tool and the use of a skill both apply to a check, and a character is proficient with the tool and the skill, consider allowing the character to make the check with advantage."
I like this optional rule and I think I'll run with it but can't decide how to handle lock picking. The PHB says lock picking is a dexterity(thieves tools) ability check so doesn't actual relate to a skill. To use this rule and apply it to lock picking I would have to decide to apply a specific skill to a lock picking roll. Mostly the decision on what skill to use with this could be down to context, like if a character wanted to get into a locked drawer whilst distracting an NPC you could do Dexterity(Deception)+(Thieves tools) for example, or if they wanted to unlock a gate in a guarded courtyard at night I could call for a Dexterity(Stealth)+(Thieves tools).
But my question is a straight forward locked door in an unguarded location where neither noise or speed is a huge issue, I can't apply a skill to that. Which would not give a player advantage and actually make it harder to do than the previous examples. So if you had to apply a skill to lock picking, what would it be? With justification.
I'd use the same as was used, unless my memory is worse than I thought (which could be) in 3rd edition: Sleight of Hand.
I haven't really checked the description in 5th, but I consider this skill to be an indicator of the tactile sensibility of the character, the "finesse" of their hands and the precision of them, all things that come in handy when lockpicking.
Otherwise, you could also use Perception or maybe Investigation as the art of lockpicking relies a lot on perceiving the slight variations and vibrations coming from the lockpicks, and the sounds the lock is making so in a way "searching" for the right spot/movement.
You can use the rule, but decide that normal lock picking doesn't align with a skill at all. Even with this rule there remain checks that involve tools, checks that involve skills, and checks that involve both. Say you want to construct a magic pot for use as a philactery or whatever - that could be Arcana plus Potter's Tools. But if you are making a regular vase, then that should just be Potter's Tools. Picking a normal lock can remain a tool-only check. Only bring a skill into it for crazy complex mechanisms: +Arcana for a magic lock, +Investigation for a puzzle lock, +Sleight of Hand for a hair-trigger trap. These things could have a higher DC, but the character who is perfectly prepared to face this challenge will be able to handle it while those with just the Tool proficiency would struggle.
Lek, I like the perception idea and investigation, that's a good ruling.
RegentCorreon, yeah I get what you're saying but using this particular variant, unless you tie lock picking to a specific skill, it would end up that a character with proficiency in say arcana and thieves tools, who is picking a magical lock with Dex+Arcana proficiency+Thieves proficiency, would find it harder to pick a non magical lock using just Dex+thieves proficiency.
I think I'll go with leks idea, perception or investigation depending on the lock.
... it would end up that a character with proficiency in say arcana and thieves tools, who is picking a magical lock with Dex+Arcana proficiency+Thieves proficiency, would find it harder to pick a non magical lock using just Dex+thieves proficiency.
Maybe. Haven't really done the maths on it, but at that point it comes down to the DC. Say a regular lock has a DC of 15, and the same lock but enchanted is DC 20. The DM decides that either thieves tools or Arcana would help to unlock this. Normal rules for someone with the Tool proficiency would give them no bonus if they also have arcana against that magic lock - a regular burglar, a non-thief wizard, and a specialised Arcane Trickster would all be on even footing. Varient rules suggest having multiple applicable skill proficiencies grant proficiency bonus plus advantage, thus the Arcane Trickster is the only one who gets the added bonus. I guess I'm saying that any task which could feasibly require more than one proficiency should be an inherently more complex task (DC at least 5 higher than the regular equivalent). Now the burglar can handle the normal lock (Dex+Prf vs 15) but struggles with the enchantments (Dex+Prf vs 20); the wizard struggles with either lock (Dex vs 15) but those enchantments add no extra difficulty (Dex+Prf vs 20); only the Specialist is rewarded for their extra skills (Dex+Prf+Adv vs 20).
In Xanathar's guide the chapter on tool proficiencies says as an optional rule if a tool proficiency and a skill proficiency could both apply to a roll then give the player advantage on the roll.
"Advantage. If the use of a tool and the use of a skill both apply to a check, and a character is proficient with the tool and the skill, consider allowing the character to make the check with advantage."
I like this optional rule and I think I'll run with it but can't decide how to handle lock picking. The PHB says lock picking is a dexterity(thieves tools) ability check so doesn't actual relate to a skill. To use this rule and apply it to lock picking I would have to decide to apply a specific skill to a lock picking roll. Mostly the decision on what skill to use with this could be down to context, like if a character wanted to get into a locked drawer whilst distracting an NPC you could do Dexterity(Deception)+(Thieves tools) for example, or if they wanted to unlock a gate in a guarded courtyard at night I could call for a Dexterity(Stealth)+(Thieves tools).
But my question is a straight forward locked door in an unguarded location where neither noise or speed is a huge issue, I can't apply a skill to that. Which would not give a player advantage and actually make it harder to do than the previous examples. So if you had to apply a skill to lock picking, what would it be? With justification.
I'd use the same as was used, unless my memory is worse than I thought (which could be) in 3rd edition: Sleight of Hand.
I haven't really checked the description in 5th, but I consider this skill to be an indicator of the tactile sensibility of the character, the "finesse" of their hands and the precision of them, all things that come in handy when lockpicking.
Otherwise, you could also use Perception or maybe Investigation as the art of lockpicking relies a lot on perceiving the slight variations and vibrations coming from the lockpicks, and the sounds the lock is making so in a way "searching" for the right spot/movement.
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You can use the rule, but decide that normal lock picking doesn't align with a skill at all. Even with this rule there remain checks that involve tools, checks that involve skills, and checks that involve both. Say you want to construct a magic pot for use as a philactery or whatever - that could be Arcana plus Potter's Tools. But if you are making a regular vase, then that should just be Potter's Tools. Picking a normal lock can remain a tool-only check. Only bring a skill into it for crazy complex mechanisms: +Arcana for a magic lock, +Investigation for a puzzle lock, +Sleight of Hand for a hair-trigger trap. These things could have a higher DC, but the character who is perfectly prepared to face this challenge will be able to handle it while those with just the Tool proficiency would struggle.
Lek, I like the perception idea and investigation, that's a good ruling.
RegentCorreon, yeah I get what you're saying but using this particular variant, unless you tie lock picking to a specific skill, it would end up that a character with proficiency in say arcana and thieves tools, who is picking a magical lock with Dex+Arcana proficiency+Thieves proficiency, would find it harder to pick a non magical lock using just Dex+thieves proficiency.
I think I'll go with leks idea, perception or investigation depending on the lock.
I think this works well for things like performance proficiency plus instrument proficiency, where the two work together.
I don't see it working with thieve's tools. Those just let you do something you couldn't do otherwise - they don't have an independent function.